How to Break NRA’s Grip on Politics: Michael R. Bloomberg

[Kolesar]

Mayor Bloomberg's column specifically focuses on closing the gun show loophole.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-26/how-to-break-nra-s-grip-on-politics-michael-r-bloomberg.html
...
Nonlicensed sellers, however, are not required to perform federal background checks, and as much as 40 percent of gun sales slip through this loophole. Criminals and the deranged can buy guns simply by logging on to the Internet or visiting a gun show -- and they do, every day. Stopping them requires background checks for every gun sale, a change strongly supported by major law enforcement organizations, as well as gun owners and NRA members. But not the NRA’s leadership.

The NRA is a $200 million-plus-a-year lobbying juggernaut, with much of its funding coming from gun manufacturers and merchandising. More than anything, the NRA is a marketing organization, and its flagship product is fear. Gun sales jumped after Obama was elected president, based on the absurd -- and now demonstrably false -- fear that he would seek to ban guns.
...
Elected officials who profess to be tough on crime but who also oppose tougher measures to stop illegal guns can’t be in two places at once -- particularly when many law enforcement organizations support basic gun measures that simply don’t exist today. ... A pro-gun senator can point out the obvious: It’s impossible to support police officers and law enforcement agencies and also oppose giving them the tools they need to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people.

Some Americans view smarter, tougher gun measures as a hopeless crusade. But political environments change, especially when strong leaders build coalitions and carve new paths through seemingly settled territory. There are conservative, pro-gun rights members of Congress who understand that more can be done to keep guns away from dangerous people.

[Travis_0004]

1. Buying guns at a gunshow is not a loophole.

I don't know why everybody says that buying guns at a gun show is a loophole, it isn't. It just isn't a law passed by the federal government.

In my opinion, the federal government shouldn't pass a law banning the sale at a gun show. A sale between two individuals (of the same sate), is a state matter, not a federal matter. (10th amendment)

Also according to the FBI, .8% of offenders bought their guns at a gun show.

[Hoyt]

9. Whether you want to call it a "loophole" or not, it's still wrong and a way guns get to people that

shouldn't have them.

[eagle308us]

18. You do know

that the NICS, National Instant Criminal Background Check System, is only available to FFL dealers. This is where the FFL's get their yes/no on firearm sales.

Contact your local Congresssman to get the law changed if you don't like it.

[aikoaiko]

16. And Bloombergs 40% figure (guns acquired via gunshots) is wrong too

Cook and Ludwig found it to be under 4%.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=994651

Far more guns are exchanged between friends and families as gifts, inheritances and private sales.

Funny how we don't hear about the friends and family loophole.

Bloomberg is an asshat of the first order.

[pipoman]

2. Once again the (not so) good mayor

is beating the drum for enactment of illegal, unconstitutional federal legislation which he knows is impossible, acting as though the NRA is why individual to individual intrastate gun sales is legal without NICS..knowing full well that he is lying...

[Kolesar]

3. Complete sentences are nice...eom

[pipoman]

4. Can't defend your ridiculous OP, eh?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

5. Absurd. Ban gunshow sales and NRA membership will f'ing SKYROCKET.

Te gun banners don't get it, do they? THEY made the NRA powerful.
For decades, it was a simple marksmanship, education and training organization.

If you prohibit the private transaction, the NRA would probably grow membership by about 25%-50%
I fail to see how that breaks the NRA's grip on politics.

[safeinOhio]

6. Polls show that a majority of NRA members

Support requiring mandatory background checks on all handgun sales. Just the crazy members that voted for Nugen and Norquist for the leadership think different. If it can be shown that those guns cross state lines, it would pass constitutional requirements.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

7. Still doesn't change the fact that people would flock to the NRA.

If merely mentioning bans or electing a black guy (with a gun-control history) to the oval office causes the largest rush on guns/ammo in recent memory... ACTUALLY banning something will cause heads to explode. Constitutionality is not relevent.

[safeinOhio]

10. It would only make

Craszy baggers and extreme gun nuts heads explode.

Romney has more history of gun banning than Obama.

[xxenderwigginxx]

12. Considering that even polls

Last edited Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:01 PM - Edit history (1)

on DU show support for gun rights at almost 70%, I think your assumption is a little off.

[bongbong]

32. LOL

> DU show support for gun rights at 70%, I think your assumption is a little off.

Speaking of assumptions, I assume you know the NRA assigns people to flood websites with fake votes during gun polls.

[xxenderwigginxx]

33. well

[link:http://www.democraticunderground.com/117255387|

[bongbong]

34. Yes

Thanks for the evidence about the NRA flooding websites that have gun polls.

[Reasonable_Argument]

35. Do you have evidence for that claim? nt

[bongbong]

38. PROVE IT!

I asked NRA acolytes to prove a bunch of stuff they made claims about over the last few days, and was mostly ignored.

Since that's what gun-relgionists like to do, I'll do the same to them.

[Reasonable_Argument]

39. Two wrongs don't make a right friend nt

[bongbong]

40. LOL

> Two wrongs don't make a right friend

Where did I claim something was made "right"?

That's the way gun-relgionists like to roll (not providing evidence for their claims). I'm doing what they're doing. Flattering them in a way, which I would think gun-relgionists would like.

[Reasonable_Argument]

42. So

You're trolling?

[bongbong]

44. No

No

[friendly_iconoclast]

46. That claim is the "Bigfoot" of gun control. Many claim it, but can't seem to provide any evidence.

[rl6214]

50. You got any proof of this wild conspiracy theory of yours?

[bongbong]

54. gun-religion

Oh you gun-relgionists are sooooo funny.

I guess that flood of low-count pro-gun-relgion posters that started right after the Aurora massacre (and many of whom got tombstoned), was just a figment of my imagination.

[Reasonable_Argument]

59. Yep it's a grand conspiracy

Has nothing to do with the fact that we're sick of having our rights eroded and being demonized by people. I mean, I'm a pro gun liberal so I kinda expect it but that doesn't mean I have to take it quietly.

[bongbong]

60. Ho Ho Ho

Last edited Mon Jul 30, 2012, 06:42 PM - Edit history (1)

> we're sick of having our rights eroded and being demonized by people.

I'm sick of the way gun-relgionists whine endlessly about the 2nd Amendment, whining about how it's about keeping a "tyrannical" gov't in check, and then not saying a peep about the multi-year destruction to the 1st and 4th Amendment by repigs.

Guess those guns are a whole lot more important than all the rhetoric and Talking Points the gun-relgionists use to justify their Precious.

[rl6214]

67. Yeah, they were all sent here by the NRA

Tell me another one

[rl6214]

48. Holy shit, I thought conspiracy theories were not allowed on DU

[Reasonable_Argument]

49. An exception is apparently made in regards to gun rights nt

[Llewlladdwr]

66. They're allowed...

just supposed to be posted to the Creative Speculation group.

[pipoman]

13. If they want it

the only way they can get it..and should be a slam dunk easy way compared to Federal legislation..is to pass it at the state level, yet they never seem to do that. What is there 2 or 3 states which require this? No, if they really want this it is easy to get..they don't really want this because they have been taking donations for over a decade to "close the gun show loophole', at the federal level (to the complete exclusion of the state level) knowing full well they will never, ever, be able to close the "loophole" because of the Commerce Clause, leaving them to year after year beating the "close the loophole" drum to raise more money. It is a lie and a scam.

[melm00se]

15. The poll cited

in Bloomberg's article is one that appears to be one commissioned by Mayors Against Illegal Guns. Not exactly your more unbiased polls.

http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/poll-07-24-2012.pdf

[gejohnston]

22. most of the polls like that I have seen

that claims "Americans want stricter gun laws" actually say they support the status quo. Just look at the questions. The claims otherwise indicates either complete ignorance of current federal gun laws or are dishonest. Judging from comments I see here and other places, it is almost always the former.

[krispos42]

45. That's not unreasonable.

However, it would have to be done on a state by state level, as the federal government does not have jurisdiction in intra-state gun sales.

The Brady Campaign should concentrate on that issue, on a state-by-state basis. If they did that they might have a dozen or more states with that requirement by 2020. After that, "the dominoes fall" and we could probably get 30 or more states by 2030.


If they don't get distracted with broader, more arbitrary measures, then they should have success.

[xxenderwigginxx]

8. Gun show loophole?

*facepalm*
As far as internet sales: I've ordered a gun online before, it has to be shipped to a Federal Firearms License (FFL) dealer, and you must pass the same legal checks to pick it up.
You anti-gun advocates really should do some research; acting on emotional, inaccurate information will never further your cause.

[Hoyt]

11. More gun culture obfuscation.

[xxenderwigginxx]

14. More emotional epitaph with no facts to support your position.

[eagle308us]

19. So let me get it straight

You think that I can call a dealer on the phone and they will drop ship a weapon to my house without going to an FFL first??

[Hoyt]

23. No, I don't think that. I do think many in the gun culture would like that. I also think most in

gun culture need to think about society rather than their poor little pitiful gun plight.

I also think a lot in gun culture sell guns essentially in back alleys without caring whether the "buyer" is fit to own a gun.

[gejohnston]

26. Canadian gun owners enjoy that

having the gun dropped shipped to their house. Why not us?

[eagle308us]

27. I don't want that

and I would hope that all here wouldn't want direct sales from a manufacturer/dealer. Also would be against the law as written.

Do you think that the NICS needs to be opened up for non FFL sales? Do you even know what the NICS is and does?

[Hoyt]

30. I think one needs to go through FFL.

Last edited Mon Jul 30, 2012, 04:04 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't think anyone wanting to check on a neighbor should be able to do so under the guise of selling a gun. I assume NCIS merely produces a "yes, person meets requirements . . . . . ." or a "No." But, that tells you something about someone.

Therefore, I think using an FFL is best.

Of course, I also think there is too much gun "trafficking" going on in our society -- legal or illegal. Hopefully, someday guns -- particularly toting, assault/tactical type "collectors", those who use guns to intimidate -- will be viewed in the same way as smokers, polluters, greedy corporations, banksters, bigots, etc.

[rl6214]

53. You keep on dreaming

It would sure make your job a lot safer and easier wouldn't it? Not having to worry about one of your marks being armed and all.

[rl6214]

52. Every gun I have ever sold has gone thru an FFL

And with no job and this economy the way it is I've had to sell a few.

Shows you don't know shit as usual.

[ErikO]

56. Pics or it didn't happen. ;) n/t

[rl6214]

51. Obfuscation (or beclouding) is the hiding of intended meaning in communication, making communication

Obfuscation (or beclouding) is the hiding of intended meaning in communication, making communication confusing, wilfully ambiguous, and harder to interpret.[

xxenderwigginxx (50 posts)

8. Gun show loophole?
*facepalm*
As far as internet sales: I've ordered a gun online before, it has to be shipped to a Federal Firearms License (FFL) dealer, and you must pass the same legal checks to pick it up.
You anti-gun advocates really should do some research; acting on emotional, inaccurate information will never further your cause.


Please show where there was:

Hiding of intended meaning in communication

Making communication confusing
(maybe to you in stating the facts)

Willfully ambiguous

Harder to interpret
(again, maybe to you in stating facts)

[Hoyt]

55. Simple, RL, he puts "Gun show loophole" in Title, then responds to something entirely different.

There is a big gap in ensuring guns are sold to qualified buyers at gun shows. You guys don't like the term "loophole" for some reason. And, then, some pro-gunner comes on here and supposedly posts about gun shows, but diverts the discussion to internet sales.

Does that clear things up for you?

[sarisataka]

61. The OP included internet sale

Criminals and the deranged can buy guns simply by logging on to the Internet or visiting a gun show -- and they do

No diversion...

[Hoyt]

62. The guy I replied to said loophole.

[sarisataka]

63. The last word of the preceding sentence

was "loophole", implying gun shows are a loophole.

We can quibble with what is or is not a 'loophole' but the fact is private sales are prohibited by law from background checks. Many of us on the "gun side" would like that to change as well. It should be possible to set it up so private information, e.g. the buyers DL number or a partial SSN, is required to prevent abuses of the system.

[Hoyt]

64. Use an FFL and you got what ya want.

[melm00se]

17. let's deconstruct this article a bit shall we?

But polls consistently show that gun owners, including NRA members, overwhelmingly support the common sense measures that mayors across the country have been trying to get Washington to pass for years.

yet the poll Bloomberg links to is one that appears to be commissioned by MAIG.

In New York state, we have increased the mandatory minimum prison sentence for illegal possession of a loaded gun to 3 1/2 years, one of the toughest penalties in the country.

I am curious, how many convictions have been made using this law vs. these charges dropped as part of a plea bargain?

Nonlicensed sellers, however, are not required to perform federal background checks,

nor are they allowed access to NICS

as much as 40 percent of gun sales slip through this loophole.

Source?

Criminals and the deranged can buy guns

one classification is an objective measurement but the other can be purely subjective. Additionally, unless the courts have adjudicated someone mentally ill, what right does the federal (or state government) have to your private medical records?

buy guns simply by logging on to the Internet

let's look at buying a gun from an internet shop shall we?

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/howtobuy.php

You only need to provide us with two things to complete a firearm purchase online:

1) Payment: You pay us directly for the firearm. (Click here for payment options)
2) Federal Firearms License (FFL): We cannot ship a gun direct to you, we do ship to the local FFL dealer of your choice. Any legitimate gun store or gun dealer has an FFL license; pawn shops and collectors may also have them.

which then subjects the transfer to the existing Federal Firearms law.

=======================

6 questionable assertions....no real need to read further.

[aikoaiko]

20. The 40% figure is wrong. Bloomberg can't read research articles.

See table here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=994651

The real number of gunshow sales is 4%.

Bloomberg is either and idiot or a liar for saying 40%. Either way he is typical anti-gun freak.

[petronius]

37. The 40% has been floating around as the number of transfers via private sale

in total, not just gun shows. I've seen it cited here to what looks like a 'perspectives' type piece in one of those public health journals (maybe by Hemenway, I can't recall), but I haven't seen a cite to data yet...

[aikoaiko]

41. The data, I believe, come from a Cook and Ludwig study.

And it is true that they found approx 40% of transfers were private parties (but we don't know how many used FFL and NICS to assist with the transfer), but Bloomberg specifically attributes the 40% to gun show sales. If he actually used Cook and Ludwig's data, he'd have to say that only 3.9% of transfers occurred at gun shows and that's just not quite as compelling.

Guns in America by Cook and Ludwig
http://www.policefoundation.org/pdf/GunsinAmerica.pdf

Here is the table that summarizes their data.
[IMG][/IMG]

[Callisto32]

21. An easy step by step guide.

Step 1. Profit

Step 2. Take profit, and use it to buy a mayoral seat

Step 3. Use mayoral seat to provide yourself with a personal army of "police."

Step 4. Take said personal army and send them out of your jurisdiction to engage in illegal acts.

Step 5. Use the fact that a billionaire with a private army of useful idiots can break a bunch of laws to "prove" that we...need more laws.

[slackmaster]

24. Fuck Bloomberg, his armed bodyguards, and the horse he rode in on

[Kolesar]

28. Such insightful commentary!

Would not expect anything less from slackmaster

[MicaelS]

36. How about this? Fuck Bloomberg and..

His anti-Occupy, racist Stop and Frisk, setting up surveillance houses outside of jurisdiction - NYPD.

Of course as long as he's banging the drum for Gun Control he can be the biggest Fascist around, and the advocates of Gun Prohibition will turn a blind eye to every single bit of that.

As the evil Redleg Jayhawkers officer in "The Outlaw Josey Wales" said "Doin good ain't got no end."

[ileus]

25. FMB

[benEzra]

29. So does Bloomberg want to ban protruding handgrips and full size rifle/pistol mags, or does he not?

The quote in the OP would be a good attempt at dialog with gun owners, if it weren't for the fact that Bloomberg has pushed a lot harder for new gun bans than he has pushed for finding common ground on prohibited persons.

[Remmah2]

31. Says the man with a private army for protection.

NRA NFW
Bloomberg NFW

[4th law of robotics]

43. Stop pushing over the top emotion-based gun control laws

and the NRA will gradually lose all it's power and become again just a club for hobbyists.

People don't seem to realize that the NRA exists in its present form as a push-back against unpopular legislature.

Push harder against them and they will become even more influential.

[ErikO]

57. Why isn't Bloomberg in jail for straw purchases?

He colluded on several occasions to conduct a fraudulent gun purchase, why isn't he in jail?

Oh, that's right, he's rich. I forgot.

[ileus]

58. 1%ers don't go to jail.

[HALO141]

65. Easiest way to de-fang the NRA...

Stop pushing for ever more gun control.

Easy peasy, bada bing bada boom, dun. In no time at all the NRA will go back to being a firearms education organization and cease being a political one.