Why Do People Decide to Carry Concealed?

[mikeb302000]

Local news reports on the concealed-carry victory in Illinois.

Twenty years ago, Bob Zimmerman ran into a panhandler who wouldn't take "no" for an answer.

The Germantown Hills resident was at a rest stop in Florida, and the man wanted money.

Things didn't get physical, Zimmerman said, but if he hadn't gotten into his truck as quickly as he did, he's sure there would have been a fight.

From that point on, Zimmerman knew he needed a gun.

Does anyone see the problem with that rationale? If anything the incident in Florida proved that a gun is not necessary. All the fear-driven what-if scenarios are not justification for carrying a gun. They're just fear-driven what-if scenarios.

Men who feel intimidated by their own fantasies, sometimes make the mistake of thinking a gun will supply the answer. They're wrong, as we've seen earlier today, and yesterday, and meantime gun-rights fanatics are calling for even fewer restrictions.

What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.
Cross posted at Mikeb302000

[elleng]

1. Good question and really speaks to my question:

Why do people CARRY???

[OffWithTheirHeads]

2. Why not?

[elleng]

4. Because

If anything the incident in Florida proved that a gun is not necessary. All the fear-driven what-if scenarios are not justification for carrying a gun. They're just fear-driven what-if scenarios.

Men who feel intimidated by their own fantasies, sometimes make the mistake of thinking a gun will supply the answer. They're wrong, as we've seen earlier today, and yesterday, and meantime gun-rights fanatics are calling for even fewer restrictions.

[friendly_iconoclast]

5. So what would you say to women that carry concealed weapons?

[elleng]

31. Don't.

[armueller2001]

33. Don't... protect yourself?

Just let yourself get raped or attacked?

What alternative would you suggest?

I know what I'd choose if it were my wife or my mother.

[elleng]

44. There are other manners of self-defense than gun-use

and they should be studied, and used when necessary. I would never suggest that my daughters carry firearms, and I never have and never will.

[Trunk Monkey]

45. Do you think your daughters could fight off a 200+ pound pissed off man

with out some type of weapon capable of incapacitating him?

[elleng]

52. No, unless they studied techniques. I don't expect they would be in a position to have to do so.

If they were, and incapable of dealing with it physically, succumbing would be preferable to carrying a firearm which he, if as large and pissed as you suggest, could likely use against them. These situations are clearly NO wins for ANYONE.

[friendly_iconoclast]

57. Only if they were lucky. After a while, size will tell. Better to have an equalizer.

Having said all that, using a firearm should absolutely be the last self-defense technique anyone
ever uses. Situational awareness should be the first resort for personal safety.

But if situational awareness fails, and one finds oneself at risk of great bodily harm- I feel nothing
in the great social contract we all should live by requires you to place an attackers well-being above your own.

That is not to say the practice of ahimsa should be dismissed- I respect those that choose the way of non-violence, though I would not do so personally. Taking a human life weighs upon anybody with even
a shred of conscience. Even a justifiable homicide will induce PTSD to a greater or lesser degree in anyone
who isn't an utter sociopath.

[elleng]

58. Definitely NOT placing attacker's well-being above mine or those of my daughters,

but aware of great uncertainty that we might actually succeed in harming attacker, and placing ourselves in MORE jeopardy than rape or robbery, that is, attacker is able to use weapon against us, AND your mention of PTSD, convinces me I will NOT advocate arming ourselves.

Situational awareness IS our Number ! resort for safety.

[gejohnston]

60. while what you describe was popular with

"anti gun" propaganda in the 1970s, criminologists have since debunked it. You are less likely to be harmed if you resist than if you don't. Of course, resistance by any means regardless of weapon.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

6. I don't know what happened in Florida.

I do know that police are less and less available due to Republican spending cuts. Do you think banning guns will solve the problem of people who prey on the rest of us?

I get the impression from your use of the fantisy phrase that you think people own guns as a penis substitute. It's an often heard argument from people who think guns, as opposed to people, are the problem but, really, it's just a talking point. People have guns. That is not going to change. So what do you think will make this a better place? Realistically?

[Starboard Tack]

22. Projecting a little?

I didn't see any mention of "banning guns". The question was Why do people CARRY?
You brought up the "penis fantasy".

[elleng]

32. Thanks, Starboard. No need for me to respond.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

28. I think there are too many guns

in the hands of the wrong people. I think rational, emotionally balanced, law abiding citizens should be able to own as many guns as their hearts desire. However, I don't believe mentally and emotionally healthy people want or need assault weapons and I would ban the sale of those to the general public. You may not like to hear it, but assault weapons are indeed penis substitutes. I would end the abuses of gun show sales by making it illegal to sell guns at gun shows. I would make background checks and a one week waiting period mandatory. I would ban the sale of guns on the internet. Anyone who can't wait 7 days to get that gun into his/her hand, I would posit is not particularly rational or emotionally balanced. I have no problem with people who feel the need for protection and decide to carry a gun. I have a real problem with any fool who thinks his concealed pistol is a match for a maniac who can get off 30 rounds or more in the blink of an eye. I am saddened by people who think their right to own guns trumps the right of someone else to live. It is long past time for people to begin having rational conversations about the issue of guns, because while guns don't kill, guns in the wrong hands do.

[PavePusher]

34. Please present your Psychology credentials that give your assertions/suggestions....

any credibility whatsoever.

assault weapons are indeed penis substitutes

Riiiiigghht.....

I would end the abuses of gun show sales

What "abuses"? If it's lawful, it's not an abuse. If someone is breaking a law, they should be charged and prosecuted. Please present your evidence.

I am saddened by people who think their right to own guns trumps the right of someone else to live.

I'd love to see a citation for this.

Anyone who can't wait 7 days to get that gun into his/her hand, I would posit is not particularly rational or emotionally balanced.

Posit away, amateur pshrink. Again with a lack of evidence.... and it does seem to clash with this:

I have no problem with people who feel the need for protection and decide to carry a gun.

Are you going to provide protection for your seven-day waiting period? What, pray tell, will your waiting period accomplish? What proof do you have that it will do so?

I have a real problem with any fool who thinks his concealed pistol is a match for a maniac who can get off 30 rounds or more in the blink of an eye.

Ummm, so you do have a problem with people carrying guns for protection. Why do you keep contradicting yourself?

I don't think we can have this "rational conversation" you claim to want until you can deconflict and rethink your own talking points.

[PavePusher]

15. And if the pnahandler had not stopped with mere harrasment, what would that have "proven"?

One can not extrapolate the results of all instances from the result of one instance.

[Starboard Tack]

23. Oh, what if, what if, what if. The gnashing of teeth is endless.

My God! How do you live in such fear?

[Eleanors38]

24. I slept 9 hrs. Last night. Good lunch next! SUCH fear.

[AlexSatan]

35. Are you talking about those who carry

or those who don't want them to?

For those who don't want them to, if they have not been shot but someone with a CCW, isn't their concern all just fear and what if, what if, what if?

I have a CCW permit and haven't shot a single person!

Do you live in fear of a CCW carrier shooting you? If not, why do you care if they do?

[Trunk Monkey]

14. I carry at work because my job requires it

kinda hard to be an armed security guard with out a gun.
So, That would be one reason.

My wife carries a concealed hand gun everywhere she legally can because she is 60 years old and arthritic and is not going to have any chance if she is ever attacked (key word coming up) again.

At her age and physical condition people see her as an easy mark.

So, that's another reason.

I carry a hand gun (off shift) because I've been attacked as well.

I was at work (unarmed duty) one night and some guy walked up to me asking for directions to some bar. Security isn'tlaw enforcement, a big portion of what we do is customer service. I had no legal authority to tell the man to stop or not to approach me any further and I had no real reason to because he looked normal.

When he got about five feet away he started screaming that he'd done two tours in Afghanistan so that fat fucks like me could by cheap gas (not that I didn't fell some sympathy for his position) and I found myself in a fight with a drunk maniac half my age and twice my fitness level.

While I was fighting him off with one hand and getting my OC spray out with the other (no hands left for the radio) he broke my nose and cracked two of my teeth ( I spent a year going back and forth for the dental implants and the deviated septum.)

Now I'm sure that you will point out that the attack arose directly from my job and you would be right.

That doesn't change the fact that people like that exist in our world and they really don't give a fuck how you feel about guns.

As a result of that attack I've increased my fitness level, I work out, I walk several miles every day at work, I lift weights but the fact is I'm too old to to survive another attack like that. I very likely wouldn't have survived that one had I not sprayed half a can up Fox Labs right up that guy's nose.

I sure as hell can't pay for the medical bills resulting from such an attack, my employer's insurance paid up wards of 70 thousand dollars to get my face fixed, thats almost 3 years salary for me.

I can't go through that again

That's why I carry a gun

[AtheistCrusader]

19. For the same reason I invest time and effort in CPR, first aid, triage and other skills.

All of these things, including my pistol, are tools for preserving human life.

Maybe not in everyone's hands, mind you, but in my hands, they are.

[NewMoonTherian]

41. In order to have quick access to a handgun.

In order to defend against a potentially lethal attack. That's only my own rationale, but I hope it helps.

[Kurska]

3. I'm a openly gay man and if some jesus freak decides

that he wants to cave in my skull for his god I'll send him to that god.

Sorry I don't mince words about it, it isn't easy to be a hated minority. It is easier to be an armed hated minority.

[Prometheus_unbound]

8. .

Minorities are not the only ones who can play that game.

[Kurska]

10. Which makes it all the more important for the minority to be armed as well, buddy.

I'd love to buy into world of no guns, but the reality of situation is your vision does jack squat to keep me safe tomorrow. Whereas my firearms are unbeaten in that regard.

[rDigital]

21. +1 nt

[rl6214]

7. Because I can

[tblue]

9. Because people prefer their 'right' over your safety

I hate guns and I blame every damned gun lover whenever other gun lovers kill. They make these massacres possible.

I hate you! I do! Flame away, Gun Lovers. (Not you, dear mikeb...) I will still hate you and I will still blame you. Anything you say could only make me hate you more. John Lennon might still be alive today if not for the likes of you.

There I said it. I'm going to bed and I don't give a fuck what you have to say. And I never will. You've said and done enough already. When I read about these murders tomorrow, I will think of you. Ugh! You're offended? Oh, poor you.

[PavePusher]

16. Do you own/consume alcohol? If so, drunk driving deaths are your fault.

I don't give a fuck what you have to say

Right back at you bub.

[AtheistCrusader]

20. Lennon, what?

What's a wife beater got to do with this discussion?

[AlexSatan]

36. Or they prefer their (and your) safety over your irrational fear. NT

[Zoeisright]

62. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAH!!

The irrational fear is in the minds of gun nuts, dearie.

[AlexSatan]

63. SO you don't fear people carrying guns

especially with a CCP?

[NewMoonTherian]

42. I disagree.

I prefer my safety over your comfort. I won't forfeit my ability to defend myself against a deadly threat in order to make you feel more at ease, or to make you like me more(hate me less?).

In spite of your hate, though, I don't have any hard feelings toward you. I'd go out of my way to help you if you were in need. I have to admit to a little schadenfreude, though. The angrier you get, the more comfort I take in the knowledge that you can't impose your will on other people.

[ileus]

11. Because some of us value our lives and our loved ones.

So we take advantage of our very limited firearm freedoms.(at least what we have left)

If you're going to carry take the time to buy the proper equipment, get the proper training, and keep the proper mindset.


Stay safe my friends.

[Brainstormy]

26. Your "very limited firearm freedoms" ?

I really can't believe I just read that.

[Travis_0004]

12. There are people everyday that defend themselves with a weapon.

I'll admit, most people go their entire lifetime without needed it, but there are thousands of people who are alive today because of concealed carry.

I have a liscense to carry concealed, but never do. I personally don't feel the need, but I see nothing wrong with people who do. I also have a background in boxing, so I could hold my own against somebody else without a weapon, but I would only do that if I was trapped. Otherwise, I would just walk away.

[newfie11]

13. My husband and I both have CCP

Why? Because we do have a gun in the pickup. No we never carry it on us. Have we ever needed it, yes. To put a deer out of misery that we hit.

We live in a very rural area but do travel all over to show dogs and that is why we have the permit. No we have never needed it (except for the deer) and hope we never will.

I was stopped by a state trooper, just checking everyone due to some theft in the area. Showed him my drivers license and my CCP and HIS reply was I am glad you have it.



this is from Casper yesterday:
http://k2radio.com/customer-turns-the-tables-on-nail-salon-robber/

[Atypical Liberal]

17. "fear-driven what-if scenarios"

Many of the decisions we make in life are "fear-driven what-if scenarios".

The problem is you are trying to paint carrying a gun as an irrational fear.

I wear a seatbelt because I'm afraid of the consequences if I'm not wearing one and get in a car accident.

I have smoke detectors in my house because I'm afraid of a fire while we are sleeping.

I have a first aid kit in my car because I'm afraid I may come across someone who is injured.

I have a spare tire in my vehicles because I'm afraid I may have a flat tire.

None of these are irrational fears. Even though the odds of them occurring are very slight, it is trivial and inexpensive to buy the tools necessary to be prepared for these situations.

Carrying a gun is the same way.

But it doesn't really matter what the rationale is for carrying a firearm. The fact is, people who do carry firearms are highly unlikely to be involved in any kind of crime, let alone firearm-related crime. So why worry about it?

[Lizzie Poppet]

18. For my part...

For my part, I choose to carry because I find the notion of having multiple options in a bad situation to make logical sense. For me, at 5'4", under 110lbs, hand-to-hand fighting (against an assailant who is statistically almost certain to be much larger and stronger than I am) isn't one of those options. Running away might well be, as I have rather good endurance (I race bikes...). However, for all that I can likely outdistance an assailant, I might not be able to outsprint one, so my greater endurance would be irrelevant. Perhaps I could do like the person in your story and reach the safety of my car.

Or perhaps none of those things would be viable. In that case, I prefer to have an effective means of self-defense. Fear (or, to employ a less-loaded term, prudence)-driven scenarios generally present multiple options for avoidance, and preconsideration of such scenarios makes sense, especially for those of us who live in areas where crime is far from unheard-of. Pointedly, I live in generally low-crime Portland...but anything can happen. Obviously.

[petronius]

50. I think you make a good point here that isn't recognized as often as it should be:

firearms should not be the first or only tool for self-defense - deadly force should be the last option. Awareness, avoidance, alarm-raising, less-lethal self-defense, and escape are all in the tool-kit. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of those who choose to carry view it that way, and have zero desire to ever use/need that particular option...

[rrneck]

25. To give you blog fodder. nt

[SheilaT]

27. Let's see, I'm female, age 64,

only 5'1", and while I weight a bit more than I should or would like to, my fitness level leaves something to be desired. I used to ride public busses in the DC area to and from work, and I normally worked the afternoon shift so I was riding home anywhere from 10pm on to the wee hours of the morning.

Amazingly enough I never had anything bad happen to me. I have never felt any need to have a weapon. I am inclined to think that those who are totally convinced they need a gun (other than perhaps the armed security guard while on duty) are projecting their own fears and wishes. Lately we see more and more trivial events escalated to murder because of guns.

I'm beginning to move in the direction of thinking all guns should be confiscated from everyone, except law enforcement types. And even they shouldn't have guns at home.

For the apologists of gun ownership there is apparently no incident dreadful enough to re-think the notion that guns should be easy to obtain. They keep on throwing out there the most recent incident, whatever it currently is, would not have happened if there'd been an armed civilian nearby. Well, concealed carry is now legal in all 50 states, and we don't see any of the mass shootings stopped by some armed citizen. Perhaps the rationale is just a trifle faulty.

[elleng]

59. Thanks, SheilaT.

[beevul]

61. On the other hand...

"Well, concealed carry is now legal in all 50 states, and we don't see any of the mass shootings stopped by some armed citizen. Perhaps the rationale is just a trifle faulty."

On the other hand, many if not most of these "mass shootings", take place in so called "gun free zones".

Columbine, VT, the mall shootings in Oregon and Omaha, and on and on. The failures are numerous.

Are you going to conclude that perhaps the rationale of "gun free zones" is just a trifle faulty as well?

And then theres also this:

Police say the 11 a.m. service was letting out about 1 p.m. in the north Colorado Springs church when Murray began walking through the parking lot with five guns and about 1,000 rounds of ammunition in his backpack. He had more weaponry in his car.

"I'm coming for EVERYONE soon and I WILL be armed to the @#%$ teeth and I WILL shoot to kill. Feel no remorse, no sense of shame, I don't care if I live or die in the shoot-out. All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world."

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_7686929


At about 1 p.m. MST (20:00 UTC), 30 minutes after the 11 a.m. service had ended at New Life Church, Murray opened fire in the church parking lot shooting the Works family and Judy Purcell, 40. Murray then entered the building's main foyer where he shot Larry Bourbonnais, 59, hitting him in the forearm. At this point, Assam opened fire on Murray with her personally owned concealed weapon. Police say that after suffering multiple hits from Assam's gun, Murray fatally shot himself.

http://murderpedia.org/male.M/m/murray-matthew.htm

So here we have a gal who was volunteer security with a personally owned weapon and a concealed carry, who stopped what might otherwise have urned out to be the worst mass shooting in American history.

He didn't bring over 1000 rounds with him because he just wanted to shoot a couple people.

[jeff47]

29. What I don't get is the concealed part

If the goal is to deter crime or attacks, why wouldn't you want potential attackers to know you were armed?

[armueller2001]

30. Open carry is an option in some states,

however often times it results in "sheeple" calling 9-1-1 every time they see someone with a firearm on their side.

[AlexSatan]

37. Because apparently some people have an irrational fear of guns

and would freak out if they saw you were carrying.

This saves them from having to worry about it. If they can't see it then it doesn't scare them.

[apocalypsehow]

39. Because it's not really about self-protection/defense: see my post #38 below.

Studies have shown that much of it is simply impotence anxiety disorder.

[Trunk Monkey]

46. But sometimes it is, see my post 14 above NT

[apocalypsehow]

49. The events you describe in that post would be a legitimate act of self-defense on your part. n/t.

[armueller2001]

55. What about the women

phallic impulses as well?

[ManiacJoe]

43. Not all criminals fear armed victims.

If the goal is to deter crime or attacks, why wouldn't you want potential attackers to know you were armed?

For that subclass, the element of surprise is an important part of your defense.

[apocalypsehow]

38. I ran across a controlled study once that showed fear of impotence was a stem cause

of the "need" some men (it was a gender-specific study into male impotence anxiety) had to carry a firearm in circumstances were it simply wasn't warranted, like trips to the grocery store or even to the Church pew on Sunday mornings. I wish I could find it again, but it's been years.

They looked at another study where, basically, when you control for legitimate reasons to carry a firearm, i.e., hunting, part of your profession, military duty, etc., etc., and then factored in things such as crime rates in areas those who carry firearms the most lived, something wasn't adding up: those who carried the most lived in places where law enforcement services were the best, and the lack of poverty made crime rarer in any event.

It was fascinating stuff, and confirmed just what the vast majority of us have long suspected: that that pistol perched in the pants to strut around Wal Mart is being carried in the right location for what it's really "protecting."

I'll go through one of my old CD's and see if I can find a link to the study.

[spin]

47. It would be interesting to be able to read the study you mention. ...

It is somewhat important to find who ran the study and where it was conducted.

In many areas of our nation firearms are somewhat uncommon as the local laws make such obtaining such weapons difficult and expensive. In other areas firearm ownership involves far less regulations and expense and firearms are common.

In Florida when I live the majority of my neighbors, co-workers and friends own firearms. Target shooting and hunting are popular sports and many people own firearms for home defense. Over 800,000 resident Floridians have a concealed weapons permit.

In an area of the nation where gun ownership is uncommon, male impotence anxiety might be a driving factor that could lead a person suffering from this condition to expend the time and expense to obtain a firearm to compensate for his problem. In a state like Florida it would not be as significant a factor. Our nation is large and often there are significant cultural differences between areas.

Before I retired I enjoyed target shooting handguns as a sport as I found it challenging. I have never had any interest in hunting and I find fishing boring. There were a number of good pistol ranges in the area I lived and my wife and daughter also enjoyed target shooting so it become a family hobby and we practiced at a range on a weekly basis for many years.

I have fortunately never suffered from male impotence anxiety or excessive paranoia and I doubt that the majority of my male friends and co-workers who owned firearms did either. Firearm ownership is so common here that it is not viewed as macho or proof of masculinity. If anything not owning a firearm is slightly unusual.

I lived in a fairly safe area but I worked the graveyard shift and left my wife and daughter alone at night. My wife had access to a loaded handgun at night when I was at work but I unloaded it when I returned in the morning.

Over the many years I lived in my Tampa home the neighborhood went downhill. There was some gang activity and illegal drugs became quite common due to the failure of our War on Drugs. There was a drive by shooting two houses from mine, several clerks in stores or restaurants within walking distance of my home were shot and killed during robberies and I remember three instances where I witnessed police with drawn firearms chasing or arresting suspects on my street or nearby.

I started carrying a loaded handgun in my car when I read reports of a rash of bump and rob traffic incidents occurring at night in my area. Since I was still working the graveyard shift, I was driving to work late at night.

One of my co-workers knew that I had a gun in my car and had a tendency to exceed the speed limit. He suggested that I get a concealed weapons permit as if I was stopped on my way to work and the police found that I had a firearm in my car it would make the time involved in the traffic stop much shorter. (At that time it was legal to have a loaded firearm in your vehicle even while at work without a license. New Florida laws require you to have a concealed weapons permit to have a firearm in your employer's parking lot.)

I seen some wisdom in my co-workers advice so I got a carry permit. I rarely carried a firearm on my person after I got the permit as I found it was a pain in the ass.

The range master at the range I shot at knew I had a carry permit and asked me if I carried regularly. He was a retired police officer and chewed my ass when I replied that I normally didn't.

He told me, "It makes little or no sense to spend the money and the time to get a carry permit and leave your weapon at home. I've watched you shoot and you handle your weapon proficiently. The state of Florida has decided in its wisdom to allow people like you to carry a firearm in hopes that it will reduce crime. It is impossible to predict where and when you might be a victim of an attack and I don't want to read in a newspaper that you were killed or seriously injured and was unarmed."

I decided to buy a smaller and lighter handgun for carry. I chose a S&W Model 642 snub nosed .38 caliber revolver. I found it easy to slip this weapon and its holster into my pants pocket on the way out the door of my home. I usually did all my shopping on my way home from work and rather than leave my handgun in my car where it might be stolen, I carried it with me into the stores I stopped at.

Over the years carrying this weapon has become a habit. I have no real fear of being attacked but there is always a faint possibility of this happening. I rarely go to church but when I do I carry. Churches have been targeted by shooters in the past and will be in the future.

I am not recommending that everybody run out and buy a firearm or get a concealed weapons permit as that is a serious decision that requires a lot of thought. I will suggest that if a person does have a carry permit that he does carry. It makes little sense to have a license and leave your handgun behind in your safe unless you have a crystal ball and the ability to use it to predict the exact day when you may be a victim of a violent attack.

[apocalypsehow]

51. If I get my hands on a link, I'll post it here for your perusal.

[slackmaster]

53. I'm the King of France

I'll go through one of my old CD's and see if I can find a link to the study.

We'll wait for you.

[apocalypsehow]

56. We get a lot of that down here in the Gungeon, "King": posters stating they are things they

pretty plainly are not. Nice to see a more novel approach employed, for once.

[NewMoonTherian]

40. The incident in Florida proved that a gun is a heavy responsibility.

The incident on 4th street in my home town proved that a gun is necessary in many cases. A gun saved my grandfather's life that night. You will have to come up with something more compelling to dissuade me from my conclusion.

[apocalypsehow]

48. Addendum to my post #38: I just finished a delightful conversation with a former colleague of

mine who I reached out to; she remembers the study well, and thinks she has a PDF on one of the computers back on campus. If she finds it, she'll forward to me and I'll post a link to the PDF source and everyone here can just read up on it for themselves.

She actually attended a seminar where one of the study author's spoke, and he related an anecdote during his speech that is just too apt to the matter under discussion not to share.

[YllwFvr]

54. I carry because I am ordered to

By policy. Is it enforceable? Probably not. I carried before the job and didnt need a few ugly stories of off duty guys running into a few people theyve put in jail to convince me to keep up the practice.

My wife needed no convincing either. After all the stories I tell her she decided she would rather be able to protect herself and our newborn. Im away from home more often than not and cant always be there.

[trouble.smith]

64. yep, if everybody was just disarmed, we would be so much safer.