Gun Control: A Movement Without Followers

[ileus]

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/gun-control-a-movement-without-followers-01052012.html

The inaction, especially President Barack Obama’s passivity on the topic, demonstrates that gun control has expired as a national political issue. If Democrats can’t sell stiffer restrictions after a midday attack on a congresswoman, when can they?

[X_Digger]

1. Now, if we can get the national party to catch up..

Many state party platforms have removed gun control crap in recent years.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

20. Exhibite A

...your post is a fine example of the support gun control advocates have in our party.

[X_Digger]

25. You mean.. the lack of them? They're a withering breed. n/t

[friendly_iconoclast]

2. BTW, that magazine is owned by Michael Bloomberg.

Either he's quietly given up on MAIG or some editor will be seeking new employment soon.
I liked this bit:

...Notably, Giffords hasn’t spoken out in favor of tougher gun control. Before she was shot, the Second Amendment proponent proudly said she owned a Glock 19, the same model that nearly killed her. (A press aide to the congresswoman did not respond to a request for comment.) As voters’ tolerance for firearm ownership has grown in recent years, gun control activists have seemed increasingly irrelevant. The Brady group announced that the front people for its Jan. 8 candle-lighting commemoration of the Tucson shooting would include cable talk show host Reverend Al Sharpton and comedian Lewis Black.

[LAGC]

3. I predict more gun-owners will vote for Obama this time around.

Especially if anti-gun Mittens is the likely alternative.

Edit to add: I can't wait to see the linguistic gymnastics the NRA attempts if Romney is indeed the candidate. It will be epic.

[friendly_iconoclast]

5. Mittens will no doubt have a glib explanation for signing the AWB in Massachusetts.

[X_Digger]

7. And it'll fall flat.

In local gun forums, I've seen much gnashing of teeth by folks who appear to be republican voters anticipating a Romney nomination.

I think more than one head will pop and spew smoke before it's over.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

64. IIRC...

...that is a Norman.

[AtheistCrusader]

48. Same explanation he uses for MA's health care law.

He seems to have gotten away with it, with his base.

[spin]

8. But Mittens is a life time hunter...

Probably nothing alienates real gun owners and shooters more than politicians who pander by claiming to be hunters.

I would be more inclined to vote for a politician who simply admitted that he had never owned a firearm and rarely if ever shot one as long as I felt he would not try to take away my 2nd Amendment rights to own and use firearms for legitimate purposes.

That's one reason why I decided to vote for Obama. I listened carefully to his comments on gun control while he was campaigning and I felt that he was not on a mission to pass draconian guns laws. I took into account the fact that he was a politician from Illinois and would have never made it past being elected a dog catcher if he had been pro-gun.

So far he has not disappointed me by pushing for new restrictive gun legislation.

[ellisonz]

10. We could use Mitt in GD...

Lotta varmint roaming around.

Republican hatred of Obama will likely override any concerns about mittens.

I'm sure Obama would sign the AWB if it passed. Obama just knows better than to talk about gun control in this political environment. It's like the healthcare reform debate...stick your head above the trench too far and your likely to have it knocked off.

Responsible gun control reform is not draconian. I hate that word because so few even really understand what it meant in context. As the first law-giver of Athens, Draco only codified the legal customs of the time, which generally speaking were in fact reduction to slavery or death, and in fact, was progressive in that it provided for courts (a first in Ancient Greece). Draco distinguished between murder and involuntary manslaughter, and furthermore left the previous Attic custom of the carrying out of murder verdicts up to the family of the aggrieved. It is a poisonous and non-descriptive term in the modern context. Perhaps we are only more progressive in current practice in that we empower the state to carry out death sentences rather than the family of the aggrieved.

Obama is a very reasonable man; he is from Hawaii, he has Hawaiian values, and his position demands that he must be pono:

In the Hawaiian thought, being pono means being in perfect alignment and balance with all things in life. It means one has the perfect relationship with the creative energy of the universe, however you might describe that energy: God, Goddess, prana, mana, chi - whatever that appellation is for you. Your every thought word and deed are in complete harmony with that divine energy. Pono means you are in complete harmony and alignment with your custodial relationship with the earth. That you operate on the earthly plane as one who is the caretaker of the land during your lifetime. That your stewardship of the land leaves it as good or better than you found it so that succeeding generations can enjoy the resources that were gifted to you in your lifetime and during your stewardship.

Pono means that you have a proper respectful relationship with your parents, with your spouse or significant other, with your children, with your extended family members and with your co-workers. Pono means that your relationships with others are just and fair and untinged by anger, jealousy, resentment or any negative energy. You are in harmony and in integrity. Discord is resolved with ho'oponopono - the setting right of bad feelings. Ho'oponopono must be entered into with a sincere desire by all parties to resolve differences - not an opportunity for "right fighting". A mutually respected arbitrator manages the process of making right so that all parties feel the matter is resolved and no longer exerts any negative energy on the parties involved. When the process is complete, the parties are pono with one another again. Harmony is restored.

In truth, every action in life is either pono ... or not. And humankind's assignment is to be pono in all things. An ali'i, or chief, who was not pono would not be tolerated for very long. The ali'i's job was to provide the best possible life for his people. If he consistently failed in his duty to do so, the people would find a way to dispense with him. Individuals who choose to be other than pono would find themselves outcast from the society as a whole.

http://www.realhula.com/kumuWis-PONO.html

[friendly_iconoclast]

29. I agree- I thought his signing of this bill was righteous indeed!

http://www.ammoland.com/2011/11/19/little-noticed-provision-kills-atf-shotgun-ban-plans/

Manasquan, NJ --(Ammoland.com)- Saiga 12’s, Benelli M4’s and virtually any other tactical/military shotgun can no longer be banned from import by the ATF.

A little noticed provision tucked into a large appropriations bill obviously flew under the radar of the “Brady Bunch” and the “Illegal Mayors.”

The new law effectively kills ATF’s plan to stop tactical/military shotgun imports by way of abusing the “sporting purpose” requirement and their agency rulemaking powers.

The “Fiscal Year 2012 Agriculture, Commerce/Justice/Science (CJS) and Transportation/Housing/Urban Development (THUD) Appropriations bills”, also known as the “Mini-Bus”, was passed by Congress, and signed into law by President Obama on November 18, 2011.

The new law reads as follows:

SEC. 541. None of the funds made available by this Act may be used to pay the salaries or expenses of personnel to deny, or fail to act on, an application for the importation of any model of shotgun if–

(1) all other requirements of law with respect to the proposed importation are met; and
(2) no application for the importation of such model of shotgun, in the same configuration, had been denied by the Attorney General prior to January 1, 2011, on the basis that the shotgun was not particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes....

I guess he didn't want to find himself outcast come November...

[ellisonz]

30. It's a rider.

Besides, our gun laws are fucked anyways, or do you not realize that...

Sad, that I can post good content all you get is

[friendly_iconoclast]

38. Strange how all those gun-control riders the President has signed lately...

...tend towards fewer restrictions. He may not be a weather man, but he knows which way the wind is blowing...

[spin]

39. Your definition of reasonable gun laws probably differs from mine...

I consider the existing gun laws in Florida as fair and reasonable.

I define draconian laws as unusually harsh.

Draconian Laws

A code of laws prepared by Draco, the celebrated lawgiver of Athens, that, by modern standards, are considered exceedingly severe. The term draconian has come to be used to refer to any unusually harsh law.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Draconian+Laws

To me some laws that restrict the ownership of firearms by honest people are draconian. These include but are not limited to:

1) Laws that "ban" firearms based on appearance not function. The expired Assault Weapons Ban and the similar laws that still exist in some states are examples.

2) Laws that requrie registration of firearms. I feel such laws are draconian in that registration often leads to confiscation which is definitely draconian and registration can also be used as a barrier to firearm ownership because of the expense and the time involved to register firearms. In Florida where I live the registration of firearms in prohibited.

790.335?Prohibition of registration of firearms; electronic records.—
(1)?LEGISLATIVE FINDINGS AND INTENT.—
(a)?The Legislature finds and declares that:
1.?The right of individuals to keep and bear arms is guaranteed under both the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and s. 8, Art. I of the State Constitution.
2.?A list, record, or registry of legally owned firearms or law-abiding firearm owners is not a law enforcement tool and can become an instrument for profiling, harassing, or abusing law-abiding citizens based on their choice to own a firearm and exercise their Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed under the United States Constitution. Further, such a list, record, or registry has the potential to fall into the wrong hands and become a shopping list for thieves.
3.?A list, record, or registry of legally owned firearms or law-abiding firearm owners is not a tool for fighting terrorism, but rather is an instrument that can be used as a means to profile innocent citizens and to harass and abuse American citizens based solely on their choice to own firearms and exercise their Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed under the United States Constitution.
4.?Law-abiding firearm owners whose names have been illegally recorded in a list, record, or registry are entitled to redress.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/790.335

3) Potential laws such as requiring firearms to micro stamp ammo. I consider such schemes as draconian as there are technical problems with the processes and considerable expense added to the cost of firearms. Such laws would do little or nothing to reduce crime, therefore they qualify as being unusually harsh.

4) Gun laws that are similar to those in New York City are draconian. Requiring a license to own a firearm is often used by officials to limit handguns to the more wealthy and well connected members of society. Also any requirement to obtain the approval of a government bureaucrat or police officer before buying a firearm introduces the possibility of racism or discrimination.

I don't consider all gun laws to be draconian. As i mentioned I believe the current gun laws in Florida are reasonable. For example, Florida has "shall issue" concealed carry. To me requiring a person to obtain a reasonably priced license along with a background check and proof of training prior to being allowed to carry a concealed firearm in public is reasonable.

I found your information about Obama being pono fascinating. Most religions incorporate some of the concepts but the idea of an mutually respected arbitrator to resolve conflict between parties is fairly unique. Perhaps we need such an arbitrator to make things right between the Republicans and the Democrats in Congress. It would be nice if Obama would take on this mission. He has mentioned such an approach in the past.

Obama promises more outreach to GOP
November 30, 2010|From Ed Henry, CNN

President Barack Obama told GOP leaders behind closed doors Tuesday that he had failed to reach across party lines enough during his first two years in office, a senior administration official told CNN.

He promised to do a better job of bipartisan outreach in the days ahead, the official added.

"The president said he had to do better, and the president is ready to do his part," the official said.

The list of attendees at Obama's long-awaited post-election meeting with the newly empowered congressional Republicans included Vice President Joe Biden, Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, House Minority Leader John Boehner, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnel
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-11-30/politics/obama.gop.bipartisan_1_gop-leaders-outreach-republicans?_s=PM OLITICS

Unfortunately it looks like the arbitrator has to have the mutual respect of the parties. It's unlikely that in an election year, the Republicans will show any respect towards Obama. Perhaps Obama will have more success after he gets reelected.

[AtheistCrusader]

49. Pono is non-existent.

Just like Obama's enthusiasm for gun control.

Working as intended.

[iverglas]

4. I always find this amusing

Giffords, Obama, and other Democrats can read polls showing diminished support for gun control. In late October, Gallup reported that a record-low 26 percent of Americans favor a ban on civilian possession of handguns, down from 60 percent when Gallup first asked the question in 1959. By a 60-35 margin, Gallup said, “Americans’ preference regarding gun laws is generally that the government enforce existing laws more strictly and not pass new laws.”

The hoohah that ensues when a public opinion survey is reported here in which people support more stringent gun control -- do they know what the laws are now???? --- well, where is it when somebody reports something like that?

How many of Gallup's survey respondents could name an existing law they wanted enforced more strictly, and how many of them could give a single example of what that would mean?

[gejohnston]

6. variation of the same theme

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=5089

[iverglas]

11. yes, gej .........

Yours was an example of the hoohah to which I referred.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

43. funny about the word hoohah

I do not think it means what you think it means.

[iverglas]

45. funny about words

Some people don't know what they mean at all. FreeDictionary does, in this case:


hoo-ha or hoo-hah (hhä)
n. Slang
1. A fuss; a disturbance: "the subject of this last hoo-hah" (William Safire).
2. A chortle or laugh: got a good hoo-ha out of that story.
[Perhaps from Yiddish hu-ha, to-do, uproar, exclamation.]


synonyms

Noun 1. hoo-hah -

a disorderly outburst or tumult; "they were amazed by the furious disturbance they had caused"

commotion, hoo-ha, hurly burly, kerfuffle, to-do, disruption, disturbance, flutter

disorder - a disturbance of the peace or of public order

turmoil, upheaval, convulsion - a violent disturbance; "the convulsions of the stock market"

earthquake - a disturbance that is extremely disruptive; "selling the company caused an earthquake among the employees"

incident - a public disturbance; "the police investigated an incident at the bus station"

stir, splash - a prominent or sensational but short-lived news event; "he made a great splash and then disappeared"

tempest, storm - a violent commotion or disturbance; "the storms that had characterized their relationship had died away"; "it was only a tempest in a teapot"

storm center, storm centre - a center of trouble or disturbance

garboil, tumult, tumultuousness, uproar - a state of commotion and noise and confusion



"Junk" also still means garbage, trash, useless stuff, etc., I'm pretty sure.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

46. gosh, I still don't see the slang definition for what hoohah

refers to in these parts. Did not realize how colloquial the meaning is.

it can't be though because this one time in the Lounge ( as in one time at bandcamp but, I digress )

someone started a thread about coleslaw on the hoohah

hilarity ensued --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x9035513

[SteveW]

57. Coleslaw on the hoohah? An appetizer, I believe...

Though I favor sprouts.

[hack89]

51. I guess I read the Onion too much.

Renowned Hoo-Ha Doctor Wins Nobel Prize For Medical Advancements Down There

http://www.theonion.com/articles/renowned-hooha-doctor-wins-nobel-prize-for-medical,2692/

[ellisonz]

9. The questions are poorly constructed and like most public opinion polling...

...don't grasp the issue very well. I'd also suggest they likely miss large segments of the population who are more pro-gun control. What you're seeing in these numbers are really mainstream Americans, who by that very nature, are accessible to polling.

Gun control has a clear and long running mandate that a slight decline in polling don't negate.

It will be an election issue whether we like it or not...make no mistake, the NRA is going to attack Obama even if the GOP nominee is Romney.

[petronius]

12. What large segments do you have in mind, specifically?

[ellisonz]

16. Minority groups, those off the grid...

...if election polling misses some voting groups, why would such polling not miss such sentiments? I don't take issue polling like this that seriously in comparison to election polling which tends to be much more accurate.

[petronius]

22. And why do you assume that opinion polls systematically miss pro-gun control segments

of the population, or that these segments are not correctly accounted for?

[ellisonz]

23. Census undercount.

I'm guessing the pollsters take their ratios from the census and there is pretty widespread agreement that the census under-counts minority communities that tend to suffer reasonably high rates of gun violence.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/census/2011-04-06-censusundercount06_ST_N.htm

I'm not talking a huge shift, but the decline isn't as large as you probably think, and its probably coming from well-to-do White people who see the crime rate falling and feel safer and thus less inclined to gun control.

[AtheistCrusader]

50. Funny how the losers never respect the quality of a given poll.

Very funny.

[gejohnston]

26. Maybe it is just where I grew up

Most ranchers and farmers where I grew up is off the grid. Come to think of it, if you live a few miles from town you are off the grid. They all have lots of guns.

[ellisonz]

31. Only about 20% of the country is rural.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/planning/census_issues/metropolitan_planning/cps2k.cfm

[friendly_iconoclast]

13. "Gun control has a clear and long running mandate..."

So that's why it has been moving from strength to strength in recent years...

[X_Digger]

14. What he fails to realize..

Is that some of us were alive and politically active before his so-called 'long running mandate' began.

[ellisonz]

17. Gun crime control has had a mandate since 1934.

You're telling me people have just decided they don't need government to regulate firearms?

[X_Digger]

24. Lol, try 1968.

That's when our party picked up this albatross and hung it around their collective necks.

The National Firearms Act was authored by a republican, Frederick Hale, of New York.

The 1938 Federal Firearms Act was sponsored by Henry Cabot Lodge, Jr., of MA.

[ellisonz]

28. So gun control historically is bipartisan?

Thank you for making my point.

[X_Digger]

34. Three laws, 30 year apart? lol

That was a stretch, even for you.

No, you can trace our 'mandate' back to one man for the most part.

Senator Thomas Dodd (Christopher's father.) He was the first one to try to whip up the moral panic, with his introduction of the 1968 GCA (among many attempts, including outright bans on handguns).

Of course this is also the same Senator Dodd who happened to keep a loaded handgun in his pocket that one day fell out onto the senate floor, leading to his censure.

Even back then, there was a whiff of the 'these laws are for thee, not me' hypocrisy.

[gejohnston]

27. Calvin Coolidge

signed the Mailing of Firearms Act (AKA the Miller Act named after Rep. Miller (R-WA) who authored it), the first federal gun control law, in February 1927.
That is why long guns can be shipped through USPS, but handguns can only be shipped via private companies like UPS or FedEx.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

44. please note that the word "crime" has somehow gotten deleted throughout the years

huge difference in these two phrases:

Gun Control

and

Gun Crime Control

[SteveW]

54. The Zombies were around before the Democrats put it in our Platform (1968)...

The '34 stuff was put in by GOPers; hell of an example to follow.

[GreenStormCloud]

33. If gun control is so popular, why does over 50% of the House have an NRA rating of "A"?

And almost half of the Senate is "A" rated. Politicians who are pro-RKBA are winning, and have been since 1994. Your side is losing at the election polls and that is the only poll that counts.

[ellisonz]

35. REPUBLICANS!!! n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

41. The people are voting for them. N/T

[DonP]

42. Now lets see if they can complete the formula?

Lots of Republicans in the House ...

That support the 2nd amendment ...

Because people vote for them...

So the answer is ...

Keep demanding more gun control?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

15. Non Sense

There are more than enough supporters of gun control advocates to abate the gun industry in this country.

As for Obama, he was NEVER a strong supporter of gun control despite the paranoia of some.

Information and technology have done far more to reduce crime and save lives while guns have some just the opposite.

[hack89]

18. So where are they? Why have they been getting their asses handed to them for the last decade or so?

nt

[fightthegoodfightnow]

19. Have They?

Are you saying their are fewer restrictions on guns than 10the years ago?

You might want to tell the NRA.

[TupperHappy]

21. Fewer restrictions? Generally yes.

The AWB expired. The national Brady waiting period is not an instant check. Practically all states now have some form of CCW. And of course we have the Heller decision.

[hack89]

32. Besides District of Columbia v. Heller and McDonald v. Chicago ?

well, take a look at the explosion in the number of states that now permit concealed carry for one. And lets not forget the futile attempts to get the AWB reenacted.

There has been no major gun control legislation in 20 years.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

55. Uh - yeah there are

Have you been asleep or under a rock? There are definitely fewer restrictions than 10 years ago.

The fact that you're ignorant of the facts doesn't mean the rest of us are.

[virginia mountainman]

56. Yes he is.......

.....LOL......


Tell the NRA what?? Just how successful they have been??

[Paladin]

36. Hubristic Gun Militants. Gotta Love It.

Any political movement so overreaching and self-satisfied is inevitably setting itself up for a fall. Keep up the good work, DU Gun Enthusiasts.....

[friendly_iconoclast]

37. "Our biggest .org is outnumbered by theirs 80 to 1, but they'll get what's coming to them!"

Gun control shall rise again!

[DonP]

40. I've been promised a backlash dammit!

But since all gun control "supporters" seem to do is talk themselves into a semi frenzy and threaten more gun "common sense" control for the good of society, I guess I'll have to wait.

In the meantime, I just bought a new S&W Airweight today at an excellent price. I wonder what any of our control supporters did to put their money where their "attitude" is?

[ileus]

52. My best buddy bought a sig p250 in 45 yesterday.

really nice piece....


Those airweight smiths are really nice revolvers. I've been wanting a revolver, but something else (gunwise) always seems to get my attention.

In this case it happened to my buddy. He went in to buy a Ruger in 45 colt, but all they had that interested him was a redhawk in 357, so he got the sig with his "spare" change...LOL

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

53. As of now...

...the Census Bureau puts world population at 6,986,509,486 and US population at 312,819,779. The US is home to about 4.5% of the people in the world. There are approximately 600,000,000 firearms in private hands worldwide. More than a third of them are held in the US.

Firearms owned per 100,000 within the US: 67,770 (two guns for every three people)
Firearms owned per 100,000 elsewhere: 5,813 (one gun for every 17 people)


IMHO, there are some followers for the gun control crowd, just no real leaders. What kind of a leader would advocate less freedom for everyone?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

58. There is so much freedom....

....when you die from gun violence. NOT.

[ManiacJoe]

59. Dead is dead.

The tool used by the killer does not make any difference to the victim.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

61. However...

...if you die disarmed and defenseless the anti-gun crowd can use you as a statistic.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

60. re: "There is so much freedom."

Yes there is.


"...when you die from gun violence. NOT."
And it's so much harder to die when you're disarmed and defenseless.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

62. Seriously?

The notion that your chances are better with a gun than without one is a false promise. Just ask the families of all the armed cops killed last year.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

63. Are you thinking...

...we should disarm all the cops?

[X_Digger]

66. Do people dying in car accidents while wearing seatbelts invalidate their use?

Of course not.

That would be an illogical premise, just like yours.

[spin]

67. Much depends on your skill with your weapon and the situation...

but to say that your chances are not better in many situations is just a foolish statement.

Having a firearm is no guarantee that you will survive a violent attack but in many cases it has proved to be an effective deterrent. Often when a predator realizes that his victim is armed he wisely breaks off the attack.

A firearm can be a true life saver especially for a woman if she encounters a much larger and stronger assailant. In the movies a small female can easily defeat a much larger man with her fantastic skills in karate. In real life, it's rare to find a woman who can actually defeat a man who is considerably larger. My jujitsu instructor taught the women in his class to use the skills they learned to surprise the attacker and maybe hurt him just enough that they could escape his grasp and run. Unfortunately, not all woman have the opportunity to learn martial arts skills.

But even a male black belt can lose a fight with a street fighter. The street thug may only know a few techniques but they are often brutal and very effective and can totally surprise and overwhelm a martial artist who is used to fighting in a dojo.

My jujitsu instructor was a 9th degree black belt in judo and also held belts in karate and judo. He once told the class, "I may be a ninth degree red and white belt but the man with a .45 auto is a tenth degree."

You may disagree with the value of owning a firearm for self defense. But to say that they are ineffective as tools for self defense merely because some police officers were killed in the line of duty ignores the fact that many other police officers used them effectively to combat crime.

[ManiacJoe]

68. Seriously.

> The notion that your chances are better with a gun than without one is a
> false promise. Just ask the families of all the armed cops killed last year.

The notion is a very true one. However, just because your odds are better is no guaranty that you are going to win. You seem to not understand odds/statistics.

[Straw Man]

65. NOT.

There is so much freedom....

....when you die from gun violence. NOT.

Is there a hierarchy of violent death whereby some kinds are preferable to others?


















I didn't think so.