The Other Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell: Gun Policy

[SecularMotion]

More than 100,000 Americans are shot every year, and more than 30,000 of them die – 12,000 in gun homicides. You would think someone might ask the presidential candidates their plan for protecting Americans. A series of mass shootings recently shocked the nation. Felons easily obtain firearms illegally. But neither party wants to talk about gun policy-for different reasons.

President Obama’s record is nothing to boast about, though he has offered useful suggestions. In contrast, Romney would apparently do whatever the gun lobby wants.

That’s what Republicans did in Florida. How did it work? After Republicans took control of the legislature and Governorship in 1999, they passed 38 gun-friendly bills culminating in the 2005 Stand Your Ground/Shoot First law, which allows anyone to use deadly force in self-defense in public places even if they could avoid doing so. The Tampa Bay Times found that in almost one-third of Stand Your Ground cases analyzed, “defendants initiated the fight, shot an unarmed person or pursued their victim-and still went free.” According to the latest CDC data, between 2005 and 2009 Florida’s gun homicide rate jumped 21%. Since more people brought guns into their homes, between 2005 and 2009 Florida’s firearm suicide rate rose 20%. (The total suicide rate rose 16%.) (Suicide attempts with firearms are far more likely to be lethal than attempts by other means. See www.MeansMatter.org)

http://blog.bradycampaign.org/?cat=203

[orpupilofnature57]

1. That's why I have trouble talking with Gun advocates

Hidden Agenda .

[Reasonable_Argument]

4. What "hidden agenda" would that be?

I'm pretty open and honest about my views on gun rights. No need to hide it.

[Eleanors38]

12. "Hidden agenda?" Don't be bashful. Tell us.nt

[jenw2]

26. Their agenda is not hidden

They want more people to die violent deaths.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

40. who do you thinking you are speaking for? certainly, not me - nor dare I say anyone

else in this group. If you are, point them out to me and I will personally ask that they be banned from DU. so then, Please Do - Name Names.

[safeinOhio]

2. While not a fan of Brady campaign,

this law was pushed and passed in many states with the help of ALEC. This group is not your friend. Other laws this group pushed thru were, banning living wages
crippling collective bargaining
privatizing our schools
attacking voting rights
selling prisons to the highest bidder.

On this issue, go ahead and bitch about Brady, just don't leave out ALEC.

[gejohnston]

8. ALEC's agenda is only

what its member organizations want. While not a fan of ALEC, it is simply a funnel.

[ileus]

3. That why I have trouble talking with gun banners.

Hidden agenda.

[Clames]

6. Poorly hidden agenda at that.

n/t

[rDigital]

9. [phone]

[hack89]

5. There were only 8,775 gun homicides in 2010

a drop from 10,225 in 2006.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl08.xls

[russ1943]

24. Not exactly.

Another year and another post from someone in the dungeon who thinks they know what the statistics published in the FBI’s UCR mean. Readers of the Uniform Crime Report are again reminded to read the text as well as look at the dizzying array of charts and tables.
Post #5 does provide a (much appreciated) source link to the FBI’s UCR for 2010, specifically Expanded Homicide Data Table 8. Does this Expanded Homicide Data provide the number of gun homicides? No, not really. Of the estimated total 14,748 persons who were murdered nationwide in 2010, supplemental homicide data regarding weapon use was available for 12,996 of them, just 88.1% of that total. The Griffin Dix blog post referenced in the OP didn’t state a specific year but used the phrase “every year”. For the purpose intended in the blog, to state there were 12,000 gun homicides was applicable. Post #5 introduced the years 2010 and 2006. Using WISQARS Homicide Firearm Deaths, they averaged 12034.6 for that time frame 2006 thru 2010. Even using just those two years 2006 & 2010 they averaged 11934.5.
WISQARS @ http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10us.html

[oneshooter]

25. Do you activly support the Brady Campaign or the VPC?

[friendly_iconoclast]

27. I doubt the method makes a whit of difference to the victims and their families

[hack89]

35. So he chooses and "averages" his numbers to avoid awkward trends

wouldn't want to leave anyone with the impression that gun deaths have been steadily declining for years.

[4th law of robotics]

7. "Crime is down across the board . . . what are you as a candidate going to do about it!?!?!?" nt

[rDigital]

10. All that you delicate flowers care about are facts, it makes me crazy.

[rDigital]

11. Keep the BradySpam coming, it's great target practice for the uninitiated. nt

[Eleanors38]

13. Bradys: GOP-founded, GOP-led. Nt

[friendly_iconoclast]

14. That might explain why they've been such a godsend to the NRA.

Seriously.

Think about it from the NRA's POV for a minute: Would you rather go up against a) effective, well-financed opponents, or
b) the political equivalent of the 2012 Red Sox (or the Washington Generals, if you prefer)?

[Eleanors38]

15. The bonus: MSM is the only viable activism for the controllers, so NRA can dump on them, too.nt

[orpupilofnature57]

16. Bingo!!!!!

[fightthegoodfightnow]

18. Missed the Target

Respond to the substance of the statement rather than your perceived stereotypes of an organization you dislike.

Please.

Was there anything you dispute? Since you haven't stated or won't state, you missed the target.

[Clames]

22. Ever take you own advice?

Or do you enjoy yelling at kettles so much? You don't even know what the target is...

[fightthegoodfightnow]

17. Bravo- Worth Repeating

WORTH REPEATING

That’s what Republicans did in Florida. How did it work? After Republicans took control of the legislature and Governorship in 1999, they passed 38 gun-friendly bills culminating in the 2005 Stand Your Ground/Shoot First law, which allows anyone to use deadly force in self-defense in public places even if they could avoid doing so. The Tampa Bay Times found that in almost one-third of Stand Your Ground cases analyzed, “defendants initiated the fight, shot an unarmed person or pursued their victim-and still went free.” According to the latest CDC data, between 2005 and 2009 Florida’s gun homicide rate jumped 21%. Since more people brought guns into their homes, between 2005 and 2009 Florida’s firearm suicide rate rose 20%. (The total suicide rate rose 16%.) (Suicide attempts with firearms are far more likely to be lethal than attempts by other means. See www.MeansMatter.org)

[gejohnston]

19. not that worth mentioning

defendants initiated the fight, shot an unarmed person or pursued their victim-and still went free.” According to the latest CDC data, between 2005 and 2009 Florida’s gun homicide rate jumped 21%.

wrong. There were a couple of cases mentioned, but there is no evidence that didn't happen under DTR either. Florida's justifiable homicide rate also increased. I noticed it didn't cite the FBI UCR. Why?
Suicide rates are unrelated to self defense law.
How about when SYG was passed in Illinois in 1961? SYG is not unique to Florida, nor did it start there.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

20. fact

Gun homicides jumped. Period.

[gejohnston]

21. only those ruled justifiable

which only means there may be innocent people in prison because of the old law. There also has been an increase in justifiable by cops, which has nothing to do with SYG. Why cite the CDC when the FBI actually keeps tabs on it? Does the CDC in fact say that?

[russ1943]

29. Care to respond?

In response to fightthegood fightnow’s #17
#19 GE says……… “wrong”………………& I noticed it didn't cite the FBI UCR. Why?
What are you claiming is wrong?
What difference does it make who the blogger cites? And how is anyone supposed to know why?
In response to # 20’s ………” Gun homicides jumped. Period.” gejohnston responds “only those ruled justifiable”.
The blog fightthegoodfightnow quotes, clearly states “between 2005 and 2009 Florida’s gun homicide rate jumped 21%”. That is not only those ruled justifiable but the GUN HOMICIDE RATE just as fightthegoodfightnow posted.
GE then again ASKS the “WHY CITE THE CDC WHEN THE FBI ACTUALLY KEEPS TABS ON IT?
Maybe if you are really interested in the information under discussion you could provide us where those FBI tabs are, and what they are. You’d probably have to contact the blog’s author to know WHY.

[gejohnston]

31. I know why

because the blogger and the organization are about propaganda.
I am claiming that the rate has dropped, the increase is only due to changes in population. By only counting the raw number, without putting it in context, makes the blog misleading at best, but mostly dishonest.

[oneshooter]

37. Do you activly support the Brady Campaign or the VPC?

[friendly_iconoclast]

23. Justifiable homicides are justifiable regardless of method...

...and suicides are tragic regardless of method, as guns don't actually make you deader. If you're going to lump in suicides with other homicides, Japan is far more dangerous than Florida.

As far as murder goes, Florida's murder rate was down slightly in 2010 from what it was in 2004-2005 (numbers are rates per 100,000 population):

2004 5.4

2005 5.0

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_04.html


2010 5.2

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl05.xls



Still better than DC, however. Are you still sure about those gun laws? From the same pages:


2004 35.7
2005 35.4

(More than 3x Maryland's, btw 9.4 in 04, 9.9 in 05 )


2010 21.9 (Maryland 7.4)

[russ1943]

28. Florida's Gun homicides jumped from 2004 t0 2010. Period.

To a post that states “Gun homicides jumped. Period.”
Which is about Florida’s gun homicides You post a bunch of data re Florida’s MURDER RATES adding comparisons to DC (which isn’t a state) and Maryland.
Murder rates aren’t gun homicide rates.
The State of Florida although somewhat uncooperative with the FBI’s UCR publishes their GUN HOMICIDEs @ http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/getdoc/332e1b3d-2648-4b06-8be5-d322f340c95d/1971_fwd_murder_firearms.aspx
and my cursury calculations show a 22.7% increase in gun homicides & rate from 2004 to 2010. It’s late and math hasn’t been checked and it isn’t CDC sourced, but it’s pretty close to the blog author’s 21%.

[gejohnston]

30. but look at the rate

after adjusting for changes in population, which has it decreasing. That makes the blogger's claim less than honest, misleading at best.
What evidence do you have that Florida does not report their data to the FBI?
Since when did CDC give a shit about murder rates?

[russ1943]

33. Tigers win!

Look at the rate of WHAT?
My hasty calculation was for rate. I erroneously used the phrase “gun homicides & rate” when I calculated rate.
The number of 521 in 2005 to 669 in 2010 I calculate at 28%.
What is decreasing, from when to when?
The blogger’s figures are totally honest and not the least misleading.
If you really were sufficiently interested in this subject, a clue that there is a problem between Florida and the FBI’s UCR would be obvious. Check out http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl20.xls Table 20
CDC has some valuable resources regarding deaths. I still can’t tell though exactly where this blogger got his data he’s referenced but it’s likely more accurate than posts in this thread.

. It’s late and the Tigers Yankee game is over, good night all.

[gejohnston]

34. yes they are misleading

because the important figure is the rate, because of the population increase. If the NRA did same thing, you would be crying foul. Since we are talking about the Brady Campaign, he most likely made it up.
look at the murders per 100K, the context should have been self explanatory.

[russ1943]

39. You are blinded by your prejudices.

Can you read?
I calculated and posted the relevant rates. Florida’s GUN homicides, both the number and rate jumped over 20% from 2005 to2010. The blog and fighthegoodfightnow used the words “gun homicide rate jumped 21%. You say that is misleading?
You’ve posted no rate of anything for any time frame. You called the blog post propaganda and say I would cry foul if NRA did the same thing. I can say that if there is anyone spewing propaganda it is you. Yes I claim foul because you have made errors of fact and unsupportable claims. You’ve repeatedly claimed that FBI’s UCR could, no SHOULD be used to determine something and don’t say what or why. I’ve asked for you to produce your “FBI tabs” and you’ve provided nothing but criticism and repeated claims of something being misleading when the misrepresentative words are your posts.
You are representative of why I’ve pretty much quit bothering to post in this group.

[friendly_iconoclast]

41. If you were looking for an amen chorus, this is certainly the wrong group.

[gejohnston]

42. I can read just fine

it is misleading because it is not relevant in the real world, unless you are saying gun homicides are more tragic than any other means of homicide. I said the FBI keeps tabs on the issue, in the UCR. The raw number is meaningless, unless you are willing to say that Wyoming has fewer gun homicides, a total of five last year, because of its laxer gun laws.

[russ1943]

43. Then your posts demonstrate an inability to understand. Give it up, you are embarrassing yourself.

For those few who read these posts in this group and really are interested in the effort to present data as accurate as possible;
WISQARS http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/index.html This is CDC based and although I had forgotten about a recent aspect of it during the early AM baseball game, it can be used to determine exactly what has been the subject of much discussion in this thread.
At the link above, if you click on the “Learn More and Query Fatal Data >>” link you will be offered the option to link to” Fatal Injury Reports”. The options there include a “Fatal Injury Reports 1999-2010, for National, Regional, and States (RESTRICTED)*”. You will have to agree to their restrictions and after you do you can do exactly what the blogger did in the OP where he wrote ………….”According to the latest CDC data, between 2005 and 2009 Florida’s gun homicide rate jumped 21%...............”
This access to state data is what’s new and different.
Now you check/click on;
1. What was the intent or manner of the injury? (Select one) click on Homicide
2. What was the cause or mechanism of the injury? (Select one) click on firearm
3. Select specific options. Census Region/State; scroll to Florida
Year(s) of Report ; 2005 to 2009
Select output group(s). select 1. Year
Click on Submit Request
The table presented provides the fact that in 2005 the crude rate for firearm homicides was 3.55.
Also you can see the 2009 crude rate 4.34.
If you take 2005’s crude rate of 3.55 and add 21% then compare that answer (4.2955) to the crude rate of 2009 4.34 it seems that the blogger referenced was pretty close.
So what about those tabs FBI’s UCR keep? If anyone wants to provide any links from the FBI or anywhere else that provides this information, I’ll gladly forward them to the author.

[gejohnston]

44. Understand what?

I understand quite well, You on the other hand, I'm not so sure. What the blogger is claiming, or trying to claim, is that "gun violence in Florida is on the increase" when you look at the larger picture, the facts don't support to claim. If you read closer, and listen to that dog whistle, he is saying that SYG caused an increase in murder rates. Question is, why only Florida? Did Illinois have the same experience after it passed its SYG law in 1961? Other states that passed SYG?

So what about those tabs FBI’s UCR keep? If anyone wants to provide any links from the FBI or anywhere else that provides this information, I’ll gladly forward them to the author.

you have poor reading skills. If anyone is embarrasing themselves it is you. According to the FBI and Florida's the trend is down. Cherry picking a couple of years, really doesn't say much.

[hack89]

36. How much did Florida's population change? nt

[oneshooter]

38. Do you activly support the Brady Campaign or the VPC?

[russ1943]

32. Correct.

[friendly_iconoclast]

45. Also irrelevant, as the overall murder rate is down.