Concealed carry wins in Illinois, White folks cheer

[DainBramaged]

The poor remain poor while the NRA and gun manufacturers reap the rewards of paranoia.

[RegieRocker]

1. Spread your propaganda elsewhere

[DainBramaged]

6. Goodbye Reggie

you are as easy to spot as your buddies here.

[RegieRocker]

41. Right back at ya of course.

[slackmaster]

2. Race-baiting belongs in GD, not this group

[Starboard Tack]

9. Really? "Race-baiting belongs in GD"? Very interesting.

[hack89]

3. This Black man is cheering too

Ald. Howard Brookins, 21st, chairman of the City Council black caucus, welcomed the decision, saying allowing Chicagoans to carry concealed weapons would help level the playing field in neighborhoods where law-abiding citizens feel like they need firearms to protect themselves.

"Certain people will have a sense of safety and peace of mind in the ability to do it," Brookins said of conceal-carry. "I know that even people, for example, just trying to see that their loved ones get homes safely are in technical violation of all sorts of weapons violations. If you just walk out to your garage and see that your wife is coming in the house safely, and you happen to have your gun on you, you're in technical violation of our ordinance. So I would hope all these ordinances would be consolidated so there's one set of rules and people would know where the bright line is to what they can and cannot do with respect to carrying a weapon."

Brookins said he's not worried doing away with the state ban would lead to an increase in gun violence as more people walk the streets with weapons. "I think those people have a gun now, they've just been made criminals because they can't legally have it," Brookins said. "And I think the gangbangers and thugs are going to have a gun regardless."

Do you really think there is a place for race baiting at DU? Shame on you.

[Starboard Tack]

10. He must've been too busy to get in the photo.

[hack89]

12. Yes - he is busy looking out for the interests of his constituents.

unlike you.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

57. As is this one

[Eleanors38]

4. Perfect exp. of racist argument in support of gun prohibition.

You do know what the reporter (gun-controller) Sherril said upon passage of Gun Control Act of 1968? Look it up.

[-..__...]

5. He did...

but it was locked (and rightly so)...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1965383

What I find amusing, is that there are some rather vocal and shrill posters over in Meta, that become infuriated when a firearms related thread is posted in GD.

Okay... no problem, but when it does happen, the blame guilt is put-upon the DU 2nd amendment advocates for sullying GD, when it's the anti's here that started it in GD to begin with.

figure that one out.

[sarisataka]

13. It is because

If you support the 2A as written and affirmed, you are not a good Democrat™ and are only tolerated if you remember your place.
Youare not welcome where THOSE WHO KNOW BETTER talk. It is only open go those who agree with the posters.
Should you have the audacity to use the front door and debate with the adults, you shall be pilloried in meta, accused of being a RW troll, witchcraft (though that is accepted FAR more than those who agree with our President's own words) and listen to the whining that everyone is tired of hearing about guns-that they started talking about.

[armueller2001]

7. One lady kind of looks hispanic..

Just sayin.

[Lizzie Poppet]

8. Stupidly playing a spurious "race card" dilutes genuine arguments against racism.

Guess what? The people of color of my acquaintance own firearms, too. Imagine that...

[Starboard Tack]

11. I think the key qualifier there is "of my acquaintance"

The other is "own" which has zero to do with the OP, which is all about CC.

[Lizzie Poppet]

15. Two who are rather good friends do indeed CC.

I don't claim to have a representative sample set here...and in fact "goth/industrial scene" folks, regardless of race, tend to be rather more commonly armed than average. We're overwhelmingly liberal...but very commonly gun owners, too. Lots of CCW permits in "the scene."

[Starboard Tack]

17. Thanks for the info. I'll bear that in mind.

Didn't notice too many from the "scene" in the photo either. Just a bunch of happy white folk.

[Lizzie Poppet]

18. Well...it was daytime!

[Starboard Tack]

21. Good point!

Also makes it more understandable why you night creatures might want to be prepared for other less friendly night creatures. Stay safe Lizzie.

[apocalypsehow]

14. That's pretty much the size of it. Good post; Rec.

[DonP]

16. Why did you crop the photo so tightly?

I was at that I-GOLD march and that photo covered over 10,000 marchers and was several blocks long.

Otis McDonald was one of the march leaders. Why did you make sure and crop Mr. McDonald out of your post? Don't you like black people in a leadership position? Or only when they agree with you?

You've cropped the photo to show a handful of people on one edge of the whole picture.

Why would any honest person do that?

Silly question, you're far from an honest person.

[beevul]

20. Seriously Don. (uncropped version here)

Although, I'm sure the OP just "knows" there aren't any minorities anywhere in that crowd, even though the march appears to stretch at least half or 3 quarters of a mile (maybe longer).

Perhaps the cropping was an attempt at ...making the march seem smaller than it was, as well.

Wouldn't be wanting to show just how many people support such things now would we.

[Starboard Tack]

22. Looks very representative of Chicago. The great melting pot city.

1 in 3 should be African American.
1 in 5 should be Asian.

Looks like they all got shoved to the back.

[apocalypsehow]

25. Looks like the "cropped" photo was pretty representative of the uncropped one:

that's an all-white crowd.

By posting the "uncropped" photo, the OP's point has only been confirmed. Hoist on their own petard, all of that: funny stuff.

[gejohnston]

27. It wasn't in Chicago

and why would it be, since Springfield is the capitol and the issue is a state law and not a city ordnance. Since we are talking about people from around the state, which may or may not be representative of the entire state, the OP has no point. But frankly, I fail to see what race most of the people happen to be has anything to do with validity of their cause. The OP is either pushing "gun owners are white racists" meme or is a racist him or her self.

[Starboard Tack]

31. Wasn't in Chicago? So was it a march by folks who need guns to visit Chicago?

Maybe there's some other reason they might want to carry a gun.
I don't think he's pushing any racist meme. He's just pointing out that the whole CC thing is dominated by whites, which is true. Every white guy I have ever known personally, who carries a gun, has justified his carrying based on the possibility of having to defend himself against blacks. Admittedly, that's only half a dozen guys, but I have a feeling they are pretty representative of the white male CC crowd.
I also find it ironic that these same guys spend hours watching enormous black guys, their heroes, bounce and throw balls around, and occasionally get in a ring to beat the shit out of each other. 'tis a strange world we live in.

[gejohnston]

32. Chicago is not the only large city

and crime happens in small towns too. And yes, he was trying to push the racist meme. Unless of course, he was saying it wasn't a valid cause because most of the people are a particular race, which is racist. There are no other reasons for mentioning it.

Every white guy I have ever known personally, who carries a gun, has justified his carrying based on the possibility of having to defend himself against blacks. Admittedly, that's only half a dozen guys, but I have a feeling they are pretty representative of the white male CC crowd

No they are not, but then I found more overt racists in California than anywhere in the south. The ironic thing is that most crimes, including the vast majority of homicides, are intra-race. That is also true with self defense shootings in Florida, Less than 15 percent are inter race (either direction).

[Starboard Tack]

33. What is the racist meme he's pushing?

I've met overt racists in California too. Thankfully none carry guns AFAIK. All the guys I know who have either carried or kept a handgun in their vehicles were in the south, plus a few in W.Va. and Md..
Are you saying that CCP holders, in general, are not predominantly white males?
What percentage of crime killings are white on white?
What percentage of SD killings are white on black versus black on white?

[gejohnston]

35. the meme is that

Last edited Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:38 AM - Edit history (1)

What is the racist meme he's pushing?

That only whites are for liberalization because they fear "scary people of color".

Are you saying that CCP holders, in general, are not predominantly white males?

Not saying that at all. They probably are. I don't know any CCP holders in Florida, and I haven't taken a poll. I do know that in Wyoming, all of the concealed carriers I knew before liberalization ($800 fine for first offense, felony second offense) were women. Same is true today with Vermont light (only residents can carry without permit.) based on who I know back home. Race isn't relevant. If the demographics were different, would you have a different opinion on the Illinois law? Most Led Zepplin fans are white, most Rufus fans (I know, aging myself) are black but that doesn't have anything to do with the quality of their music.

What percentage of crime killings are white on white?

Murder or justifiable homicide? That Florida justifiable statistic I saw was about 65 percent. Have not seen one for murder, but I doubt it is much different.

What percentage of SD killings are white on black versus black on white?

IIRC, it was 15 percent white defender and 7 percent black defender. The rest were black on black. Of course, the actual evidence may vary.

fixed a couple of typos.

[GreenStormCloud]

42. Here is the breakdown for Texas, 2011.

CHLs issued

Whites ...86%
Blacks.......7%

"Other" makes up the remaining 7%. While blacks are greater than 7% of the population, the fact that 7% of the CHLs go to black persons does show that the black community is far from monolithic regarding guns.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/Reports/2011Calendar/byRace_Sex/1LicenseApplicationsIssued.pdf

[Starboard Tack]

43. Interesting. Thanks.

Blacks make up about 12% of the population in Texas and whites about 70% (non-hispanic whites are 45%). So there exists a serious imbalance in terms of who walks around armed.

[hack89]

45. So lets encourage more minorities to get CWW licenses. nt

[Starboard Tack]

47. Damn! Why didn't I think of that?

[hack89]

50. Lack of imagination perhaps? nt

[GreenStormCloud]

48. Main reasons for that:

Money - A CHL isn't cheap. You have to pay for the license, $140.00, the class (price varies somewhat) $70.00, 100 rounds of ammunition $55.00 (Price varies with caliber). Total - about $265.00. It is well known that the black community is in general poorer than other groups. That barrier also keeps a lot of poor whites out, too.

Disqualification - A far greater proportion of blacks have prison records, resulting in being disqualified.

Education - You have to pass the written test. Blacks still disproportionately underperform in school, resulting in poor performance on written tests.

[Starboard Tack]

58. So the bottom line is white folk with money get to carry the guns.

Doesn't sound too progressive to me.

[gejohnston]

60. anyone of any race and economic background can get the permit

Black folk with money can carry guns too unlike may issue states who have a history of institutional racism and slavery (Alabama and Maryland. In case you didn't know, four slave states stayed in the Union. They were Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, and Missouri).
as opposed to say, New York and California where each county does its own thing with no standards or set criteria. Some counties are de facto shall issue, some only give them to campaign contributers (Orange County) some are possibly racist (LA County) some give them to any one percenter including admitted cokehead and alcoholic Don Imus (NYC)
So, yeah that is progressive. Fix the economics and play something other than Hank Jr. at NRA conventions, it would be even more so.

[Starboard Tack]

71. Good point - "Black folk with money can carry guns too"

Not much has changed.

[GreenStormCloud]

63. That is a strong argument for Constitution Carry.

Constitution Carry allows concealed carry if you are a legal gun owner, no permit needed. Four states have it, and it hasn't been a problem in those four.

[Starboard Tack]

72. Which four states? And hasn't been a problem for who?

[GreenStormCloud]

73. Vermont, Alaska, Arizona, Wyoming.

It hasn't lead to all the disasters predicted by the gun-controllers. There has been no increase in gun crime, but instead the level of gun crime continued to decline.

[Starboard Tack]

79. Probably because nobody lives in 3 of those states.

And Arizona is one of the worst for gun killings.

[gejohnston]

74. Vermont never required a permit

and has always been the state with the laxest gun laws. Why? My theory is that it is the only state that did not have any racial or labor strife 100 years ago. While the recent UK bans have been knee jerk reactions to a mass shooting, most gun laws are about fear of or current political violence. Canada was fear of immigrants in the late 19th century and early 20th. Oka Crisis (Mohawks wanting their country back) and Quebec separatists in the 1970s. Europe after watching post WWI Germany.
Wyoming only residents can carry without permit. Since one is either in Mayberry or the woods, it really doesn't matter.
Arizona and Alaska.

[Clames]

52. Minority women are one of the fastest growing segments of CCW....

...permit holders in states like Texas. Not surprising you don't know that.

[Starboard Tack]

59. Got some numbers on that?

Fastest growing usually indicates very small numbers, but looks good for propaganda purposes. Like an increase from 20 to 60 would be 300%.

[gejohnston]

61. however, if the trend contunes

that small number becomes larger. BTW, I still don't get why race matters.

[Starboard Tack]

81. It has been pointed out frequently here that CC is supposedly progressive

because blacks were not permitted to carry in the segregated south. I find it interesting that most CCP holders today are still white males, especially in the south.

Concerning trends, they inevitably flatten out and then taper off. It will be interesting to see where this fad flattens out in terms of racial equality.

Race matters because blacks are still getting the raw end of the stick in this society and putting a Condoleeza Rice in the White House or issuing CCPs to handful of blacks in Texas isn't gonna change that.

[gejohnston]

82. neither could poor whites

or nonrich of any race in parts of California and New York today. The difference is if blacks tend to chose not to, that is their collective choice not to be second guessed, depending the reason. If it is due to some cultural reason, then so be it. Just like if TPTB in New York decided "Vermont has the right idea" few if any New Yorkers, especially in the city, would not take advantage of it because of culture. Neither of us should have problems with that. If part of the reason is a concern that CCW while black may be a fatal variation of driving while black, then we have to weed out bad cops, not point fingers at NRA or SAF.

However, if the reason is largely because of assholes like this guy:
http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/article/286869/8/Feds-arrest-Pasco-gun-shop-owner
then there is more work to do.
FWIW, kudos to WTSP for exposing him for being a racist asshole violating Florida law
and kudos to the ATF following up on a tip about his shitty inventory control.

[GreenStormCloud]

64. Texas numbers for Black Women:

2011 -- 2,415
2010 -- 1,931
2009 -- 2,160
2008 -- 1,254
2007 -- 1,363
2006 -- 1,106

I think that is enough to show a general trend. A couple of years do have outliers.

[spin]

39. I don't feel the six white guys you know who have carry permits are representative ...

of all white males who have carry permits.

I know far more white males who have carry permits than you and while I suspect a couple may be racist, the majority are not. I have personally introduced several Blacks to the shooting sports and one obtained a carry permit.

The White instructor who gave him his concealed weapons class was so impressed with my friend's ability to shoot that he tried to interest him in competitive shooting. He had a natural skill with a handgun. The first time we went to the range, my friend was hesitant as he feared the other shooters would be prejudiced because of the color of his skin. He was amazed with just how friendly everybody at the range was.

Often on the pistol range I used to shoot at, new shooters would ask how they could improve their ability. Many of the experienced shooters were always willing to spend some time giving them tips and advice and coach them while they were shooting. Most of these experienced regular shooters at the range had carry permits. Skin color, ethnic background or sexual orientation was never a problem and we were always willing to help anyone who expressed interest.

I can't remember any individual that I knew who stated he carried a firearm because of a fear of Blacks or Hispanics. Few had any real fear of being attacked but since they had considerable experience with firearms they merely felt it made commonsense to carry one in order to be prepared in the unlikely event that they were attacked by an individual who intended to seriously injure or kill them.

Of course it is possible that I shot at ranges that had unusually unprejudiced members. Personally I doubt this.

I feel that it is all too easy to form misconceptions about gun owners or those who legally carry if you personally dislike firearms. The media which supports strong gun control often fosters stereotypes of gun owners and rarely portrays them in a positive light. The majority of those I know who have carry permits are well educated and hold professional jobs. Obviously they are law abiding citizens in states like Florida that require a background check before issuing a carry permit. Statistics show that people with concealed weapons permits are far more law abiding than the average citizen.

[Eleanors38]

56. It's the "New Geography" and the New Math.

[DonP]

23. I already got a typical pissy e-mail from him for pointing that out

I was there and know every photo from the event.

Otis McDonald was meeting with legislators along with Rhonda Ezell, the 2nd case about banning ranges in the city limits.

But the OP has put me on his ignore list, after a lot of ranting and insisting that photo was not cropped.

I'm betting I'm in excellent company with his track record.

Here's a link to just one of the un-cropped photo pages.

http://isra.org/albums/igold_2012_jb/

[Glassunion]

26. From a more recent GLD March

That's Mr. McDonald out in front.

[beevul]

30. If only iverglas were here...

You know how she loved to talk about "menz and their guns".

She'd have loved that picture.

[Glassunion]

37. I'm sure.

She and I had butt heads a few times.

I do however miss her from time to time. She was educated, and that made for an excellent debate. Yet, her level of unrefinement outweighed her knowledge. Sort of like GWB, sure he was a Yale man, but a complete fucking ass hole.

[petronius]

40. I kinda miss her too, actually - although I'd like to see the return of

the (lets say) 2007 Edition iverglas. The 2011/12 version was a bit heavy on snark and light on substance, but the earlier models had a better balance of content versus cutting 'humor' (not to mention pictures of scarecrows and 10,000+ word screeds on arcane Canadian legal documents)...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

44. +1

toward the end there, I was really worried about her. wonder how she is. I wish you, well iverglas where ever you are.

[AtheistCrusader]

19. Where's the uncropped original?

[Glassunion]

24. To his credit, I am going to assume that he obtained the picture from Huffpo.

I saw the exact same photo on their website this morning. That is the entire picture that they posted. So I do not feel that the OP cropped it.

However, it is a picture from March 10th of 2010.

A bing image search of "Illinois Gun Owners Lobby Day" returns this photo first, which was uploaded to ammoland in Jan of 2011. It is the same photo.

[friendly_iconoclast]

69. So the OP used a misleading photo? How very unsurprising...

[Jester Messiah]

28. Don't be such a tool.

Also, don't be racist. But yeah... you really want one side to have all the guns? The 'baggers will shoot you without a second thought, legal or otherwise. I'd think you'd be happier that the law allows you to carry a means of defense close at hand.

[pop topcan]

29. Are you actually UNaware of the historical racist roots of "gun control" measures?

[spin]

34. It all depends on if law in Illinois is "shall issue" or "may issue." ...

I suspect it will be may issue CCW and a license will be very expensive and hard to obtain.

If so carry permits in Illinois will largely be granted to well off mainly white people who have good political connections.

In Florida which has shall issue concealed carry ANY honest citizen who meets the qualifications and pays the reasonable fee can get a concealed weapons permit. Their race is totally irrelevant and they do not have to be politically connected.

I know a good number of Blacks and Hispanics who have concealed weapons permits. Some I introduced to the shooting sports.

I would also suggest you study the history of gun control.

'KKK began as gun-control organization'--confirms 'Racist Roots of Gun Control'

UCLA constitutional law professor Adam Winkler is not likely to be mistaken for a fervent gun rights advocate. As discussed here last November, he referred to the Tea Party's generally gun-friendly stance as the "Tea Party's Gun Problem," in an article he wrote for the Daily Beast:

In state after state, Tea Party candidates like Rand Paul in Kentucky and Joe Miller in Alaska advocate for the adoption of radical “Firearms Freedom Acts.” These laws, which declare that the federal government has exceeded its constitutional authority by regulating gun sales, are intended to nullify the federal Brady Act, which requires background checks for most gun purchases. Eight states in the throes of Tea Party fervor, including Arizona, Utah, and South Dakota, have already enacted such laws—even though, as a federal court held last month, these laws are clearly unconstitutional.


***snip***

Even Professor Winkler, though, recognizes what gun rights advocates have known all along--that "gun control" laws in the U.S. are rooted in racism and white supremacy--as Clayton Cramer has forcefully and skillfully argued for decades. From the Wall Street Journal:

In his research for “Gunfight,” Winkler also noted a close intersection between guns and racism. “It was a constant pressure among white racists to keep guns out of the hands of African-Americans, because they would rise up and revolt.” he said. “The KKK began as a gun-control organization. Before the Civil War, blacks were never allowed to own guns. During the Civil War, blacks kept guns for the first time – either they served in the Union army and they were allowed to keep their guns, or they buy guns on the open market where for the first time there’s hundreds of thousands of guns flooding the marketplace after the war ends. So they arm up because they know who they’re dealing with in the South....emphasis added
http://www.examiner.com/article/kkk-began-as-gun-control-organization-confirms-racist-roots-of-gun-control

5-2009
The Discriminatory History of Gun Control David Babat
University of Rhode Island

Introduction
The Discriminatory History of Gun Control
Gun control in the United States is based on a long history of discrimination which continues to this day. While blacks were the first targets of gun control measures, different racial and ethnic minorities have been targeted over time, and today the poor now face economic discrimination in many gun control laws. Gun control may be portrayed as a measure to reduce crime,1 but even in its earliest forms firearms regulation has been used as a means to control specific societal groups by keeping them from possessing weapons. The first selectively restrictive gun control legislation was enacted in the pre-Revolution South and primarily aimed at keeping free blacks from owning firearms and maintaining a white monopoly on power.
Many different forms of gun control laws were implemented before and after the Revolution to keep firearms out of African-American hands. Even after the Civil War, Black Codes were enacted which ensured that supposedly freed blacks would not have effective means to defend themselves, and would remain an unarmed and subordinate group in society, unable to defend themselves or fight for their legal and constitutional rights.

***snip***

Conclusion
The discriminatory effects of gun control are clear, but its positive impact on violent crime is not. Gun control in the United States is based on a history of racism, classism, and discrimination. Even the most well meaning measures implemented today are still based on a pattern of "pre-judging" gun control issues based on false beliefs or without knowing the real facts and circumstances of gun violence. In its earliest forms, gun control existed to keep firearms out of the hands of African-Americans, especially free blacks, who were a perceived threat to white supremacy. As wide spread immigration into the United States began, people in established positions of power started to feel threatened by these new groups and took measures to keep firearms out of the hands of immigrants. The blatantly discriminatory laws used in the South would have been politically impossible to legislate after 1900, so gun control efforts shifted to discretionary permitting that allowed police or licensing boards to keep “undesirable” people from legally accessing firearms.
http://digitalcommons.uri.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1142&context=srhonorsprog

[trouble.smith]

36. yay!!!

[Simo 1939_1940]

38. I spent a good part of my day in the emergency room........

.........nothing serious, luckily.

But my point is, thanks for cheering me up after a very long and tiring day!!!

[Berserker]

46. LMAO

The poor remain poor while the NRA and gun manufacturers reap the rewards of paranoia.
Another Mahatma Gandhi, fuck that's good humor right there!

[GreenStormCloud]

54. The poor gain the right to protect themselves.

Previously you had to be a less than 1%er to have body guards to protect against thugs. Now the poor can do it themselves.

[Callisto32]

49. U Mad @ wite PpL., Brah?

[Kolesar]

51. The whiteys in Ohio gov't took away Cleveland's power to regulate firearms possession

The conservative hypocrites claim that are for "home rule" and it has been in the Ohio Constitution since 1912. However, when they get a chance to tweak the paranoid and somewhat racist members of their voting block, they don't miss the chance. The Repukes* on the Ohio Supreme Court certainly won't overrule this unconstitutional abuse of power.

BTW, Cleveland has and had a black mayor when that happened. Mayor Jackson did not support the Ohio government taking away his police department's power to control firearms on their streets.


Timothy Grendell, the white suburbanite who sponsored the bill

*also white

[PavePusher]

53. Constitutional RIghts shouldn't subverted by any race or political party. n/t

[slackmaster]

55. In honor of the term "whitey"...

[Straw Man]

62. Because ...

Mayor Jackson did not support the Ohio government taking away his police department's power to control firearms on their streets.

... we all know that letting police make up their own laws is s-o-o-o-o-o progressive.

[friendly_iconoclast]

68. Certain "progressives" become decidedly less progressive when guns are mentioned.

Witness the recent touting of Michael Bloomberg here. Or the sudden embrace of "state's
rights" when a Federal court strikes down a gun law as unconstitutional:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=332725

[jody]

65. Your statement "poor remain poor" because law-abiding citizens buy firearms ranks among the all time

stupid posts on this Group.

[DainBramaged]

66. Not even close

Last edited Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:29 PM - Edit history (1)

You know as little about everything as you know about GM. You should stick to somethin amusing, say clown cars.....

[Dr. Strange]

67. You're probably right.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

70. maybe. although bongbong, bupkus and jpak would give him a good run for the money.

[ileus]

75. everyone who cares about safety and freedom should cheer.

[DainBramaged]

86. How about the families in Connecticut?

[ileus]

88. They live in IL?

[doc03]

76. Concealed Carry Killers

Click on the tally boxes and read about the victims of Concealed Carry Killers.



http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm

[gejohnston]

77. Ever read through them?

many are murder/suicides in the home. Many of the other shootings have yet to be adjudicated, meaning don't know if those cases were murder/manslaughter or not.

[ManiacJoe]

78. Par for the course at VPC.org

doc03 should know better.

[doc03]

83. I just discovered it last night and read through a few of them. For one thing I saw a couple

of ccw people were convicted fellons. That kind of blows the meme where ccw people have passed a background check and they are law abiding citizens. A couple years ago in this county they found a ccw instructor was a convicted fellon.

[Glassunion]

85. Wouldn't that be a failure of the state?

Should'nt the state look at that failure and devise a method to prevent it from happening in the future? In my state, upon a disqualifying conviction the license is revoked. Throughout a protective order, the license is suspended IIRC.

[Glassunion]

84. I like how they include folks without CCW licenses in their numbers.

[GreenStormCloud]

87. That list included 100 pure suicides.

If the CCWer killed himself by any method other than a gun, they still list it. By "pure suicide" I mean that the only person who died was the CCWer.

Even with VPC's total, the rate for CCWers is still far below the murder rate for the U.S.

[DonP]

80. I'll celebrate by shopping for a nice CCW holster this weekend.

I have an original Colt Government Pocketlite with an SM&A trigger and dehorning job on it that, when the time comes, I'll be using along with a S&W Airweight.

Time to finally find some appropriate leather.