FLORIDA: Concealed Weapons Permit Holder Shoots, Kills Armed Robber.

[GreenStormCloud]

http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2012-06-30/story/armed-robber-shot-killed-after-victim-pulls-his-own-gun-jacksonville

A man was killed this morning when one of two people he tried to rob at gunpoint drew their own gun and opened fire on the would-be robber, Jacksonville police said.

Sgt. Shawn Coarsey said the robber approached the two victims who were in their car in the 1000 block of West 13th Street about 3:30 a.m. He said the victim did have a permit to carry the firearm.

How is this possible? We are frequently told by certain regular posters here that the criminal will always have such a strong advantage that our guns will be useless to us. The criminal is supposed to be a super-ninja and take it away from us. I bet the shooter must have practiced, maybe even in front of a mirror.

The victim should have used a very firm voice. That would have reduced the armed robber to a compliant, remorseful, child.

[Clames]

1. wonder how long before the usual suspects chime in...

...with their usual excuses a to why this robber was probably not a real threat and the person being robbed probably didn't need a gun and could have judo-chopped his way to safety.

[movonne]

2. You sure got that right...thank you for reason..

[AtheistCrusader]

22. I'm sure a bicycle tyre would have sufficed.

[Meiko]

3. C'MON

You know you created that website and posted that article. It's the only thing that could explain it.

[GreenStormCloud]

4. Notice how short the article is?

It used to be that stories like that merited much longer articles. It is almost like they are getting to be routine.

[spin]

5. Such incidents get longer articles only if there is a question about the use of lethal force. ...

The legitimate use of a firearm for self defense usually only receives local attention and only if shots are fired.

Any possible misuse of a firearm by a person with a concealed weapons permit will garner far more attention both at the local level and often at the national.

It is true that sites that are pro-gun rights often list stories that describe the use of a firearm for legitimate self defense. Unfortunately posting links to such sites is largely discouraged on DU. Note that I am not complaining as it is a fact that such sites often contain propaganda or links to other sites that do so. I try to do my best to post articles only from unbiased sites or actual news stories from local news sources.

I may be relatively odd as I am a progressive and liberal Democrat who actually supports gun rights and is in favor of the private ownership of firearms for hunting, target shooting or self defense. I might also be unusual as during the day I watch Fox News, CNN and MSNBC. I listen and consider all the views and form my own independent opinion.

Before I discovered DU I used to post on pro-gun sites where everybody agreed with me. I found that posting on DU was challenging and caused me to reconsider many of my pro-gun views. This experience also taught me a lot.

One of the major advantages of post on DU is that I can venture from the Gungeon and find intelligent and literate posts that were rare on the more conservative and pro-gun sites where I used to post.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

9. There is nothing odd about being a progressive or liberal and supporting the private ownership

of firearms for hunting, target shooting or self defense.

If anything is odd, it is those who claim to be more-progressive-than-thou based upon their unsupported belief that liberals and progressives don't own and don't know how to use firearms.

[spin]

11. Thanks. I agree with your comment ...

I personally believe that the First and Second Amendments in the Bill of Rights are two of the most liberal and progressive statements ever written.

[Meiko]

17. I agree

with you. Good comment.

[Lurks Often]

6. Damn those rude toters!!!!

How dare he violate the rights of that poor criminal and deprive him of the right to commit crimes and hurt innocent people.


I'm sure the pro criminal folks will be along to explain why people shouldn't be allowed to defend themselves.

[DanTex]

7. Pro-gunners and anecdotal evidence: like chlamydia and gonorrhea!

Statistically, there's no evidence that a gun reduces the risks from crime victimization. Bet there's plenty of anecdotal evidence! On an average day, 80 people are killed by a gun. Typically that breaks down into about 1 to 2 gun heros for the NRA crowd to celebrate, and 78 or 79 innocents that "guns didn't kill".

[PavePusher]

10. Why are you attacking an argument no-one made? Bored? n/t

[SkatmanRoth]

12. How are statistics collected for predatory criminals that do not attack potential victims?

Where are the statistics about crimes not committed because a criminal feared for their lives if the victim turned out to be armed and fought back?

[Trunk Monkey]

13. I'd be very curious

How many of that 78-79 left were drug related or gang related

[GreenStormCloud]

14. About half of those are suicides.

He is trying to get the number pumped as high as he can.

[Trunk Monkey]

25. I was told in EMT school

"If the jumper is still on the ledge when the firetruck gets there he didn't really want to die".

[GreenStormCloud]

26. Sounds about right. Many suicide "attempts" are really cries for help.

On the other hand those that really mean to die can readily do so by many means.

[GreenStormCloud]

15. You are counting suicides to get to that 78 or 79 daily total.

Are you claiming that guns radiate a mind-control field that makes people commit suicide? Then my guns aren't working right. I have had a certain shotgun for over fifty years and I haven't shot myself with it.

Anytime you post false or dishonest numbers somebody here will catch it and call you on it.

[DanTex]

18. According to experts on suicide, gun availability is a significant risk factor for suicide.

But in order to believe that, you have to first believe in statistical significance tests, scientific research, that sort of thing. You're probably just better off playing with your cherry-picked anecdotal evidence.

[GreenStormCloud]

16. How many of those were killed by a CCW holder?

Answer: Very, very few.

Your changes of getting struck by lightning are about eight times higher than your chance of being illegally killed by a CCWer.

[DanTex]

19. Since there is no comprehensive data on crimes committed by CCers, we don't know.

CCWers are screened for criminal records, so their rate of committing crimes is going to be lower than the general population. AFAIK, no study has ever looked into the question of whether CCers commit more gun crimes than a demographically similar group of people without CC licenses do. However, the best statistical evidence suggests that shall-issue laws on average cause a slight increase in crime rates.

[GreenStormCloud]

23. Texas keeps complete records and publishes them.

There is no reason to believe that the Texas experience is different from any other shall-issue state with similar requirements.
Here is the data for 2009:

I bolded a few that may be of special interest.

Offense---------------------------------------------Total Convictions------CHL Holders Convictions-----CHL %
ABANDON ENDANGER CHILD CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE---- 589------------------ 0------------------- 0.0000%
ABANDON ENDANGER CHILD IMMINENT DANGER BODI--- 72-------------------0-------------------0.0000%
ABANDON ENDANGER CHILD W/INTENT TO RETURN---- 138-------------------0------------------0.0000%
ABANDON ENDANGER CHILD W/O INTENT TO RETURN----21-------------------0------------------0.0000%
AGG ASSAULT AGAINST PUBLIC SERVANT--------------156-------------------1-------------------0.6410%
AGG ASSAULT AGAINST SECURITY OFFICER--------------4-------------------0-------------------0.0000%
AGG ASSAULT BY PUBLIC SERVANT----------------------12------------------0------------------0.0000%
AGG ASSAULT CAUSES SERIOUS BODILY INJ------------784------------------3-----------------0.3827%
AGG ASSAULT DATE/FAMILY/HOUSE W/WEAPON--------118------------------0-----------------0.0000%
AGG ASSAULT IN RETALIATION---------------------------3------------------0-------------------0.0000%
AGG ASSAULT W/DEADLY WEAPON-------------------2,603------------------4-----------------0.1537%
AGG KIDNAPPING--------------------------------------141------------------0-------------------0.0000%
AGG KIDNAPPING BI/SEXUAL ABUSE----------------------1-------------------0-------------------0.0000%
AGG KIDNAPPING BI/SEXUAL ABUSE SAFE RELEASE--------0-------------------0--------------------0.0000%
AGG KIDNAPPING FACILITATE----------------------------0-------------------0-------------------0.0000%
AGG KIDNAPPING FACILITATE SAFE RELEASE--------------1-------------------0----------------0.0000%
AGG KIDNAPPING FOR RANSOM/REWARD-------------------2------------------0-------------------0.0000%
AGG KIDNAPPING FOR RANSOM/REWARD SAFE RELEA-------0------------------0----------------0.0000%
AGG KIDNAPPING INTERFERE PERFORMANCE----------------0------------------0----------------0.0000%
AGG KIDNAPPING INTERFERE PERFORMANCE SAFE R--------0------------------0-----------------0.0000%
AGG KIDNAPPING RELEASE VICTIM SAFEPLACE-------------6-----------------0-------------------0.0000%
AGG KIDNAPPING TERRORIZE------------------------------2------------------0------------------0.0000%
AGG KIDNAPPING TERRORIZE SAFE RELEASE---------------0------------------0------------------0.0000%
AGG KIDNAPPING USE AS SHIELD/HOSTAGE----------------0-----------------0------------------0.0000%
AGG KIDNAPPING USE AS SHIELD/HOSTAGE SAFE REL-------0-----------------0-----------------0.0000%
AGG ROBBERY----------------------------------------1,845-----------------0---------------------0.0000%
AGG SEXUAL ASSAULT--------------------------------202------------------0-------------------0.0000%
AGG SEXUAL ASSAULT CHILD-------------------------1,350----------------13---------------------0.9630%
AGG SEXUAL ASSAULT OF ELDERLY/DISABLED PERSO------33----------------0------------------0.0000%
AIDING SUICIDE/SBI-------------------------------------0-----------------0-----------------0.0000
ASSAULT AGAINST ELDERLY OR DISABLED INDIVIDUAL-----28-----------------0------------------0.0000%
ASSAULT AGAINST GOVERNMENT CONTRACTOR/EMP--------1----------------0------------------0.0000%
ASSAULT AGAINST SPORTS PARTICIPANT------------------4----------------0--------------------0.0000%
ASSAULT CAUSES BI CONVICTED ANOTHER STATE----------2----------------0----------------------0.0000%
ASSAULT CAUSES BI RETALIATION W/GOVERN--------------0----------------0----------------------0.0000%
ASSAULT CAUSES BODILY INJ--------------------------8,443---------------14-------------------0.1658%
ASSAULT CAUSES BODILY INJ DATE/FAMILY/HOUSE------1,425----------------2------------------0.1404%
ASSAULT CAUSES BODILY INJURY FAMILY VIOLENCE-----20,290---------------7-------------------0.0345%
ASSAULT ON SECURITY OFFICER--------------------------6------------------0---------------------0.0000%
ASSAULT PUBLIC SERVANT------------------------------662-----------------1-------------------0.1511%
BURGLARY HABITATION INTEND OTHER FELONY-----------290-----------------0-------------------0.0000%
BURGLARY HABITATION INTEND SEX OFFENSE--------------29-----------------0--------------0.0000%
BURGLARY OF BUILDING---------------------------------4,231----------------1---------------------0.0236%
BURGLARY OF HABITATION-------------------------------4,738---------------0--------------------0.0000%
CAPITAL MURDER ANOTHER PERSON IN PRISON--------------0-----------------0-----------------0.0000%
CAPITAL MURDER BY TERROR THREAT/OTHER FELON---------25----------------0------------------0.0000%
CAPITAL MURDER FOR RETALIATION JUDGE/JUSTICE----------0----------------0--------------------0.0000%
CAPITAL MURDER OF A PEACE OFFICER OR FIREMAN---------19----------------0-----------------0.0000%
CAPITAL MURDER OF MULTIPLE PERSONS-------------------10-----------------0-------------------0.0000%
CAPITAL MURDER PERSON UNDER SIX YEARS OF AGE--------11-----------------0--------------0.0000%
CAPITAL MURDER PERSON WHILE ESCAPING/ATTEMP---------2-----------------0---------------------0.0000%
CAPITAL MURDER WHILE REMUNERATION---------------------1-----------------0------------------0.0000%
COERCE SOLICIT INDUCE GANG MEMBERSHIP-----------------1-----------------0-------------------0.0000%
COERCE SOLICIT INDUCE GANG MEMBERSHIP BI---------------0----------------0--------------------0.0000%
CRIMINAL NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE----------------------------67-----------------0--------------------0.0000%
DEADLY CONDUCT---------------------------------------1,510---------------19------------------1.2583%
DEADLY CONDUCT DISCHARGE FIREARM---------------------343----------------1--------------------0.2915%
DEADLY WEAPON IN PENAL INSTITUTION-------------------19------------------0-------------------0.0000%
DISPLAY HANDGUN LICENSE REFUSAL 2ND------------------0-------------------0-----------------0.0000%
HARASSMENT BY PERSON IN CORRECTIONAL/DETENT--------59-----------------0--------------------0.0000%
HARRASSMENT OF PUBLIC SERVANT-----------------------154-----------------0-----------------0.0000%
HOAX BOMB WEAPONS FREE ZONE--------------------------0-----------------0---------------------0.0000%
HOAX BOMBS----------------------------------------------2-----------------0---------------0.0000%
IMPROPER PHOTO/VISUAL RECORDING AROUSE/GRA----------9-----------------0-----------------0.0000%
IMPROPER PHOTO/VISUAL RECORDING W/OUT CONSE-------31-----------------0-------------0.0000%
IMPROPER RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN EDUCATOR/STU--------26-----------------0-------------------0.0000%
INDECENCY W/A CHILD EXPOSES-------------------------179-----------------1-----------------0.5587%
INDECENCY W/CHILD SEXUAL CONTACT------------------1,228----------------8-------------------0.6515%
INDECENT EXPOSURE-------------------------------------607----------------0---------------0.0000%
INJURY CHILD/ELDERLY/DISABLE RECKLESS SBI/MENT--------68----------------0--------------------0.0000%
INJURY CHILD/ELDERLY/DISABLE W/INT BODILY INJ---------513----------------0------------------0.0000%
INJURY CHILD/ELDERLY/DISABLE W/INT SBI/MENTAL---------75----------------0---------------------0.0000%
INJURY CHILD/ELDERLY/DISABLED CRIMINAL NEGLIGE---------38----------------0------------0.0000%
INJURY CHILD/ELDERLY/DISABLED RECKLESS BODILY--------122----------------0----------------0.0000%
KIDNAPPING-----------------------------------------------55----------------0-------------0.0000%
MANSLAUGHTER------------------------------------------105----------------0--------------------0.0000%
MURDER--------------------------------------------------406----------------1--------------------0.2463%
MURDER UNDER INFLUENCE OF SUDDEN PASSION-------------3-----------------0--------------------0.0000%
OWNER/OPER/EMP GROUP/NURSE W/INT DISABLE/EX---------2-----------------0-----------------0.0000%
OWNER/OPERATOR/EMP GROUP/NURSE W/INT VIOL-----------1-----------------0----------------------0.0000%
OWNER/OPR/EMP GRP/NURSE NEGL.PC 22.04(a)(1)------------0-----------------0--------------------0.0000%
OWNER/OPR/EMP GRP/NURSE NEGL.PC22.04(g)----------------0----------------0---------------------0.0000%
OWNER/OPR/EMP GRP/NURSE RECKLESS PC 22.04(e)----------0-----------------0---------------------0.0000%
OWNER/OPR/EMP GRP/NURSE RECKLESS PC 22.04(f)-----------1-----------------0---------------------0.0000%
PLACE WEAPONS PROHIBITED------------------------------173-----------------0----------------------0.0000%
PROH WEAPON--------------------------------------------153-----------------0-----------------0.0000%
PROH WEAPON SWITCHBLADE/KNUCKLE WEAPONS F-----------4-----------------0-------------------0.0000%
PROH WEAPON SWITCHBLADE/KNUCKLES-------------------912------------------1-------------------0.1096%
PROH WEAPON/WEAPONS FREE ZONE------------------------1-------------------0-------------------0.0000%
PUBLIC LEWDNESS-----------------------------------------318-----------------0------------------0.0000%
ROBBERY-----------------------------------------------1,913------------------0------------0.0000%
SEXUAL ASSAULT-----------------------------------------257-----------------0------------------0.0000%
SEXUAL ASSAULT CHILD-----------------------------------671-----------------3-------------------0.4471%
SEXUAL ASSLT BIGAMY--------------------------------------1------------------0------------------0.0000%
SEXUAL ASSLT PROH/PURPORT SPOUSE----------------------3--------------------0---------------0.0000%
SEXUAL ASSLT PROH/PURPORT SPOUSE UNDER 14YO-----------3------------------0--------------0.0000%
TERRORISTIC THREAT-----------------------------------------1,622-------------4---------------------0.2466%
TERRORISTIC THREAT AGAINST PUBLIC SERVANT-----------------99--------------0----------------------0.0000%
TERRORISTIC THREAT IMPAIR PUBLIC/GOV SERVICE----------------6--------------0----------------------0.0000%
TERRORISTIC THREAT INTERRUPT PUBLIC PLACE----------------218---------------0---------------------0.0000%
TERRORISTIC THREAT OF FAMILY/HOUSEHOLD------------------695---------------2----------------0.2878%
UNL CARRY HANDGUN LIC HOLDER--------------------------------165-------------31-------------------0.2500%
UNL CARRY HANDGUN LIC HOLDER ALCH PREM/CORR---------------2---------------0-----------0.0000%
UNL CARRY WEAPON/WEAPONS FREE ZONE-----------------------7---------------0--------------------0.0000%
UNL CARRYING WEAPON--------------------------------------2,523--------------9--------------------0.3567%
UNL CARRYING WEAPON ON ALCOHOL PREMISES-------------------75-------------1------------------1.3333%

[ohiosmith]

21. This post was alerted on and allowed to stand by jury vote of 4/2.

At Thu Jul 5, 2012, 06:48 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Pro-gunners and anecdotal evidence: like chlamydia and gonorrhea!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=47860

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Surely, comparing DU members to sexually transmitted diseases is unacceptable!

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Jul 5, 2012, 06:59 AM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Based on the group and much of their discussions.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: I can't see how this ISN'T 'hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top and otherwise inappropriate.'

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Clames]

24. Hypocritical post title of the year goes to...

Pro-gunners and anecdotal evidence: like chlamydia and gonorrhea!

Considering the Anti-gunners have nothing but anecdotal evidence...

[TPaine7]

35. Not that I think you actually care, but for others reading this,

people who kill themselves are hardly "innocent victims of gun crime."

Logically, there is a huge difference between self-inflicted and other harms. And legally, it is against the law to kill yourself. Obviously, being a real victim of gun murder violates no law.

So was the post I answered a result of ignorance, extreme bias, dishonesty, or all three? I don't know, and I am caring less and less.

[ileus]

8. Lucky gunner baser toter rude bastard.

[slackmaster]

20. Tragic waste of life

Dead guy apparently thought property was more valuable than life.

[DrewFlorida]

27. Show a little humanity and common sense!

A person was killed today, someone's son, grandson, maybe father.

A pause of respect for the life of another, right or wrong.

On first read it appears the shooter was justified in defending himself with deadly force, if it were me, I would be glad that I was carrying a weapon and was able to save my life and or, the life of my associate. There are times when using a weapon is an appropriate means of self defense.

When we see abuse of self defense with firearms, as in the Trayvon Martin murder, and we witness the disgusting behavior of extreme righties in their attempts to justify George Zimmerman's actions it is easy to respond to those socially irresponsible actions with an equal but opposite reaction. When we do that we become like those we despise, equally wrong and equally despicable. let us try to view events with compassion for all and clear even-handedness in the judgment of right and wrong, let us understand the difference between using an event for political awareness and abusing an event without regard for the people involved.

Let us choose our battles and responses carefully to maintain legitimacy to the progressive cause.

Sincerely,
Andrew

[GreenStormCloud]

28. You have judged Zimmerman without a trial. N/T

[DrewFlorida]

29. Yes I have.

Yes I have! My judgement is a preponderance of the evidence, I don't have the opportunity to collect all the evidence as an officer of the law should do but in this case didn't, and my judgement will not put him in jail for the rest of his life. However, in my opinion there is enough factual evidence to conclude that an innocent juvenile was walking home from the convenience store minding his own business, and he was sufficiently afraid for his life after being stalked by an unannounced stranger, at which he made an effort to stand his ground and fight for his life. unfortunately he was not able to save his life and was murdered. He is not able to provide testimony against his murderer.

RIP, Trayvon Martin.

[gejohnston]

30. I have a phrase for you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_by_media

http://truth-out.org/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=5577:trial-by-media-the-justice-system-no-one-wants-you-to-know-about

This comes right after Casey Anthony's electronic lynching and I'm old enough to remember Richard Jewell's. Those last two cases, "electronic lynching" is the best way to describe them. That makes me skeptical to cynical of the media. That does not mean I think your analysis is wrong, it just means I'll wait for the real trial.

[permatex]

31. As am I.

I don't know if he's innocent or guilty yet, I'll wait for the trial to conclude before I pronounce him innocent or guilty, but until then, in our system of justice, supposedly, Zimmerman is presumed innocent until proven guilty.

[DrewFlorida]

47. Just for your information!

The trial of George Zimmerman will not definitively determine his guilt or innocence, it will only determine whether or not there is reasonable doubt of his guilt. That is a far cry from determining him to be innocent.

I find it telling that you continually avoid mention regarding the O. J. Simpson trial, is that because you have determined him to be guilty of murder even though the court system found him not guilty?

There is a word for people who don't practice what they preach!

[permatex]

48. You keep bringing up OJ

what does he have to do with Zimmerman?
Do you honestly think I care what you find telling about me?
I don't bring up OJ because he has absolutely nothing to do with Zimmerman.

And what word would that be?

[DrewFlorida]

33. You left out the O J Simpson trial.

You said you have a phrase for me? What is it?

You mentioned a couple electronic lynchings, although nobody was lynched, they were judged. Legal judgements require "beyond a reasonable doubt" but social judgments do not require such a level of certainty, just as judging Mitt Romney to be hiding something in his offshore accounts can be judged socially, or the general public's certainty that O J Simpson murdered his wife and friend can be judged socially.

I'm also waiting for the real trial and could adjust my thinking depending on what facts are brought out at that time, but many of the facts will never be known due to the lack of proper evidence collection protocol by a racially biased Police force with a long history.

My stance is that Zimmerman is guilty until proven innocent, based on a great deal of evidence already known to the public.
I respect everyone's right to make or withhold judgment as they see fit. As this is not a court of law and none of the judgments made here will take away George Zimmerman's freedom, or physically harm him in any way, we are not required to wait if we so choose.

[gejohnston]

36. the phrase is "trial by media"

I figured you would gather that by reading the links.

I'm also waiting for the real trial and could adjust my thinking depending on what facts are brought out at that time, but many of the facts will never be known due to the lack of proper evidence collection protocol by a racially biased Police force with a long history.

That maybe questionable to false. He was arrested, there was an ongoing investigation when the lawyers and media hit the fan. One of the officers wanted to charge him with manslaughter, but was over ridden by the DA or Chief depending on which account.

My stance is that Zimmerman is guilty until proven innocent, based on a great deal of evidence already known to the public.

Much of that could very well be false. Once again, see Casey Anthony and Richard Jewell.

[DrewFlorida]

40. You have the right to your opinion.

You have the right to your opinion, but not to your own facts.

Fact: The investigation had concluded, with the decision not to persue charges based on Zimmerman's right to stand his ground.

Fact: The new investigation by the state DA was only instituted as a result of growing protests and national public outcry.

Fact: Standard police protocol for collection of evidence in a homocide was ignored and not followed.

Fact: It was the Chief of the Sanford police department who reassigned the lead investigator who initially wanted to press charges.

Once again; see O.J. Simpson

[USD79]

32. Personally, I believe in waiting for the facts to come out.

As an attorney, I have had ample experience in watching a media lynch mob fill the ignorant masses with inflammatory "facts", that were proven to be false at trial. I don't know the facts of this case, but I'm unwilling to come to a conclusion based on the result that I want because of media reports. BTW, the standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt", not a preponderance of the evidence. That standard is for a civil trial. And I must say, you are apparently willing to make baseless conclusions without setting forth your basis for these conclusions. PS: judgment has no e.

[DrewFlorida]

34. I'm sure as an attorney!

I'm sure as an attorney, you have also seen justice fall by the way side due to miniscule details, many times as well.

Sometimes because of the collusion of those in charge and their personal/political needs, justice is a secondary priority. I believe in the Zimmerman case that was exactly the case, his father was a retired judge with lots of connections in law enforcement, the original lead investigator didn't believe Zimmerman's story and wanted to investigate it more thoroughly, but was quickly taken off the case by the chief of police who was under fire for past racial issues in the "good ole boy town" of Sanford Fl.. Standard homicide evidence protocol was ignored and in one case an officer attempted to coerce a witnesses recollection of who she heard calling for help. But the most basic facts tell the story, a youth was walking home unarmed, minding his own business, attempting to get home for the 2nd half of the NBA All-star game, he notices someone following him, he has no idea who it is (Zimmerman had nothing to identify himself as a self appointed neighborhood watch man and made no attempt to identify himself in that way). Neighborhood watchmen who are state or nationally certified are trained to identify themselves, they are also trained to cooperate with the local police instructions, Zimmerman ignored the instructions of the 911 operator to wait for the police to show up, neighborhood watchmen who are certified do not carry handguns, Zimmerman was in effect a self appointed vigilante who was angry about the robberies in his neighborhood, he did not use any certified criteria as a basis for deciding that a young black youth was suspicious, he automatically connected being black, young, and wearing a hoodie with being suspicious, regardless of the fact that it was raining out and any normal person would wear something to cover the head. Zimmerman took off running after the kid and Trayvon ran in fear, fear of the 225lb man chasing a 160lb teen, Zimmerman was not afraid, in fact he was the predator, at some point shortly after the facts are not so clear, it seems that Trayvon hid to avoid Zimmerman and Zimmerman found him, started yelling at him and Trayvon defended himself out of fear for his life/safety.

I only wish that Trayvon had won that fight and was able to run away back to his father's home, where he could be safe from vigilante gun toting aggressors.

We will soon see what comes of the evidence which was collected 46 days after the fact, had Sanford been blessed with an unbiased police force with an eye for detail and justice it may be easier to know the full truth, but we don't have the luxury of equal justice for all in this country.

Sincerely,
Andrew

[gejohnston]

37. wrong.

Neighborhood watchmen who are state or nationally certified are trained to identify themselves, they are also trained to cooperate with the local police instructions,

Zimmerman was not acting as a neighborhood watchman at the time.

Zimmerman ignored the instructions of the 911 operator to wait for the police to show up,

False. In the tape, it can be clearly be heard that Zimmerman stopped walking or running once the the cop said "we don't need you to do that."

neighborhood watchmen who are certified do not carry handguns, Zimmerman was in effect a self appointed vigilante who was angry about the robberies in his neighborhood, he did not use any certified criteria as a basis for deciding that a young black youth was suspicious, he automatically connected being black, young, and wearing a hoodie with being suspicious, regardless of the fact that it was raining out and any normal person would wear something to cover the head. Zimmerman took off running after the kid and Trayvon ran in fear, fear of the 225lb man chasing a 160lb teen, Zimmerman was not afraid, in fact he was the predator, at some point shortly after the facts are not so clear, it seems that Trayvon hid to avoid Zimmerman and Zimmerman found him, started yelling at him and Trayvon defended himself out of fear for his life/safety.

None of that is known as fact. Martin was close to the house where he was staying. In fact, he was closer to that house than Zimmerman was to his truck. As for the rest of it, you are simply repeating speculation.

[DrewFlorida]

43. Wrong!

[oneshooter]

45. Since you have convicted him without a trial

You should be willing to pull the lever on him.

AMIRIGHT?

[DrewFlorida]

46. You confuse the role of social judgment and criminal judgment!

You make it sound as though you do not use social judgment.
Social judgment does not take away anyones physical freedom.

Try making an argument without exageration!

[DanTex]

38. Welcome to the Guns forum (aka Gungeon)...

A few things you should know. First off, the people you are arguing with are part of the hardcore pro-gun crowd, which believes that "Defensive Gun Use" is a heroic and validating act, to be pursued with religious fervor. Mentioning the humanity of the victims, that he was someone's son or someone's father, is as offensive to the them as mentioning to Scientologists that maybe Xenu didn't actually bring humans to earth in a spaceship an hundred million years ago. Your lack of faith in will result in your being deemed a "Suppressive Person" "gun grabber" and you will be treated with suspicion throughout the cult of Scientology the NRA.

And stating your opinion about a guy who stalked a teenager carrying a bag of skittles, and later shot and killed him, won't win you many friends either. We're talking about a gun hero here! Cleaning the streets of undesirables! Show a little respect! Never mind that Zimmerman judged Trayvon Martin without a trial, and he didn't just make an internet post about it. That's different. Zimmerman was a self-appointed gunslinging vigilante trying to score himself a DGU, those people are allowed to judge whoever they want.

[DrewFlorida]

39. Well said!

Well said!
Thank you!

[Marengo]

49. What do you consider "well said" in that post?

[Clames]

41. He'll only have trouble if he confuses his opinions with "facts"...

...and spews non-stop emotional, technically inaccurate, and divisive statements (aka VPC/MAIG/LCAV/Brady Campaign talking points). Basically reading yours, ellisonz, bonbbong's, jpak's, and a few others posts here.

[DrewFlorida]

42. I will defend all of my positions.

I will defend all of my positions with accurate demonstrable fact, where and when I am shown to be wrong, I will adjust my position to reflect the true facts.

I am a registered independent, although with the advent of the rightwing moving to the extreme right, I do have the appearance of a hardline left progressive.

[ManiacJoe]

44. In that case, your actions will set you apart from the

regular cast of antis here in this forum.