"We should just enforce the existing gun laws better"

[BlueStreak]

How many times have you heard gun extremists say those words?

Today, because of the gun show exception, we have essentially no laws on the acquisition side of the equation. There are laws, but they are easily circumvented such that it is generally just the low-risk gun owners who actually follow those laws. 40% of the sales are outside of any law.

That means the only laws that really govern here are the punishments after the fact.

And there is the problem. In almost every case of the shooting sprees, the perp ends up dead, usually by his own hand. In fact, the act is usually planned with the expectation that it will end in the shooter's death. How could an after-the-fact punishment do any good?

In all the discussion I have heard on the MSM in the past week, I have not heard that fact mentioned, and it seems like a pretty important one.

[villager]

1. The proliferationists hate it when/if that actually happens, then applaud the NRA...

...when they sue to get whatever tepid gun laws that do exist, off the books.

And yeah, they can go tell the parents of those dead kids that had the gunman lived, he would surely have been arrested!

[gejohnston]

2. they say it when talking about

day to day criminal killing other criminal often in the drug trade, which is fueled and funded by the drug culture.
Has nothing to do with spree murders. Completely different issue.
It isn't a gun show exception, it is a private sales exception.

That means the only laws that really govern here are the punishments after the fact.

that is the way they all work, unless you think Minority Report was a documentary.

[BlueStreak]

4. "that is the way they all work". Not in other countries

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. But if you are saying that is how all gun laws work, that is completely wrong. The USA is the exception to the rule among "advanced" nations.

[gejohnston]

8. and if you violate those laws, you are punished after the fact

they don't prevent anyone from committing crimes.

[BlueStreak]

13. That is simply not true. These laws are preemptive

If there is a background check of all gun sales, that is preemptive. They has a chance of stopping a high-risk person from having a gun.

That is fundamentally different from a law that says you go to prison if you shoot somebody.

Look, I get that you don't like gun laws. I get that you are willing to put up with tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths each year in exchange for your "right" not to have any regulations. There is nothing more to discuss. About 80% of the country disagrees with you.

[gejohnston]

15. not at all,

and I am for gun laws, nor am I willing to up with ten thousand unnecessary deaths each year. You don't grasp what the laws are or how the system works. Like the quote from the ATF official that may or may not have been complete. He described willful violations of the law. I said those dealers for profit without an FFL should go to jail. The Attorney General and the Treasury Sec should be asking why that isn't happening. I gave suggestions on how to fix the private sale issue, among other things, did you read them?

[sarisataka]

3. Nightline

did a whole segment on the 'gun show loophole' last night. These MSM always seem to find the dishonest dealers. Not to say that they are not out there, but here is a local free paper that has no interest either way, but is very liberal, left biased

Testing Minnesota's gun show loophole
How easy is it to buy a firearm in the Twin Cities?
http://www.citypages.com/2010-06-03/news/testing-minnesota-s-gun-show-loophole/

That means the only laws that really govern here are the punishments after the fact.

Isn't this how all laws work? Insider trading is not prevented by the laws, it still happens; we punish those who do it after the fact.

[BlueStreak]

5. Q: "Isn't this how all laws work?" A: No.

Look at Israel's gun control laws for example. They are focused on keeping guns out of hte hands of people that pose a risk. That is before the fact -- preemptive.

Applicants for a gun owner’s license in Israel are required to prove genuine reason to possess a firearm, for example, self-defense, hunting and sport

The minimum age for gun ownership in Israel is 27 years and 21 years if served in the military

An applicant for a firearm license in Israel must pass background checks which consider health, mental and criminal records

In Israel gun owners must re-apply and re-qualify for their firearm license every 3 years

In Israel, authorities maintain a record of individual civilians licensed to acquire, possess, sell or transfer a firearm or ammunition

A licensed firearm owner in Israel is permitted to possess a limited quantity of ammunition

[sarisataka]

10. Not that I do not support Israel

or the Palestinians, IMO they have equal claims on the same land

Applicants for a gun owner’s license in Israel are required to prove genuine reason to possess a firearm, for example, self-defense, hunting and sport

So a Palestinian and a native Israeli go to apply for a permit for self defense-- both will walk out with their permits?

The minimum age for gun ownership in Israel is 27 years and 21 years if served in the military

All Israeli citizens serve in the military so who is excluded...

An applicant for a firearm license in Israel must pass background checks which consider health, mental and criminal records

Great idea, let's adopt it

In Israel gun owners must re-apply and re-qualify for their firearm license every 3 years

Difficult to push through and I have some reservations, but it is an idea to serious consider

In Israel, authorities maintain a record of individual civilians licensed to acquire, possess, sell or transfer a firearm or ammunition

we do also, there is more than one type of FFL. Open NCIS to everyone

A licensed firearm owner in Israel is permitted to possess a limited quantity of ammunition

Logical on the surface but how many shootings did the quantity of ammo actually matter? I can think of one, maybe two

[BlueStreak]

11. It is not about Newtown, CT

That is just the flavor of the month. Gun violence happens every day everywhere in the country at level that puts us right up there with Honduras and Mexico. Yes, it is tragic that 20 small children were gunned down. It is just as tragic that bunch of adults were killed in the same spree. And it is just as tragic, all the killing that the MSM never bothers to even talk about any more.

[sarisataka]

18. I fully agree about the tragedy

I would rather not waste the opportunity (again) to do something that may change the numbers for better. Dipping into the same old well or other 'feel good's will waste this chance. I fear the window to craft effective legislation will be open for a short time before everyone goes back to their favorite do nothing stances.
That would be an even greater tragedy.

[jody]

6. "gun show exception" and "gun show loophole" are misleading. What is meant is "private sales".

The fact that a "private sale" occurs in the vicinity of a gun show does not make it any different than a "private sale" anywhere else.

For example in California:

I want to sell a gun to another person, i.e., a private party transfer. Am I required to conduct the transaction through a licensed California firearms dealer?

Yes. Firearm sales must be conducted through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The buyer (and seller, in the event that the; buyer is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements. "Antique firearms," as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement.

See http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#14

[Recursion]

7. "There are laws, but they are easily circumvented"

Isn't that the same thing the "gun extremists" are saying?

We keep passing difficult-to-enforce laws and then complain, on the one side, that they aren't being enforced, and on the other that they aren't solving the problems.

40% of the sales are outside of any law.

This is simply false. I'd love to see changes in private sales, but there are currently laws governing them.

[randr]

9. We need laws to prosecute the sellers of arms

without background checks and to people who use them to commit crimes.

[BlueStreak]

12. You can't prosecute it if it isn't illegal. That was the crux of the

"Fast and Furious" thing. Officials observed gun sales that needed to be stopped, but our laws said it was was legal. Or at least they were unable to persuade any prosecutors to tile at that windmill.

[gejohnston]

14. Actually, that wasn't the case with Fast and Furious

The ATF had video of money changing hands to straw buyers, and straw buyers buying the guns and handing them over. That was a provable case of violating the Gun Control Act, the US attorney in Arizona was too busy looking for "voter fraud" to press the issue. Bush's US attorney resigned in disgrace over it.

[Atypical Liberal]

17. Yeah that's not true for F&F at all.

The gun shops knew they were illegal straw purchases but the BATFE told them to let them proceed.

Charitably, this was so that the guns could be tracked. But no one ever attempted to track the guns once they crossed the border and no Mexican ATF field office was notified of the supposed program.

Best guess right now is that these were arms shipments to the Sinaloa cartel through civilian channels. Helps tip the balance of power against the Zetas who have a shot at actually achieving a coup agains Mexican authorities and you can damn civilian sales of guns at the same time. A win-win.

[Atypical Liberal]

16. It's not a "gun show exception".

I wish people would use the correct terminology, because it paints the problem in a much smaller light to call it a "gun show exception".

It has nothing to do with gun shows.

It is about private sales everywhere. If you think the problem is just a gun show problem, I suggest you open your local newspaper classified ads and look in the Sporting Goods section.

The problem here is that the federal government cannot regulate intra-state commerce, and most states do not regulate private firearm sales.

This needs to change.

[beevul]

19. Welcome to a free society.

"That means the only laws that really govern here are the punishments after the fact."

Laws that don't contain "prior restraint", all work that way for the most part.