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discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,481 posts)
Thu Oct 11, 2012, 04:01 PM Oct 2012

The Second Amendment...

...operates as an affirmation of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. The 2A is also a restraint on the government against interference with that right. The Second Amendment is associated with the other rights named, implied or protected in the Bill of Rights.

The Founders who were proponents of the Bill of Rights expressed in the Second Amendment as in all the others, an individual right. If you believe in collective rights, you may as well believe in treating corporations the same as people.

Any thoughts?

27 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Second Amendment... (Original Post) discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2012 OP
Yes. The Constitution REQUIRES gun contol. bowens43 Oct 2012 #1
How do you figure? Atypical Liberal Oct 2012 #6
Regarding... discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2012 #7
Trying to find "collective rights" in the B.O.R. is beyond silly... Eleanors38 Oct 2012 #13
Several times, in modern times. individual citizens have banded as impromptu militias. GreenStormCloud Oct 2012 #16
"The Constitution REQUIRES gun contol."??? PavePusher Oct 2012 #22
I'm not sure what your point is..... Swede Atlanta Oct 2012 #2
the 2A discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2012 #8
Article 5 is always available. n/t PavePusher Oct 2012 #23
If That Was the Intent, They Sure Had a Funny Way of Wording It AndyTiedye Oct 2012 #3
The militia clause explains why it is important for the people to have the right to keep and bear... slackmaster Oct 2012 #4
One of my key issues... discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2012 #9
To state one reason for keeping and bearing arms. Atypical Liberal Oct 2012 #5
+1 Absolutely n/t discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2012 #10
The Federal government is announcing its interest in the Second Amendment's... Eleanors38 Oct 2012 #15
Excellent post. GreenStormCloud Oct 2012 #17
Your welcome. It think the metaphor about the corner store may be better! nt Eleanors38 Oct 2012 #19
Here's the problem for my fellow pro gun people Reasonable_Argument Oct 2012 #11
Not be a quoting... discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2012 #14
I keep thinking that it was worded the way it was because at that time Tuesday Afternoon Oct 2012 #12
After the Revolution... discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2012 #18
thanks for that info and the link. I am sorely tempted to go post about Sybil Tuesday Afternoon Oct 2012 #24
don't forget Agent 355 gejohnston Oct 2012 #25
Oh wow! Thanks for the info and the links! Tuesday Afternoon Oct 2012 #26
You're welcome and go for it. discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2012 #27
WHY HAVE CONSENSUS AND LAWS ENACTED BY THE PEOPLE (PLURAL)..... fightthegoodfightnow Oct 2012 #20
I'm not sure... discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2012 #21
 

bowens43

(16,064 posts)
1. Yes. The Constitution REQUIRES gun contol.
Thu Oct 11, 2012, 04:11 PM
Oct 2012

this is always overlooked or ignored by the death merchants and their supporters.

The is more to the 2nd amendment then just ' the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.' You would never know that if you just listened to the gun people.

Trying to equate collective rights to 'corporations are people' is just silly.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,481 posts)
7. Regarding...
Thu Oct 11, 2012, 05:15 PM
Oct 2012

"Trying to equate collective rights to 'corporations are people' is just silly."

So do you think corps have rights?

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
13. Trying to find "collective rights" in the B.O.R. is beyond silly...
Thu Oct 11, 2012, 05:43 PM
Oct 2012

"The people" also appears in the Fourth. Is that a "collective right" when the Fourth's language says (within the same sentence) "...and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the PERSONS or things to be seized?"

The B.O.R. is the most complete protection yet for INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS. There is nothing said about "communal rights," and the so-called militia clause does not condition the individual RKBA, nor does it establish a "communal right" that is somehow supposed to be defended in contradiction to an individual right.

I don't know what you mean by "equate collective rights to 'corporations are people.'" No one here has made that argument, if I understand it.

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
16. Several times, in modern times. individual citizens have banded as impromptu militias.
Thu Oct 11, 2012, 06:15 PM
Oct 2012
At 4:15 AM on March 6, 1916 Panco Villa's troops attacked the town of Columbus, NM.

The Villistas numbered about 500. The U.S. Army had 330 soldiers of the 19th Calvary at the nearby fort. The attack caught the town and the troops by surprise as the Mexicans attacked. The troops quickly responded rushing to defensible positions and returning fire. The citizens did too, returning fire with rifles and shotguns. Eight soldiers and ten civilians were killed, six soldiers and two civilians were wounded. Panco Villa's raiders suffered 80 killed, about 100 wounded, six captured (five were hanged).


Battle of Athens, TN, August 1946.

The country government had become so corrupt that the citizens revolted. Complaints to state and federal government had produced no results. An armed battle ensued. There were wounded on each side but no fatalities. The citizens won. The country government disbanded and an new government was seated. No charges were ever filed against the citizens that shot at the local deputies that day.

Deacons for Defense and Justice 1964 - 1968

During the civil rights days southern law enforcement often turned a blind eye towards the activities of the KKK as they terrorized black communities. The DDJ formed to offer armed protection to civil rights marches and against the Klan raiding black communities. Although low key, and little talked about in those days, they forced the Klan (There were several short, sharp gun battles with the Klan. In each on the Klan retreated - fast.) to re-evaluate their tactics, and often change their shorts.

Each of the above was an example of an armed citizenry uniting as a militia to fight for democracy, justice, and defend their homes. Although rare, sometimes an armed citizenry is the answer.

 

Swede Atlanta

(3,596 posts)
2. I'm not sure what your point is.....
Thu Oct 11, 2012, 04:16 PM
Oct 2012

The question about the 2nd Amendment was, until the Supremes screwed this one up, was whether this was an "individual" right outright or "individual" only in the context of a "well regulated militia".

To me the Supremes were bought off by the NRA and its friends.

The Amendment reads, in very plain, simple English that even Catholic schoolboys should understand....

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

The context of the Framers was that the government must not be able to prevent citizens from possessing arms because, at that time, when you were called to be part of the state militia, you brought your own gun. If the government prevented citizens from possessing firearms then the ability of the state to mobilize and deploy a militia would be compromised.

That said, I would agree that nothing in the 2nd Amendment suggests that exercise of this "right" for other uses (protection of home and property) is incompatible with the community need to be able to muster a militia. But, in my view, once the need for individuals to bring their own arms to participate in a militia went away, then the original intent of the Amendment evaporates and would need to be replaced with an amendment that has no such "purpose" statement.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,481 posts)
8. the 2A
Thu Oct 11, 2012, 05:29 PM
Oct 2012

"...I would agree that nothing in the 2nd Amendment suggests that exercise of this "right" for other uses..."

Therein rests an essential of the right. Part of the idea of a militia enables the people (and I mean any number of people) to act as a militia. If a threat exists and the formal militia leadership are unavailable or inaccessible, one or more individuals would/could/should take action against the threat. That may mean having Paul Revere's descendant send a text on his iPhone about an invasion of Boston by folks from Newfoundland or just one single mom using a shotgun to discourage the guy trying to kick down her door.


"...in my view, once the need for individuals to bring their own arms to participate in a militia went away, then the original intent of the Amendment evaporates..."

You can see from my response above why I have a problem with this.



BTW, thanks for your reply.

 

slackmaster

(60,567 posts)
4. The militia clause explains why it is important for the people to have the right to keep and bear...
Thu Oct 11, 2012, 04:29 PM
Oct 2012

...arms. This sentence:

A zesty sauce, being necessary for the creation of a well-prepared pizza, the right of the people to grow and harvest San Marzano tomatoes shall not be infringed.

...does NOT mean that the only purpose for which people may grow San Marzano tomatoes is for the preparation of pizza. People have always had the right to grow San Marzanos. The sauce clause explains why preservation of the right to grow and harvest San Marzanos is important.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,481 posts)
9. One of my key issues...
Thu Oct 11, 2012, 05:32 PM
Oct 2012

...is that the focused protection of the 2A should not be construed to explain in its entirety the essence right being protected.

 

Atypical Liberal

(5,412 posts)
5. To state one reason for keeping and bearing arms.
Thu Oct 11, 2012, 05:04 PM
Oct 2012

The second amendment simply provides one reason, perhaps even the main reason for people to keep and bear arms: so that they could function as military troops in an emergency.

It does not, however, state that this is the only reason to keep and bear arms.

For example, I could say, "I am out of bread, I am going to the store."

This does not imply that stores only sell bread, or that the only reason I go to stores is to buy bread.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
15. The Federal government is announcing its interest in the Second Amendment's...
Thu Oct 11, 2012, 06:06 PM
Oct 2012

right to keep and bear arms; that is, so it can fulfill its obligations regarding militia as stated in the Articles. Otherwise, the "people" have a right to keep and bear arms. The Fed's interest is important, but only a specific reason why IT wants this right to be preserved. It is NOT the raison d'etre for the Second.

Studies have revealed, contrary to some journalists' popular opinion, that most constitutional scholars, political scientist, lawyers, historians and the like who have studied the Second and published in scholarly journals support the view that 2A protects an INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms, to such an extent that this "individual" interpretation is seen as the "standard model" for explaining 2A.

Here in part is Section 20 of the Rhode Island Constitution: "Freedom of press. -- The liberty of the press being essential to the security of freedom in a state, any person may publish sentiments on any subject, being responsible for the abuse of that liberty..."

http://webserver.rilin.state.ri.us/RiConstitution/C01.html

Would a modern court hold that one has the right to "publish sentiments on any subject" as long as it conforms to and comports with Rhodie Island's definition of "liberty of the press [being] essential to the security of freedom in a state...?" I don't think so, and if such a freedom was so conditioned, the potential of abuse in subjecting the right to publish to the "security of freedom in a state" would be great. Rhode Island also "announces" why, as a state, it is interested in freedom of the press, but it does not condition or limited that freedom.

You will find this awkward prefatory language in other constitutions as well. Thanks for your post.

 
11. Here's the problem for my fellow pro gun people
Thu Oct 11, 2012, 05:33 PM
Oct 2012

The people you're arguing with aren't approaching this from a logical standpoint. They approach it from an emotional angle. Once you understand that they consider themselves "superior" to you for refusing to use weapons then you can understand their arguments and their willingness to twist the facts for the "greater good".

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,481 posts)
14. Not be a quoting...
Thu Oct 11, 2012, 05:46 PM
Oct 2012

...an R here but, it's true, no one has a monopoly on truth. Not that I expect any special consideration but there is a key piece of wisdom that paraphrased says, 'Always be ready to explain your beliefs, but do so with gentleness and with respect.'

I hope my discussions will be among equals, and that the folks that are 'better than me' find a common ground.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
12. I keep thinking that it was worded the way it was because at that time
Thu Oct 11, 2012, 05:34 PM
Oct 2012

there was no Military and we were expected to pay for our own arms. The collective could exist only as strong as the individuals that formed it. Rich men reported for duty with a well fed and shoed horse, goodworking order arms and ammunition, plus a valet.
The less weatlhy reported for duty needing a pair of shoes . . .

Pybus (2005) estimates that about 20,000 slaves defected to or were captured by the British, of whom about 8,000 died from disease or wounds or were recaptured by the Patriots, and 12,000 left the country at the end of the war, for freedom in Canada or slavery in the West Indies.[34]

Baller (2006) examines family dynamics and mobilization for the Revolution in central Massachusetts. He reports that warfare and the farming culture were sometimes incompatible. Militiamen found that living and working on the family farm had not prepared them for wartime marches and the rigors of camp life. Rugged individualism conflicted with military discipline and regimentation. A man's birth order often influenced his military recruitment, as younger sons went to war and older sons took charge of the farm. A person's family responsibilities and the prevalent patriarchy could impede mobilization. Harvesting duties and family emergencies pulled men home regardless of the sergeant's orders. Some relatives might be Loyalists, creating internal strains. On the whole, historians conclude the Revolution's effect on patriarchy and inheritance patterns favored egalitarianism.[35]

McDonnell, (2006) shows a grave complication in Virginia's mobilization of troops was the conflicting interests of distinct social classes, which tended to undercut a unified commitment to the Patriot cause. The Assembly balanced the competing demands of elite slave owning planters, the middling yeomen (some owning a few slaves), and landless indentured servants, among other groups. The Assembly used deferments, taxes, military service substitute, and conscription to resolve the tensions. Unresolved class conflict, however, made these laws less effective. There were violent protests, many cases of evasion, and large-scale desertion, so that Virginia's contributions came at embarrassingly low levels. With the British invasion of the state in 1781, Virginia was mired in class division as its native son, George Washington, made desperate appeals for troops.[36]

American armies and militias
When the war began, the 13 colonies lacked a professional army or navy. Each colony sponsored local militia. Militiamen were lightly armed, had little training, and usually did not have uniforms. Their units served for only a few weeks or months at a time, were reluctant to travel far from home and thus were unavailable for extended operations, and lacked the training and discipline of soldiers with more experience. If properly used, however, their numbers could help the Continental armies overwhelm smaller British forces, as at the battles of Concord, Bennington and Saratoga, and the siege of Boston. Both sides used partisan warfare but the Americans effectively suppressed Loyalist activity when British regulars were not in the area.[14]

Seeking to coordinate military efforts, the Continental Congress established (on paper) a regular army on June 14, 1775, and appointed George Washington as commander-in-chief. The development of the Continental Army was always a work in progress, and Washington used both his regulars and state militia throughout the war.

The United States Marine Corps traces its institutional roots to the Continental Marines of the war, formed at Tun Tavern in Philadelphia, by a resolution of the Continental Congress on November 10, 1775, a date regarded and celebrated as the birthday of the Marine Corps. At the beginning of 1776, Washington's army had 20,000 men, with two-thirds enlisted in the Continental Army and the other third in the various state militias.[15] At the end of the American Revolution in 1783, both the Continental Navy and Continental Marines were disbanded. About 250,000 men served as regulars or as militiamen for the Revolutionary cause in the eight years of the war, but there were never more than 90,000 men under arms at one time.

Armies were small by European standards of the era, largely attributable to limitations such as lack of powder and other logistical capabilities on the American side.[16] It was also difficult for Great Britain to transport troops across the Atlantic and they depended on local supplies that the Patriots tried to cut off. By comparison, Duffy notes that Frederick the Great usually commanded from 23,000 to 50,000 in battle. Both figures pale in comparison to the armies that would be fielded in the early 19th century, where troop formations approached or exceeded 100,000 men.

more at link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_War


The Americans Undertake a Revolution
1776-77
British Military Advantages
The American colonies had both strengths and weaknesses in terms of undertaking a revolution. The colonial population of well over two million was nearly one third of that in Britain (McCusker and Menard, 1985). The growth in the colonial economy had generated a remarkably high level of per capita wealth and income (Jones, 1980). Yet the hurdles confronting the Americans in achieving independence were indeed formidable. The British military had an array of advantages. With virtual control of the Atlantic its navy could attack anywhere along the American coast at will and would have borne logistical support for the army without much interference. A large core of experienced officers commanded a highly disciplined and well-drilled army in the large-unit tactics of eighteenth century European warfare. By these measures the American military would have great difficulty in defeating the British. Its navy was small. The Continental Army had relatively few officers proficient in large-unit military tactics. Lacking both the numbers and the discipline of its adversary the American army was unlikely to be able to meet the British army on equal terms on the battlefield (Higginbotham, 1977).

British Financial Advantages
In addition, the British were in a better position than the Americans to finance a war. A tax system was in place that had provided substantial revenue during previous colonial wars. Also for a variety of reasons the government had acquired an exceptional capacity to generate debt to fund wartime expenses (North and Weingast, 1989). For the Continental Congress the situation was much different. After declaring independence Congress had set about defining the institutional relationship between it and the former colonies. The powers granted to Congress were established under the Articles of Confederation. Reflecting the political environment neither the power to tax nor the power to regulate commerce was given to Congress. Having no tax system to generate revenue also made it very difficult to borrow money. According to the Articles the states were to make voluntary payments to Congress for its war efforts. This precarious revenue system was to hamper funding by Congress throughout the war (Baack, 2001).

Military and Financial Factors Determine Strategy
It was within these military and financial constraints that the war strategies by the British and the Americans were developed. In terms of military strategies both of the contestants realized that America was simply too large for the British army to occupy all of the cities and countryside. This being the case the British decided initially that they would try to impose a naval blockade and capture major American seaports. Having already occupied Boston, the British during 1776 and 1777 took New York, Newport, and Philadelphia. With plenty of room to maneuver his forces and unable to match those of the British, George Washington chose to engage in a war of attrition. The purpose was twofold. First, by not engaging in an all out offensive Washington reduced the probability of losing his army. Second, over time the British might tire of the war.

Saratoga
Frustrated without a conclusive victory, the British altered their strategy. During 1777 a plan was devised to cut off New England from the rest of the colonies, contain the Continental Army, and then defeat it. An army was assembled in Canada under the command of General Burgoyne and then sent to and down along the Hudson River. It was to link up with an army sent from New York City. Unfortunately for the British the plan totally unraveled as in October Burgoyne's army was defeated at the battle of Saratoga and forced to surrender (Ketchum, 1997).

The American Financial Situation Deteriorates
With the victory at Saratoga the military side of the war had improved considerably for the Americans. However, the financial situation was seriously deteriorating. The states to this point had made no voluntary payments to Congress. At the same time the continental currency had to compete with a variety of other currencies for resources. The states were issuing their own individual currencies to help finance expenditures. Moreover the British in an effort to destroy the funding system of the Continental Congress had undertaken a covert program of counterfeiting the Continental dollar. These dollars were printed and then distributed throughout the former colonies by the British army and agents loyal to the Crown (Newman, 1957). Altogether this expansion of the nominal money supply in the colonies led to a rapid depreciation of the Continental dollar (Calomiris, 1988, Michener, 1988). Furthermore, inflation may have been enhanced by any negative impact upon output resulting from the disruption of markets along with the destruction of property and loss of able-bodied men (Buel, 1998). By the end of 1777 inflation had reduced the specie value of the Continental to about twenty percent of what it had been when originally issued. This rapid decline in value was becoming a serious problem for Congress in that up to this point almost ninety percent of its revenue had been generated from currency emissions.

more at link:
http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/baack.war.revolutionary.us

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,481 posts)
18. After the Revolution...
Thu Oct 11, 2012, 06:25 PM
Oct 2012

...Washington disbanded the Continental Army. While there was/is no Constitutional prohibition on a standing army, there was strong sentiment against it. I'm quite sure that as distasteful as a standing army was the American militia was at the time uniquely American, victorious and a key point of pride. This concept was a cornerstone of American ideals.



Off topic and trivia: Prior to the Battle of Saratoga a number of British campaigns in New England met with failure. One of the goals of these British attacks were also to isolate the New England states. Among these somewhat minor battles is the Battle of Ridgefield (April 1777). Like the battles of Lexington and Concord, militia and minutemen were mobilized on short notice. The alert was delivered by Sybil Ludington. She was 16 years old at the time, and an amazing person. At the time of his ride Paul Revere was 40.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_Ludington

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
24. thanks for that info and the link. I am sorely tempted to go post about Sybil
Thu Oct 11, 2012, 08:54 PM
Oct 2012

in the History of Feminism

I really think that the Founding Fathers expected Individuals to come to the aid of the country in the time of need and knew that they should be well armed. It also behooved the citizens to be well equipped for the own private safety and the Founding Fathers tried to explain it all in that One Sentence. They wanted to be build a Nation of Equal Individauls who shared repsonsiblity and reaped the benefits of all they expected this great country to become. They were tired of tyranny.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,481 posts)
27. You're welcome and go for it.
Thu Oct 11, 2012, 09:35 PM
Oct 2012

I told my wife and daughters about her. Her story is a real inspiration.

There is absolutely no shortage of great women in world and US history. Another of my favorites is Alice Paul. I'm sure she is well known. For a while I worked in Northern Virginia and everyday passed by the closed Lorton State Prison. One day I looked up its history. Just another of the things that make me try to not take anything for granted.

http://workhousemuseums.org/



Betsy Ross was well known to me having grown up in Philadelphia but I researched her as well. She outlived John Ross, her first husband, and her next two husbands as well. Her grandfather help build the structure that is now called Independence Hall. She eloped with John Ross and married in a tavern by William Franklin, Benjamin's son who was the governor of New Jersey.

Mary Randolph was the very first buried in what is now Arlington Cemetery. She wrote the very first uniquely American cookbook.
http://arlingtoncemetery.net/maryrand.htm

Gertrude Simmons Bonnin is also buried there and her story is an inspiring one.
The youngest person buried in Arlington Cemetery is a little girl but that's a much sadder story.

My wife a daughters are American women and I'm blessed to have them.

fightthegoodfightnow

(7,042 posts)
20. WHY HAVE CONSENSUS AND LAWS ENACTED BY THE PEOPLE (PLURAL).....
Thu Oct 11, 2012, 07:55 PM
Oct 2012

...for the collective good?

Right....because we live in a democracy and corporations can't cast a vote.

Nice try.

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