Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumPro-Gun Extremists Jumping To Conclusions And Blaming Child Shooting Victims
Sound familiar? This time I'm not talking about Trayvon Martin and his shooter, child-killer George Zimmerman. No, this time I'm talking about a different shooting that happened this week in Oregon, very close to where I am.
Here's the facts that have been released so far: A man in Springfield, Oregon, annoyed at the loud house party across the street at 2:00 AM, goes out in his driveway and yells at the kids there to be quiet instead of calling the police. Some of the kids come out to him. The man had brought a gun with him. According to one of the children, the man puts a gun to the chest of one boy and pulls the trigger, but the gun misfires. The man then opens fire on the other kids, hitting one boy in the rear end and hitting a 15-year old girl in the thigh. The children go to the hospital. The man is questioned by police and released back home. No arrests.
http://newtrajectory.blogspot.com/2012/07/pro-gun-extremists-jumping-to.html
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ileus
(15,396 posts)Reasonable_Argument
(881 posts)To really form an opinion on the shooting. I doubt that'll stop you from demonizing the shooter and holding up the teens as saints though.
Missycim
(950 posts)I know you want to paint all CC'ers as gone toting loose cannons but please enough with the hyperbole.
Clames
(2,038 posts)Pretty much all they have these days.
RegieRocker
(4,226 posts)their agenda. Tasteless
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)...hyperbole!!!!!!
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,480 posts)...count anyone under 20 as a "child".
Missycim
(950 posts)what does IIRC mean?
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,480 posts)...good lookin' out.
you said "if I recall correctly" and since I just woke up and haven't had my coffee yet, I am sitting here waiting for the rest of the reply lol I need to wake up
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)Is that the best you can come up with?
WTF!
Who cares how old the victim is....you know the one shout and KILLED for making too much noise. No one deserves to die for being LOUD.
Give me a break.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,480 posts)...you're working with a really poor grasp of the story. If the "children" are allowed to say what they want, play what they want, as loud as they want, a neighbor can also, and certainly did in this case, do the same. He was assaulted by the "children" and defended himself.
Yes, I think that was one of the victim's concerns when he stood in his driveway packing heat and yelled at the "children" to knock off the noise.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)Another vigalante 'assaulted' by going outside, putting himself in an unnecessary and confrontational position, to complain about NOISE and then surprised by the response of 20 drunks (i'm guessing they got louder) none of whom pulled a gun on anyone unlike this a-hole who shot and killed someone rather than call the cops in the first place.
I hope they throw away the keys.
PS- If you hear me screaming at you, using you ridiculous argument, I'm assaulting you and warrant being shot.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,480 posts)Who would that be? I read the article and don't recall anyone being killed.
Therefore, yes, poor grasp.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)Let me fix now.
OLD
Another vigalante 'assaulted' by going outside, putting himself in an unnecessary and confrontational position, to complain about NOISE and then surprised by the response of 20 drunks (i'm guessing they got louder) none of whom pulled a gun on anyone unlike this a-hole who shot and killed someone rather than call the cops in the first place.
I hope they throw away the keys.
PS- If you hear me screaming at you, using you ridiculous argument, I'm assaulting you and warrant being shot.
NEW
Another vigalante 'assaulted' by going outside, putting himself in an unnecessary and confrontational position, to complain about NOISE and then surprised by the response of 20 drunks (i'm guessing they got louder) none of whom pulled a gun on anyone unlike this a-hole who shot THREE people rather than call the cops in the first place.
I hope they throw away the keys.
PS- If you hear me screaming at you, using you ridiculous argument, I'm assaulting you and warrant being shot.
Really.... Is that the best you can do......three people SHOT including a 15 year old girl (who you characterized falsely as an adult) shot by an a-hole who went out of his way to pick a fight.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,480 posts)...YOU can do? Falsely accusing me of saying that a 15 Y.O. girl was an adult? However, I would have to say that yelling at a crowd of drunk teenagers isn't a wise choice. 
Rule #26: Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
Yes, you do, but have a nice evening.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)...when you stated they consider anyone under 20 a ......how did you put it.... A 'child'... Nice.
She was 15!!!!
But you are right.... Her age is perhaps irrelevant
She was unarmed.
She did not physically assault anyone.
She was shot ( along with two others) for being loud and perhaps obnoxious by a vigilante who could have called a cop rather than put himself in that position of leaving his house.
And yet you defend him.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)New winner for definition failure, right there folks.
Oh, and it looks like your math is teh phale two.
You still don't understand how to do this stuff, do you?
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)You ask: Yelling at illegally drinking people violating noise ordinances is being "a vigilante"?
He didn't just 'yell' at them. He pulled a gun out and shot them taking the law into his own hands.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)or you are flat-out lying.
At the risk of repeating myself... You don't know how to do this, do you?
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)Calling me ignorant or a liar without specific foundation or reference is so profound.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)?
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)What Claims Haven't Matched Regarding the Incident?
Too bad for you.
What a surprise... I'm, according to you, a liar, stupid, ignorant and now illiterate.
Feel better.
Again I ask.....What Claims Haven't Matched Regarding the Incident other than the murder claim retracted by me in the thread.......specifically....you can do...I know you can....you've already told me how much smarter you are. LOL.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)where this story is concerned. First, nobody was killed. Second, two people where hit by bullets, not three. They were treated and released. Fairly minor bullet wounds. I agree that the old man should have called the cops. Not because what he did was wrong, but because it brought all kinds of trouble to him. He could have avoided that. The youths across the street broke all kinds of laws. The old man broke no laws that night.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)Yes...I was corrected...shots... Not murder.
Ok....if you say two rather than three....gosh...ok
Yes...I agree he should have called cops.
In which case, we wouldn't be arguing over who was or how many were shot or murdered.
Agree?
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)in your point about attempted murder. This is obviously a case of self-defense. Your dislike of what happened here seems to be clouding your judgment and common sense.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)No where in that story does it say HE was assaulted. The police have not concluded that. The police made no arrests of the kids. Period.
The shooter is now back peddling and claiming 'self defense' without any evidence to support (no weapons on the kids, no witnesses to affirm his claim). The reality is he put himself in that position VOLUNTARILY rather than call the police.... A fact you seem to ignore.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Link to the actual news article about the incident.
http://special.registerguard.com/turin/2012/jul/03/two-teens-wounded-after-party-argument-escalates/
Detective Sgt. David Lewis said that at that point some of the teens came across the street to confront the neighbor, who was in his driveway.
Lewis said nearly all of the teens at the party had been drinking and no adults were home at the time.
A fight ensued and the neighbor pulled out a gun he was carrying and fired three shots, hitting the two teens once each, Lewis said. The neighbor sustained injuries consistent with having been assaulted, and he was carrying the handgun legally, Lewis said...
Now, are we supposed to believe you or our lying eyes?
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)??
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)before attempting to remedy the problem at the lowest possible level.
You are attempting to paint this man in the light of ill-intentions to justify your mistaken accusation/insinuation of criminal behavior.
Last time: You are doing this all wrong.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)How did that work out?
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)decided it was sufficient reason to illegally attack someone acting entirely lawfully and in the spirit of community activism.
Damn, you're bad at this. 
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts).
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Protip: Leave confabulation to the Italian/Oregonian/Jerseyite poster. You'll gain much more credibility that way...
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)The man was assaulted. Ten of the youths were cited for underage drinking. I don't think that rises to the level of an arrest, but they were given citations. How can you get so many of the facts wrong? Is it deliberate or did you not actually read the stories about this case? If you got all of your information from the blog, well there's your problem right there.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts).
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)That's exactly the position you're advocating.
I'll go spread the word.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)Like stupidly arguing with 20 loud, obnoxious drunks?
Stupid. Just stupid.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Remember, this happened in July. A little Googling would have shown the two news accounts linked to elsewhere in the comments.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)God grief....and I'll leave you to argue that the police never show up! He didn't even try.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)nearly every single fact in this situation wrong? Is this how always interact with people?
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)Nah..just one which I already noted...and no doubt you never heard.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)You claimed several times that the man shot and KILLED someone. You claimed that he shot 3 people instead of 2, you also claimed that he was not assaulted. Those are significant factual errors. Not only did this man not kill anybody, he did not even significantly injure anyone. Both of the youths were treated and released.
Sure, I agree that it would have been better had this guy called the cops and not tried to handle the situation himself. Would you agree that the youths involved should not have been drinking, had loud music, and should NOT have assaulted this man? By the way, the only laws broken that night were by the youths.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)Both of which I retracted.
So much for everything.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)You made three significant errors in your posts about this incident, not two. Actually, you made four errors of fact. You said someone was killed, I'd call that significant. You claimed three were shot instead of two, you claimed the man was not assaulted, and you claimed the youths were not 'arrested' for breaking any laws when in fact they did get citations for underage drinking. So much for facts.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)I apologized and retracted.
Let me know when you are ready to move on and address the subsequent points you seem so eager to ignore. Otherwise you just sound petty.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Its a blog for "Ceasefire Oregon" done by Baldr Odinson who also claims authorship of blogs:
Mikeb302000
Kid Shootings
In addtion to the cited New Trajectory. (http://www.blogger.com/profile/11818934498607763309http://www.blogger.com/profile/11818934498607763309)
In the blog post he cites a pro gun site.(http://www.northwestfirearms.com/legal-political/95714-springfield-man-shoots-teens-july-1-2012-a.html) which leads with an unattributed news report indicating the homeowner was indeed assaulted.
This OP is bad, even for this poster.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)Thanks for the legwork.
Trunk Monkey
(950 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)rDigital
(2,239 posts)rDigital
(2,239 posts)Google cache?
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)declared bias.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)The clock is ticking....
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)No.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)..about the voices in your head about a retraction you think you heard from the little men in you ears channeling my thoughts.
Now back to reality.
Nothing about guns.
No argument or debate worthy of an opponent.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)http://www.registerguard.com/web/news/cityregion/28329761-41/party-neighbor-police-teens-lewis.html.csp
Although it was actually a boy and a girl that were shot. This story indicates that after yelling at the teens to quiet down, some of them came across the street to confront the old man in his driveway. An argument turned into a fight. The old man was being assaulted and he then pulled his gun and shot three times hitting the two teens. The story also indicates the man had injuries consistent with being assaulted.
I believe everyone would have been better served had the man called police about the teens having a loud party (10 of them got cited for underage drinking).
rDigital
(2,239 posts)PavePusher
(15,374 posts)it's a public service.
Physically attacking someone, after crossing the street and trespassing on their property is certainly grounds for violent self-defense. Please note the disparity of force involved, young teens against a person of rather greater age.
Legal, moral and ethical. Good for the old man.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)It's just that this guy did bring a whole lot of trouble upon himself that could have been avoided had he called the police instead of placing himself in danger.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)for any minor thing.... and that our kids feel entitled to attack people for correcting them when they are creating a disturbance.
The gentleman who yelled at them from across a street did absolutely nothing wrong.
former-republican
(2,163 posts)villager
(26,001 posts)n/t
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,480 posts) fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts).
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,480 posts)...just not a bad thing, kind of like a firearm is neither good nor bad. Its actions depend on those that use it.
aikoaiko
(34,174 posts)My experience with them is that they are some of the biggest liars on the Internet.
I'll wait until there is a more reliable source describing the facts of the case.
Atypical Liberal
(5,412 posts)"According to a Springfield Police Department report, the dispute began when a group of about 15 teenagers were having what was described as a loud party, with some of the youths gathering outside the house. A neighbor who lives across the street reportedly came out of his house and yelled at the teens to quiet down, police said.
Detective Sgt. David Lewis said that at that point some of the teens came across the street to confront the neighbor, who was in his driveway.
Lewis said nearly all of the teens at the party had been drinking and no adults were home at the time.
A fight ensued and the neighbor pulled out a gun he was carrying and fired three shots, hitting the two teens once each, Lewis said. The neighbor sustained injuries consistent with having been assaulted, and he was carrying the handgun legally, Lewis said."
This sounds like a justifiable shooting to me.
There is nothing wrong with going outside and yelling at people making a public nuisance. In fact I would prefer things be handled this way first rather than calling the police first and wasting public resources. It probably could have been handled better than by "yelling" but, at 2am in the morning I probably would not be in the best of moods, either.
Also, these "children" were having an unsupervised party with alcohol at 2am in the morning. This has nothing to do with the shooting (other than alcohol probably emboldened the already invincible-feeling teenagers), but it does go to the point that there are "children", and then there are "children".
The man was on his own property, where he had every right to be, when he was assaulted by the teenagers, and he sustained injuries from the assault.
The proper response by these "children" after being chastised for being noisy at 2am would have been for them to quiet down and take their party indoors. Instead they decided to assault the neighbor who yelled at them. Hopefully they have learned a valuable lesson.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)to make this appear different than it was.
