Gun Control advocates have got themselves in a tough spot....

[virginia mountainman]

I recently read an article where the writer mentioned that Gun Control advocates have got themselves in the odd position that no matter what they do, they end up loosing.. I thought about it and he was right. I will give examples..

The Assault Weapon ban, a victory turned into a major defeat, the ban in essence, banned very little and because of the ban, rifles that where not very common before hand became highly sought after and have been the most popular rifles in America.... The ban is now no more, and many of its supporters where shown the door. They would have been much better off if they had not said a word...

The "pout-rage" after every high profile shooting now, simply drums up MORE gun sales....Once again, they would have been much better off if they had not said a word...

High visibility "protests" tend to bring out about hugh number of the COUNTER demonstrators, usually way outnumbering them...I have seen gun control groups out numbered by about a 20 to 1 margin at the Virginia state legislature...We was their, because THEY where their....And that year was a banner year for gun rights here in the commonwealth....Had they stayed home, we would not have showed up in the numbers we did. Once again, they would have been much better off... I personally drove 4 hours one way to help face them down...

They get a high profile senator or congress critter to "give them lip service" or push their agenda, in most districts that sort of "talk" will get you thrown out of office, and again, if it gets played on the news, gun sales spike once again! Once again, they would have been much better off if they had not said a word.

If they actually manage to get a anti-gun bill to the floor for a vote?? All hell breaks loose in the much larger, highly motivated, and much more effective gun rights community, and 2nd amendment friendly legislators will start adding pro-gun bill to be voted on as well, and because known that they are being closely watched and the fear of being seen as anti gun, guess what happens...YEP, the gun control bill gets killed, and a NEW pro gun LAW is written. Actually this vehicle of loosing gun control seems to be the best way to do it...I have seen this phenomena happen several times in many states, Once again, they would have been much better off if they had not said a word.

Gun control advocates tend to make amazingly silly statements in front of the news cameras, For example, McCarthy's "shoulder thing that goes up" and "heat seeking bullets" news bits are rather infamous. Once again, they would have been much better off if they had not said a word as it is always better to have people THINK you don't know what your talking about than to open your mouth and PROVE it.

Gun Control advocates get another big dose of "pout-rage" over Starbucks and have a boycott....Well we all know what happened their.....Gun Rights advocates, that as I have mentioned before, vastly outnumber Gun Control advocates, and are highly motivated, opened their wallets and blew the boycott right out of the water..Once again, they would have been much better off if they had not said a word, and Starbucks would not have had a huge number of NEW customers wanting to throw money at them.

You know your in a bad position when quite literally everything you do, ends up back firing, and at the end of the day your in a worse position than before. You realize that you would have been MUCH better off had you not said a word.....

[Vox Moi]

1. When the argument is no control at all you got a loosing proposition.

My guess:
If you polled the rank and file of NRA members, you might find a surprising level of support for the notion that owning an assault rifle with a 100-round drum magazine is not a Constitutional right.
There are responsible - and sensible - gun owners. We should be talking with them.

[virginia mountainman]

3. Assault rifles have been banned since the 1930's

Simply put 100 round drums, jam..... They jammed in colorado, saving many lives, from what I have heard, the SHOTGUN was the real killer in that theater....Their is a reason the military does NOT use them, and prefers the 30rnd standard magazines.

Your use of the term "assault rifle" tells me that you don't understand the subject at hand. The term your shooting for is "assault weapon" this term was invented by the VPC to spread confusion. But hey, READ IT FOR YOURSELF ON THEIR WEBSITE...

The weapons' menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons "anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun" can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/awaconc.htm

Don't feel bad, they played on your confusion.... Now you know...

Polls say one thing, election results say another..

And besides, your swinging at straw men, this thread is about how gun control advocates are there own worst enemy.

[Vox Moi]

17. To say that a jammed 100 round magazine is a life-saver is absurd ...

Ask the people who were shot before it jammed.

[friendly_iconoclast]

21. Just having the 10-round ones won't help- look at Virginia Tech.

[rrneck]

23. A failure to feed makes the weapon inoperable.

He could have had ten thousand rounds but if the gun won't work they're dead weight. But the time it takes to clear the jam is time to hopefully escape or intervene. Unless the shooter has a backup weapon or he has established a kill zone - like a crowded theater - where people can't get away.

Anyone intent on mayhem and unconcerned about survival or escape can adjust their tactics before the ink in regulatory legislation is dry. Unless you harden the target to the level of an armed fortress.

[GreenStormCloud]

34. Do you really believe that he would not have bought a bunch of 20 round mags?

The naivete of anit-gunner amazes me. If you had banned the 100 round magazine you seem to believe that he would not have shot anybody at all. He would have simply gotten five 20 round magazines. The 20 rd mags are extremely reliable. Changing a magazine on rifle can be done in about three seconds. Your naivete would have resulted in MORE casualties, instead of none.

There have been two mass shooting involving extended magazines and in both cases the extended mag jammed, causing the shooting to stop.

[Eleanors38]

38. The VT murderer killed a record 32 using a...

A pistol with conventional mags. AW ban, mag bans would have done nothing to stop this. So wny the monotonous call for prohibition?

[gejohnston]

4. since assault rifles have been strictly regulated since the 1930s

and I don't see anyone wanting to repeal the NFA, or any other current federal law, you are right. According to US v Miller, an assault rifle is a protected weapon, because of its military use.

Personally, I would rather the bad guy have the mall ninja drum magazine over multiple box magazines. Why? All I have to do is take cover until the magazine causes the gun to jam, and it will. If Holmes didn't have the shotgun or pistols, he would have gotten maybe 10-15 rounds off.

[Vox Moi]

16. The assault rifle wasn't invented until WWII: Germany's Sturmgewer.

Until then there were machine pistols and sub-machine guns.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

25. re: "The assault rifle wasn't invented until WWII..."

Please explain the functional difference, aside from the round fired, between the Thompson (M1921, M1928 and/or M1A1) and the German Sturmgewehr.

In fact these two firearms are very close in functionality. The term "assault rifle", (Sturmgewehr, auf Deutsche) was invented in WWII as a name for German rifle.

Rifles capable of full-auto fire (that is full-time full-auto or select fire) have been heavily regulate since the 1930s and require special authorization from the ATF for transfer of ownership. In point of fact, a semi-auto rifle IS NOT an assault rifle.

[Vox Moi]

30. Thompson vs Sturmgewer

Different in cartridge size, muzzle velocity and effective range.
The Thompson fires a .45 pistol cartridge with a muzzle velocity of around 900 f/s and has an effective range of about 50-60 yards.
A Sturmgewer fires a 7.92 mm short rifle cartridge for a muzzle velocity of around 2100 f/s with an effective range of 250-300 yards.
In general, assault rifles have a much higher muzzle velocity and longer range than sub-machine guns.
I was responding to the post that claimed that assault rifles were banned since the 1930's but the class did not exist then.
I think we agree that in a legal sense, the two weapons have much in common and had the Sturmgewer or any assault rifle been around in 1930 then it would have considered a machine gun.
In a practical sense I would not want to be downrange of either type.

[4th law of robotics]

43. Today I learned: the human skin can resist bullets fired at 900 f/s or less

Making such guns harmless.

We are truly a remarkable species.

[socialindependocrat]

53. You heard that from Todd Aiken, didn't you?

Under what conditions?

[gejohnston]

27. the key word is select fire

which means you select from semi to full auto, that makes it a machine gun under federal law. How the law defines something is not always the same as what it technically is. For example, a pistol with a removable shoulder stock is defined as a short barreled rifle, and regulated as strictly as a machine gun. The California AWB, for example, banned pistols like the Walther GSP as "assault weapons" , even though they are almost unheard of outside of Olympic and ISSF competitions, because the magazine well isn't inside the grip.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117269932

[holdencaufield]

76. You might want to check out ...

... the Mondragón rifle

First used in the field in 1887 -- designed and built in Mexico, fully automatic, in rifle (7X57mm Mauser) calibre, selectable fire, available with 100 round drum magazine and by every definition, an assault rifle.

[friendly_iconoclast]

6. Show us anyone supporting "no control at all", aside from the 'sovereign citizen' nutters.

As for the body of your post...

My guess:
If you polled the rank and file of NRA members, you might find a surprising level of support for the notion that owning an assault rifle with a 100-round drum magazine is not a Constitutional right.
There are responsible - and sensible - gun owners. We should be talking with them.

...the kindest thing I can say would be to repeat the old maxim "It isn't what you don't know, it's what you think you know that isn't so."
What makes you think that NRA members aren't fine and dandy with the NRA as it is? For that matter, are you aware that only 5% of US gun owners are NRA members?

[Vox Moi]

15. Humm ...

The 2012 Republican Party platform supports 'no control' over magazine capacity.
The AR-15 semi-automatic rifle is commonly descried in gun catalogs as an 'Assault rifle' I think you are splitting hairs over rate of fire, with even with a semi-automatic is considerable: 45-60 rounds per minute.
Aside from the fact that technically, an assault rifle is a selectable fire weapon, what is your point?

WRT the NRA: what matter if only 1% of gun owners were in the NRA? Support for gun control by members of the NRA is welcome, highly effective politically and there is lots of evidence of such support.
http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/07/24/577091/nra-members-agree-regulating-guns-makes-sense/

[friendly_iconoclast]

18. It doesn't make spree killings any less deadly if the crazies need to reload.

Virginia Tech would be the most obvious example. Magazine capacity limits are security theater to reassure the gullible.

'Gun control' and 'the gun control I want' are not necessarily the same things. I've a proposal for you:

If you feel that there's a significant number of NRA members that are dissatisfied with their current policies, why don't you try to recruit them?

Start a blog, start a FB page- but do something, and then let us know how it's working...

[Vox Moi]

20. Thanks for the suggestion, Friendly_Iconoclast ...

... but this forum will do nicely. I think that DU is a very valuable web site - and that includes your posts - so I think I'll stick around.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

26. Love your sig line...

...welcome

[gejohnston]

19. a lever action can fire the same rate

Aside from the fact that technically, an assault rifle is a selectable fire weapon, what is your point?

that means it is a machine gun under federal law.

[gejohnston]

22. the poll mostly supports the status quo

however the "terror watch list" I'm not surprised mostly because it was created by Bush and contained names like Ted Kennedy.

"Members of Congress, nuns, war heroes and other 'suspicious characters,' with names like Robert Johnson and Gary Smith, have become trapped in the Kafkaesque clutches of this list, with little hope of escape," said Caroline Fredrickson, director of the ACLU Washington Legislative Office. "Congress needs to fix it, the Terrorist Screening Center needs to fix it, or the next president needs to fix it, but it has to be done soon."

Fredrickson and Barry Steinhardt, director of the ACLU's Technology and Liberty Program, spoke today along with two victims of the watch list: Jim Robinson, former assistant attorney general for the Criminal Division who flies frequently and is often delayed for hours despite possessing a governmental security clearance and Akif Rahman, an American citizen who has been detained and interrogated extensively at the U.S.-Canada border when traveling for business.

That is why progressives were against the list before they were for it.
http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/terrorist-watch-list-hits-one-million-names
If the watch list is reformed following the suggestions by the ACLU, I would be more open to the idea.

[virginia mountainman]

2. Another thing I forgot...

Gun Control advocates decided that since they was not winning legislatively, that they would SUE gun makers into oblivian... after a few lawsuits, gun rights advocates demanded and GOT, new laws passed protecting gun manufactures from such frivolous lawsuits....

Once again... They would have been better off to not have done ANYTHING....

Everything they do, backfires...........................

[rfranklin]

5. Yes, the NRA has been very successful in their propaganda...

but I find it very interesting that the greatest support for "gun rights" over "gun control" is amongst white men. The polls indicate that there is much more support for gun control among blacks and hispanics.

Could it be the NRA's insistence that the scary black President is plotting to take away everyone's guns?

[friendly_iconoclast]

7. The NRA has only 4 million members, about 5% of total gun owners.

If "blacks and hispanics" want gun control so badly, then why are they not voting accordingly?

Admittedly math class was a while ago , but it would appear ca. 66 million > 4 million...

[rfranklin]

11. Hard to vote on it since no one is running on that issue...

The NRA has spouted that gun confiscation nonsense election after election to promote right wingers. It is effective in supporting right wingers despite the fact that there is no significant gun control movement and hasn't been for years.

[friendly_iconoclast]

13. "...there is no significant gun control movement and hasn't been for years." Why not?

Also, have you not considered that the sets "non-right wing voters" and "gun owners" do, in fact, intersect?

For example:

http://democratsforgunownership.org/

http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/

http://www.dpo.org/communities/gun-owners

http://my.democrats.org/page/community/group/DemocraticGunOwnersCaucusofMissouri

[rfranklin]

33. How many liberals believe that "Obama is gonna take your guns?"

Why do you insist on conflating sane people with those who believe such tripe?

[rrneck]

24. Why isn't anyone running on thst issue? nt

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

28. I find it interesting that...

..."propaganda" has won lawsuits and gotten new laws passed.

[rfranklin]

32. "Obama is gonna take your guns" has won lawsuits?...

You are posting without thinking.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

45. read the shirt :)

[rfranklin]

49. I am left without a retort to your masterful reasoning and logic...

I bow down before your intellect.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

50. Well thanks

have a nice day.

[virginia mountainman]

8. Hmm odd, Al Sharpton radio show had an interesting bit about this....

Al Sharpton: My Listeners Overwhelmingly Support Supreme Court's Gun Rights Ruling!

[rfranklin]

10. That's Al Sharpton...Pew Research tells a different story...

Al has been known to bloviate.

[DonP]

54. Wow! Who knew? Al Sharpton's auience is mostly rural white men

Funny how gun control fans pick and choose what statements they want to accept and treat as gospel.

Are you suggesting that Al lied about the results?

Or that his audience is lying to him?

No wonder you gun control fans are losing it at every turn.

All you seem to do is whine online and cheer yourselves in Meta when you get a pro gun post hidden, as if that matters in the real world.

Please keep up the great work you and your friends are not doing.

[rfranklin]

78. Now you are just making stuff up...

Al Sharpton is not a polling firm. His observation is anecdotal.

The Pew Research clearly shows that blacks are more likely to favor gun control


http://pewresearch.org/databank/dailynumber/?NumberID=1174

Figures provided by Michael Dimock, Pew’s associate research director, show that the biggest shifts toward opposition to gun control have come among the same blue-collar whites who have displayed the greatest alienation to Obama across the board. From 2000 to 2008, the share of noncollege white men who prioritized gun rights over gun control soared from 55 percent to 73 percent; noncollege white women moved comparably, shifting from 32 percent emphasizing gun rights to 52 percent.
http://www.nationaljournal.com/politics/the-truth-about-gun-politics-many-americans-support-restrictions-20120720

[DonP]

79. Ah, that explains the remarkable success of gun control over the last decade

Wow! The Pew study must provide all the rationale for the success people like you have had for over a decade, getting better gun control laws passed, right?

That's the real issue, why do gun control people all seem to sit around with their thumbs in their "ear" and all they ever do is whine online about how evil the NRA is and how scary guns in private hands are. Well, that and lose elections and court decisions.

But maybe you the one exception down here, a gun control supporter that actually donates to Brady or another gun control group?

You seem to have strongly held opinions on gun control that you are more than willing to share with the class when it suits you.

Please, share some of your real world activities with us to prove you are serious about your beliefs and actually put your money where your mouth is?

[gejohnston]

9. compare rural white men with

urban white men
then compare rural people of color with urban people of color.

The rural Hispanic in Arizona, or the rural black in South Carolina, has as many guns as his white neighbor.

[rfranklin]

12. Most people in America live in cities

by a margin of four to one.

[gejohnston]

14. and a higher percentage of blacks and Hispanics

live in cities than whites. See where I'm going with this?

[rfranklin]

35. No, please explain...

I am not good at mindreading.

[gejohnston]

36. you are interpreting it as a race difference

which it looks like on the surface, but I'm saying it is actually a rural/urban difference.

[Eleanors38]

39. Ownership profile was established before folks knew...

Obama was not a brand of peanut butter. Now, the fastest growing demographics are women & self identified Democrats.

[deathrind]

29. Guns

Unfortunately they will never go away. Too many people need the false sense of security they provide. So until we as a society wake up and realize that the notion of needing a gun to protect myself from another gun provides no benefit to the greater good we will continue to live in a world where a person must be cognizant of where the exits are when in a public or personal space and hope for that lifesaving jam of the 100rd drum should the sight be trained on us in order to not become a statistic in the next mass shooting.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

48. As someone who teaches firearms on the weekend...you are clearly missing the point

I teach mostly to GLBTs and women. Traditionally those ares fertile demographics for anti gunners. Not so much anymore.

Good people arm themselves out of fear of violence against them, their families, or loved ones. Solve the violence problem, and people believing they need guns for self defense will evaporate as well.

[jody]

31. RKBA opponents just can't convince We the People that self-defense should be left up to 911 and LEO.

Most people know someone who was a victim of violent crime and vowed if they were attacked they would defend themselves with every available arm.

As abhorrent as all murders and mass murders are, the simple fact remains that in the U.S., government is not obligated to protect a law-abiding citizen.

Handguns are the most effective/efficient tool for self defense. They are the tool of choice for self-defense by 840,000 sworn law enforcement officers. Their use is a privilege granted by government, not a natural, inherent, inalienable/unalienable right possessed by law-abiding citizens as sovereign entities before they accepted the social contracts we honor as state constitutions and the Constitution.

[Kolesar]

37. "pout-rage" after every high profile shooting

You're sick

[Eleanors38]

40. Pout rage is almost always a prohibitionist response

Where the desire to condemn a large segment of the population outweighs any real compassion. That I find diseased.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

44. ~

At Sat Sep 29, 2012, 05:15 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

"pout-rage" after every high profile shooting
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=75605

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Direct insult of another DU member.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Sep 29, 2012, 05:20 PM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: To suggest the having feelings after people are shot to death is "poutrage" is indeed "sick".
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Kolesar]

80. I'll post about my teenager neighbor who received a wheel chair from charity

...After a gun owner shot up the cafeteria and put a bullet into his spine.
He graduates this year!

[Clames]

46. ^^^ Pout-rage.

There it is...

[4th law of robotics]

47. Some people do seem to get a sick enjoyment out of mass murders

because it gives them a chance to push their agenda.

For some reason they lose their voice when a gun is used in legitimate self defense.

Yeah, it's pretty sick.

[virginia mountainman]

64. Nope, my doc says I am fine..... But thank you for your concern.....nt

[Eleanors38]

41. Mountainman has this nailed perfectly.nt

[4th law of robotics]

42. They do seem to be their own worst enemies

a more conspiracy minded person might assume they're being funded by the gun industry to drum up sales . . .

/maybe next time their ACME rocket boots will help them catch that damned roadrunner.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

51. Can you provide

the statistics on how many gun owners are killed by guns vs. non gun owners? I'm simply curious...I don't care how many guns you own...

[Hissyspit]

52. Stopped reading at "pout-rage."

[Loudly]

55. Two words: Political Courage.

Echoing two words of historical significance: Racial equality. Very unpopular concept at one time. Now generally accepted as the correct course.

[virginia mountainman]

59. Yep Shares, Gun Control was very popular once apon a time...

It took Political Courage over come that.

[beevul]

77. And in spite of "racial equality"...

Things like "mulford" happened.


What an inconvenient fact for shares.

[DanTex]

56. The right wing has been making progress on several fronts recently (guns, abortion,

tax policy, etc.). And it is unfortunate that 30,000 Americans have to die every year to satisfy the paranoia of a few gun-obsessed right-wingers.

On the other hand, many of the liberal areas of the country (eg. California) have somewhat reasonable gun laws. And, of course, most of the rest of the civilized world has relatively tight gun laws. And, thanks to the example that the US is setting as to what happens without adequate gun control, it's unlikely that any kind of "gun rights" movement will gain any traction elsewhere.

I guess it's just a question of how long we are going to continue to shed needless blood. Health-care reform is a similar issue, where the US was the only first-world nation without any kind of universal coverage. It took a long time to change that, the right-wing fought furiously and successfully for many years. And Obamacare isn't perfect, but it's a huge step forward, and it shows that progress is possible.

With guns, the question is how long we want to tolerate a homicide rate that is some 5X greater than that of other high-income nations? Yes, the gun lobby is powerful, and the groups that suffer the most from gun violence are much less powerful. On the other hand, demographically, things are shifting in favor of progressives -- gun extremists tend to be old conservative rural white males, so as the nation becomes more diverse, more urban, and (hopefully) more educated, the gun obsession ought to subside a bit.

[gejohnston]

57. aside from over generalizing and

insulting half the country but, California is not that liberal. It has liberal pockets, and very right wing pockets (I have been to places in California that makes Mississippi look progressive) just like at Issa, or Jan Brewer before she moved to Arizona.

I suggest you actually travel the US and actually meet these people. At the very least, travel outside of your suburb.

[virginia mountainman]

58. So, your calling a majority of DU users right wingers now???

[DanTex]

60. Just the crazies. Most gun owners aren't NRA-style extremists like you.

I like your scientifically validated DU poll though. Like I said, a little more education would work wonders in terms of forwarding the progressive agenda.

[gejohnston]

61. you can start with yourself

and actually get to know people outside of your comfort zone.

[DanTex]

62. Oh, I know plenty of right-wingers and gun nuts. There's lots in Texas...

[gejohnston]

65. funny,

I know a lot of gun nuts, but not so much right wingers in Wyoming. Conservatives, but not right wingers. Most of the gun control advocates I come across, are clueless and not that well educated or traveled. Gun regulations should be written by people who know about guns, just like airplane regulations are written by people who know about airplanes.

[virginia mountainman]

63. Like me?? clarify....

Progressives?? Like.....

Eleanor Roosevelt?






Eleanor's CCW permit....

[DanTex]

66. Yes, people, like you, who parrot NRA talking points,

and take an absolutist stance towards the second amendment that ignores the practical realities of gun violence in modern societies. These people are almost exclusively right-wingers (Ted Nugent, Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Joe the Plumber, Joe Walsh, pretty much every other right-wing nutcase you can think of, etc.).

And, not coincidentally, these are the same kind of people who think internet polls are precise gauges of popular opinion, and who don't know the difference between "you're" and "your", and so on.

[virginia mountainman]

67. Where do I state that I have an absolutist stance??

Please show me....

[DanTex]

68. The OP is full of NRA-style looniness. Are you seriously trying to pretend to be a "moderate"?

[gejohnston]

69. for example?

I don't see anything about repealing NFA, which the not even the NRA thinks is a good idea, but certainly more moderate than yours.

[DanTex]

70. If by "moderate" you mean in line with Ted Nugent and Sarah Palin, sure.

I think your views about what is "moderate" are being skewed by living in Wyoming, the most conservative state in America. Most Americans favor licensing and registration of handguns, for example. And if you look beyond the US (I know, right-wingers hate doing that), then even an outright handgun ban could be considered moderate.

[gejohnston]

71. Actually, Wyoming isn't that conservative

unless you are using the term conserve as in "slow change" it is more accurate to say it is more "live and let live" but became more Republican mostly because it was written off by Dems in the late 1970s while the GOP poured tons of money and propaganda, when it sent a senator from each party each election. While it votes overwhelmingly Republican (with exceptions in the 1930s and 1964) in national elections, governor alternates. Since you don't have the slightest clue how the place operates, I suggest you actually educate yourself beyond looking at what color it is on a map. In terms of gender equality, race relations, education funding, the place is light years ahead of California and Texas. Even in the 1960s, Cheyenne made LA and San Francisco look like Mississippi in terms of race relations. Who in California had an African American police chief in 1966? Cheyenne hired a police captain from Newark, who remained police chief until he retired in 1980. How many African Americans are there in the Wyoming prison system (OK the state has a low AA population to begin with)? Other than the warden, maybe none. In Wyoming 100 percent of the prison wardens are people of color, African American to be exact, can Texas or California come close to that number?
Al Simpson's dad could not have been elected governor in Texas because of his opposition to the death penalty. But then, Rick Perry could not get elected in Wyoming because he is too extreme and a religious nut.

BTW, Wyoming's last execution was almost 20 years ago.

BTW, Beck doesn't actually believe any of the shit he says, and doesn't give a shit about politics. It's just show business to him.

One more thing, in the Wyoming Dem primary, Wyoming Dems voted overwhelmingly for Obama.

[virginia mountainman]

72. Ok...

Evidently you have no idea what the NRA says then... And please DISPROVE the point I MADE in my OP.. Except for the part where I said I saw it in an article mentioned somewhere,

Leave the NRA strawman down....Nothing in my OP came from them.... The idea for my OP came from an article I read in Salon magazine last week, no NRA love their..

Get with mainstream America on this issue.

[gejohnston]

73. heat seeking bullets

[virginia mountainman]

74. Now that is some poutrage! I tell you what!

[holdencaufield]

75. Ready-to-eat venison steaks ...

... in the field.

What a wonderful, modern age in which we live.

[Eleanors38]

81. Duh expert has spoken...

Vast numbers of airplanes cooked in mid-air.nt