So, can this "issue" be discussed without racial appeals?

[Eleanors38]

From a post in response to Chicago's appeal for ideas about "illegal guns:"

Bibliophilist at 1:08 PM October 11, 2012

"Yes, let's COMPLETELY IGNORE the core problem here - a certain segment of our society is out of control, where their culture uses extreme violence to solve the most petty of disagreements. We all know what segment of society I am talking about, and we all know that to honestly and clearly talk about THIS problem immediately opens one up to charges of racism. Instead, the powers that be go around and around and around addressing peripheral issues while the elephant in the middle of the room gets bigger and bigger."

http://www.wgntv.com/news/wgntv-city-seeks-ideas-from-online-community-to-solve-illegal-gun-problem-20121011,0,7149381.story
_________________
In discussing these problems, one may wish to consider if the positions set out by Bibliophilist are true, and if the issue of "illegal guns" can be addressed by some kind of action against, presumably, black "gangsters." Can these unspecified actions be effectively taken while ignoring more "traditional" explanations for violent crime: Poverty, joblessness, poor education, dysfunctional family life, etc.? Those who are better at Google Foo may wish to post the "shotgun" chart of many cities where homicides are superimposed over the map of a particular city and its neighborhoods.

I broach the topic because it is within the liberal intellectual tradition to openly discuss controversial topics, off-the-cuff charges of racism or no.

[NOLALady]

1. Well there is a culture that's out of control.

The out of control thugs shoot up theaters, schools, assassinate elected officials, stalk and kill unarmed teens, blow up federal buildings, etc.

I agree, this issue should be discussed without racial agendas and prejudice.

[Eleanors38]

3. Agreement is a good place to start...

You may wish to examine the "routine" homicide rate in this country, winnowing out "mass murders" (Five or more by F.B.I. standards) to see how much "mass murder" fits into the overall picture of homicides.

[NOLALady]

4. Do you believe the "routine" homicide rate

would exist if there was a level playing field, equality of opportunities, upward mobility and wealth equalities?

Do you see "routine" homicides in upper income areas?

[Eleanors38]

8. In a perfect world, "no" to both questions...

Since such a world does not exist and even a reasonable facsimile seems far off, what is to be done about the routine high level of violence in many areas? Places like Chi and Det have near insurrection-levels of violence beyond the capabilities of police, as presently constituted. But the areas of heaviest violence can be plotted. How do we as a society deal with the utterly incorrigible violent repeat offender? As you are aware, this can have political consequences, and charges of racism.

[gejohnston]

2. it is not racist to discuss the issue, or to point it out.

IMHO, on the other hand, I think the problem is the effects of racism, especially the lack of opportunity and upward mobility. Some things can't be fixed in one or two generations. The problem is not so much poverty, but inequality of wealth. There is a stronger correlation of various social ills and wealth inequality than gun laws or anything else.

[4th law of robotics]

5. Someone here was spouting off about white gun owners earlier

and condemning anyone who questioned him for supporting whites.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

6. I could be wrong but, I think the root problem with all Thugs is Mental Illness - no matter

the Race.

We need to diagnose and treat. The sociopaths need to especially be confronted because they have little chance of successful treatment and continue to harm the innocent in society.

[Eleanors38]

7. Mental illness is probably the reason.

The political problem is "going after" the worst offenders, who often formally occupy geographic areas. This often gives rise to "targeting" or "profiling."

I'm impressed with strategies where open-air drug marts are targeted, and early offenders are diverted early, and repeat offenders are repeatedly warned of inevitable consequences. Some good results. But the violent drive-bys in the same areas suggest a more direct, confontational, and persistent strategy which will bring down political protest.

[DWC]

9. Extremely important question

in the reduction of ALL forms of violent, anti-social behavior from all segments of our society.

IMO, the topic deserves not only its own thread but its own forum.

Semper Fi,

[Atypical Liberal]

10. You hit the nail on the head.

Can these unspecified actions be effectively taken while ignoring more "traditional" explanations for violent crime: Poverty, joblessness, poor education, dysfunctional family life, etc.?

You hit the nail on the head.

Those who are better at Google Foo may wish to post the "shotgun" chart of many cities where homicides are superimposed over the map of a particular city and its neighborhoods.

I've posted this map before about homicide in New York City:

http://projects.nytimes.com/crime/homicides/map

61% of the victims and perpetrators are African-American.
27% of victims and 29% of perpetrators are Latino.

8% of victims are white, and 7% of perpetrators are white.

Homicide in NYC is clearly a minority problem, as at least 90% of homicides are committed by minorities. If we had diseases that broke down on this kind of demographic there would be a massive outcry for a solution.

I'd be willing to bet that this same scenario happens in every major urban center.

It should be pretty obvious what is going on here. We have large swaths of our population who have been denied the opportunity to fully participate in our civilization for hundreds of years. Only in the last 50 years has this problem even been addressed, and perhaps only in the last 20 have any cultural changes started to really gain ground. Latinos are still being shunned as productive members of our society, except, of course, when we need someone to pick vegetables or build houses on the sly and under the table, unless INS catches you in which case we'll ship you back to Mexico, so try not to stand out too much.

Until and unless everyone has a real, honest-to-goodness opportunity to fully participate in society, crime is always going to be seen as an attractive alternative.