Gun Owners Victorious in New York (Microstamping mandate blocked)

[shadowrider]

Charlotte, NC --(Ammoland.com)- Last week, the New York Legislature wrapped up its 2012 regular legislative session with the microstamping mandate being blocked for the fifth consecutive year. Despite a last minute attempt by anti-gunners to push Assembly Bill 1157B through the Assembly by an 85 to 60 vote on June 19, the Senate rightfully refused to move this ill-conceived gun control scheme.

This session,New York finally eliminated its costly and ineffective CoBis system – the state ballistic imaging database. That expensive and wasteful program tapped taxpayers $4 million annually for roughly a decade without solving a single crime.

http://www.ammoland.com/2012/06/28/gun-owners-victorious-in-new-york/

Good. Microstamping will only increase costs and can be easily beaten.

[TPaine7]

1. "$4 million annually for roughly a decade without solving a single crime."

That's pretty good for a gun control law. Many "reasonable" gun control laws waste lives as well as money.

[Euromutt]

10. That includes keeping cops tied to a desk instead of on patrol

You can never tell what might have been, but if the $4m/year and the cops assigned to CoBIS had been put toward better enforcement, some lives lost over the past decade might have been saved.

[TPaine7]

23. You're right, it still wasted lives. That's what I get for trying to give gun control a break.

Thanks for correcting me.

[Hoyt]

2. While website may have reported correctly that micro stamping blocked,

It is such a "lovely" site:

?ctc=2012

_________________________

Link to Ammoland feature article by Chuck Norris "Is Obama Creating a Pro-Gay Boy Scouts of America?"

http://www.ammoland.com/timthumb.php?src=&w=75




". . . . . .It is a coincidence that Obama will stand up repeatedly for the children of illegal immigrants (and grant them amnesty and taxpayer money) but that he will not once stand up for children in the BSA and the organization’s rights and freedoms to hold their own core values and beliefs? [". . . . . .to stand against atheists, agnostics and homosexuals?"]

" . . . . . .I’ll ask once more: Is it a coincidence that BSA national board member James Turley came out swinging against the BSA’s century-old policy to ban gays from leadership and that he has such close affiliations with the pro-gay Obama administration?"

Read more CRAP at Ammoland.com: http://www.ammoland.com/2012/06/26/is-obama-creating-a-pro-gay-boy-scouts-of-america/#ixzz1zO1rXyhr
_________________________

?ctc=ar15

________________________

Typical forum posts:

Michelle Obummer can KMA. The Second Amendment doesn’t give me any Right to own or carry a firearm; it PROTECTS the RIGHT against governmental infringement. I seriously doubt the U. S. Congress would pass legislation banning all firearms at this point, but a future Supreme Court might very well try. As the Right existed long before the Constitution, or the written languages, for that matter, and was most certainly NOT conferred upon We, the People, by “government”, “government” does not possess the ability to abolish it.

Let ‘em try it, though. Several MILLION American gun owners might have a little difference of opinion on the matter.
_____________

The government wants our ammo, Then lets give it to them one at a time.
_____________
what if it came to them or us who would could will stand out up and strong
can you stand up for your rights, civil disobedience, petition and march on washington, in an open carry march where’s that put us in our own country, illegals get protected marches in their own country they would be subdued
______________

http://www.ammoland.com/timthumb.php?src=&w=75




NRA Applauds Resolution Finding Holder in Contempt of Congress
There is little doubt that the White House used the Fast and Furious program to advance its gun control agenda... Read more CRAP at Ammoland.com: http://www.ammoland.com/category/pro-gun/#ixzz1zO6WtrxX
________________


You guys really need to quit hanging out in places like this.

[rrneck]

4. You certainly seemed to enjoy it.

It's good "partisan porn", no?

[Hoyt]

5. Just identifying web sites frequented by gun culture for what they are -- right wing cess pools.

Is it one of your favorites too?

[rrneck]

6. I can tell you like to watch.

Really into the shocking stuff, huh?

[Hoyt]

8. Just the kind of stuff designed to titillate you guys. A lot of it ends up on the SPLC site too.

[rrneck]

9. Then why do you dig it so much?

I'm not the one that went dashing over there to post pics of Chuck Norris. You must really dig the whole "forbidden" feel of "gun culture". Just put your quarter in and the panel slides back...

[Hoyt]

11. Just setting the record straight where some "good law-abiding gun culture members" hang out.

Last edited Sun Jul 1, 2012, 04:25 PM - Edit history (1)

If you guys wouldn't keep posting things from Obama hating, bigoted, right wing lethal weapons lovers, I wouldn't even know places like ammoland exist.

[rrneck]

12. Ah. All in the name of research. Suuuure.

You're providing an important political service by personally exposing yourself to that disgusting "gun culture" so others don't have to bother. How noble of you.

Don't worry, if you're too shy to join in you can just watch.

[Trunk Monkey]

52. Well now, wait a second

By brining that tripe over here isn't he needlessly exposing all of us to it?

[rrneck]

53. It's a hard lesson, and there is a stiff penalty for ignorance.

But he feels the thrust if his insight is the most penetrating and vigorous on this board. And he works to plunge into the seamy world of gun culture again and again to passionately reveal the naked lust for tubular intimidation that throbs beneath the surface of the issue.

It's for our own good you see...

[mvccd1000]

50. Thank you for qualifying that callout.

The only "gun" websites I frequent (or even occasion) are DU and opencarry.org, although I only really post here. The rest of my daily reading is newspapers and car forums.

[cherokeeprogressive]

13. How do you find them in order to identify them for us?

Would a good analogy be walking shopping center parking lots looking for offensive (to you) bumper stickers and then coming here to tell us what you happened upon?

[Hoyt]

14. No, your buddy posted the link in the OP. Hope you are more observant when carrying.

[cherokeeprogressive]

16. Maybe you should rephrase? "identifying web sites" should be "identifying A web site I was LED to"?

"and would never, HAVE never ever never ever gone to sites like that on my own..."

[Hoyt]

17. I think that is clear. Your support of ammoland, etc., is too.

[Scootaloo]

27. What, you expected different?

[bongbong]

7. That site

That site should be renamed "Idiot-logues_Of_America.com"

[krispos42]

41. Once again, you seem shocked that gun owners are not lefties.

I mean, after the Democratic Party put all kinds of gun-control stuff in their party platform, and rank-and-file Democrats turn up their noses at guns and the people that own them, I can't imagine why pro-gun news isn't showing up on anti-gun discussion boards and news site!

[Hoyt]

44. It's hard to imagine a "liberal" hanging out with right wing bigots and assault weapon lovers.

[Clames]

48. Nowhere near as hard as imagining you coming up with an original and salient point...

...to your rants in this group. In fact I don't think it's possible.

[Hoyt]

49. A true liberal would not tolerate the bigotry and love of guns designed to appeal

to right wingers' baser instincts.

[friendly_iconoclast]

51. Seems like there's an outbreak of Anslinger-Wertham-Bennett Syndrome in this thread

And BTW, we tolerate a lot of bigotry- much of it emanating from "liberals" here at DU, aimed at us...

[Meiko]

3. Wow! they did something right

No sense in throwing good money after bad on scams that aren't going to work. It would make more sense to start chipping guns than trying to keep track of the ammo. I wonder if using RFID chips adapted to firearms would be of any use? It wouldn't be much good unless the gun was left behind but maybe it's a start. They could use read/write only chips so there is no transmitter involved. The chip could be uploaded with the owners information. Couple that with NICS checks for private sales. If the gun was sold it could be reprogrammed.

Well it was just a thought that has tons of holes in it I'm sure.

[Marinedem]

15. Good.

Micro-stamping is a clear example of the complete cognitive disconnect of the anti-gunners.

[Hoyt]

18. "Cognitive disconnect" - as is gun culture's opposition to any sane restrictions.

[spin]

19. If micro-stamping ammo was worthwhile ...

I would agree with you.

It's simply one more expensive and useless "feel good" law.

There are many things we can do to reduce violent gun crime in our nation that actually work. Why should anyone support a harebrained scheme when there are far more effective alternatives. I suspect the answer is simply that micro-stamping would impose technical problems for gun manufacturers and increase the cost of firearms for the buyers.

[Hoyt]

20. Was not simply talking about microstamping. Gun culture is against almost any restriction.

I'm not too worried about manufacturers. They've been profiting from pumping out stuff that appeals to the gun culture's baser instincts for a long time.

[spin]

22. Perhaps the resistance of the gun culture to further restrictions is understandable ...

as the gun owners feel that it has long been the desire of those to oppose guns to move step by small step to their final goal of banning the civilian ownership of firearms.

First a ban on "assault weapons" followed by a ban on semi-auto pistols and then a ban on handguns, etc.

I will admit that I don't totally buy into that theory but there could indeed be an element of truth in it.

[Simo 1939_1940]

24. Might I recommend the following, spin......

.......a somewhat long read - but a very good one.

http://www.saf.org/journal/13/absolutistpoliticsinamoderatepackage.pdf

[spin]

33. Thanks, that was indeed a good read ...

and provides evidence that there is a basis for the "camel's nose under the tent flap" theory of incremental gun control leading to a total ban of civilian ownership of firearms.

Today HCI (Handgun Control Inc.) has changed its name to the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. It is possible that the motives of the organization have changed but still many gun owners suspect this is false.

Both gun owners and those who oppose firearm ownership might be able to find common ground to work on to improve gun laws in our nations if it were not for the prior history of the gun control movement in its glory days.The pendulum has swung in the other direction and currently the gun rights movement is riding high in the saddle.

I personally would like to see far better enforcement of existing laws on the straw purchase of firearms and smuggling of such weapons into the large urban areas for criminal uses. This might included stiffer penalties for such activity including charging anyone who was involved in the illegal transfer of firearms as an accessory to any crime committed with the weapons involved.

A firearm safety course could be required for the purchase of firearms. I remember several times at the range when an inexperienced shooter would bring in a firearm that they had owned for a long period of time. When they showed it to the range master without properly clearing it, he would ask them, "Is that weapon loaded?" They would reply that they didn't know how to check.

The NICS background check system could be improved and financing provided for states to better input data on a more timely basis to the system. The NICS background check system could also be opened and possibly required for all private sales. This was mentioned on page 34 of the article you linked to:

Licensing of gun owners likewise seems redundant for crime control purposes, once one has background checks on prospective gun buyers, as is already required for purchases from licensed dealers under the Brady Act. These checks could be extended to nondealer transfers by requiring private buyers and sellers to use licensed dealers as brokers, who would then perform the usual checks. This, however, would not require licensing. HCI claims that licensing is needed to permit more thorough background checks, involving fingerprinting and more time-consuming checks of paper records than are possible under the present “instant” background checks. They also argue that licensing would permit better residency verification, thereby disrupting interstate gun running, and would require completion of a gun safety course.131

What is most noteworthy for present purposes is that licensing of owners is not needed to accomplish any of these goals. The government could issue certificates of nonfelon status, based on background checks as thorough and prolonged as one could want, without retaining lists of persons receiving the certificates, and then merely require that prospective gun buyers present an up-to-date certificate before a gun could be transferred. Under such a system, there would be no government-controlled list of gun owners generated. Likewise, certificates of completion of a gun safety course, or of residency, could be issued without any government retaining lists of recipients.

Thus, the one goal that HCI‟s licensing proposal would indisputably achieve that could not be easily achieved by these other means, is a federal government list of all legal gun owners. Likewise, the only goal clearly achieved by registration is that it would provide a complete list of guns legally owned by those licensed owners. Thus, the element that HCI appears most intent on achieving is government records of who owns guns and what guns they own. In sum, HCI places highest priority on giving the government a resource that would indisputably facilitate mass confiscation of guns, but that has no documented value for reducing crime or violence.
http://www.saf.org/journal/13/absolutistpoliticsinamoderatepackage.pdf

One of the true drivers of gun violence in our nation is the turf wars fought between criminal gangs who deal in illegal drugs. Our War on Drugs was lost many years ago but we refuse to admit it. A good first step would be to legalize drugs such as Marijuana as this would financially impact drug gangs.

It is unfortunate that in our current political environment, rather than work together to solve our problems, we often cement ourselves into our positions on many issues and refuse any compromise. This unfortunately works to the advantage of the controlling 1% who are more than willing to continue the status quo and enjoy watching the 99% squabble over wedge issues.

[Scootaloo]

28. Perhaps "gun culture" is full of paranoid dumbfucks?

It has all the signs of being just another regressive cult movement; There's not a lot of difference in the arguments of gun culture, white supremacists, "men's right activists," teabaggers, and Corporate Libertarians.

It boils down to privileged people who are spending their time convincing themselves that "liberals" are "oppressing" them. Meanwhile they maintain that they - and they alone - are the "voice of liberty."

[Meiko]

29. Spoken like someone

who knows nothing about gun owners, the gun industry and what drives us. You have been conditioned to see guns and gun owners a certain way and there is no way you are going to back up for once in your life and take a look at the facts. "cult movement" you can't be serious. You do realize that there are a lot of guns and gun owners in this country that come from all walks of life. This is not some fringe group we are talking about.

Most estimates range between 39% and 50% of US households having at least one gun(that's about 43-55 million households). The estimates for the number of privately owned guns range from 190 million to 300 million. Removed those that skew the stats for their own purposes the best estimates are about 45% or 52 million of American households owning 260 million guns).

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_gun_owners_are_there_in_the_United_States_of_America#ixzz1zTf4NSj0

Even if you don't want to admit it guns are at the very core of American history, this is not a recent trend. Guns have been with us since the first settlers landed here and have traveled with us to where we are today. There has always been the illegal use of guns and I am sure that trend will continue, at a decreasing level I would hope. Guns helped make America what she is today and they are not going anywhere. Get used to it.

[Scootaloo]

36. I recognize a difference between gun owners and "gun culture"

Basically, if guns were anime, it'd work like this;

Gun owners:


Gun culture:

[PavePusher]

35. Perhaps you are buying and promoting bigoted stereotypes?

The world is far less binary than your fevered imagination.

[Scootaloo]

37. See my reply to Meiko, above

[gejohnston]

38. not much of an answer

Of course, if your only information is propaganda and TV "news", your view of realty is not really clear. It works the other way as well. That is how bigotry is created. BTW, What is a "men's rights activist?"

[Scootaloo]

39. It's a sufficient answer, though

Not all gun owners are part of the "gun culture" just as not all people who watch anime are crazy otaku screen-lickers.

And Men's rights Activists are... woo, where to begin on that one. I guess there's ome legit ones who are after stuff like fixing the way courts treat custody disputes and such, but, fir the overwhelming most part? "Men's Rights Activists" are the sort of people who postulate that men are oppressed by society, women are cruel for not putting out on demand, and... all sorts of crazy shit. Key words are "gynocracy," "friendzone," "femistasi," "misandry" and many references to "sammiches"

[gejohnston]

40. Other than your distorted less than accurate view of the "gun culture"

what is wrong with the "gun culture"? Your description of "gun culture" is as shallow and bigoted as the right's description of Islam or Wicca. Come to think of it, the left has been doing the same with Mormonism. So, ignorance and bigotry is not unique to the right, is it? Do you have as much disdain for all gun cultures or only in the US?

[Scootaloo]

42. Okay, if you will...

Set me straight; what is "gun culture," according to gejohnston?

[Hoyt]

45. Oh, there are a lot more important things to worry about than what might happen to your guns.

[spin]

47. I agree with you on that ...

I have no real fear that the government will confiscate my firearms in my lifetime.

[oneshooter]

21. What "sane restrictions" would you support?

[PavePusher]

34. If it's "sane", then surely the police and military should adopt it first....

to set the example, right?

I'll carry my ice skates to the Seventh Circle well before that happens, I'll wager.

[Remmah2]

25. $4 million on COBIS? without solving a single crime!

"This session,New York finally eliminated its costly and ineffective CoBis system – the state ballistic imaging database. That expensive and wasteful program tapped taxpayers $4 million annually for roughly a decade without solving a single crime. "

The NY state budget is in the total crapper and they're rehashing microstamping for the 5th year? What a waste of time. They can't balance a budget or get one out on time, NY government is incredibly dysfunctional.

[Simo 1939_1940]

26. That's 4 million *annually* for ten years. NT

[Remmah2]

30. I can think of a lot better ways to allocate $4M annually.

There's a lot of NY public schools that still burn "coal" as a heating source. Talk about neglecting an education system. Nothing like pissing away opportunity and resources.

[Meiko]

32. Exactly

There are a lot of places the money could have been spent, what a waste.

[Meiko]

31. Not one crime

was solved in all that time? what a cost effective program.

[slackmaster]

43. They were planning to make up for the poor ratio by doing much larger volume

If you keep dividing larger and larger numbers by zero, surely something will change eventually.

[shadowrider]

46. Two guys

decided to make a bunch of money. They bought a small pickup, went to Florida and bought watermelon for $5 each. They returned to Kentucky and sold them for $5 each. After about 4 trips, they decided they needed a bigger truck because they weren't making any money.

That about sum it up?

[spin]

54. It should be pointed out that the failed CoBis system was signed into law by a Republican ...

and was eliminated by a Democrat.

Cuomo whacks Pataki gun law

Last Updated: 5:07 AM, April 2, 2012

With virtually no public notice or legislative debate, a centerpiece of ex-Gov. George Pataki’s controversial multimillion-dollar anti-gun-crime program was shot dead Friday by Gov. Cuomo’s new state budget.

The budget killed off the so-called CoBis, or Combined Ballistics Identification System, which was rolled out with much fanfare by Pataki in 2000 in what was widely seen as an attempt by the politically ambitious Republican “moderate’’ to appeal to anti-gun Democrats nationally, possibly for a future presidential run.

Pataki claimed CoBis would use state-of-the-art technology to establish a “DNA database for handguns’’ by requiring manufacturers of new semiautomatic pistols to file spent cartridge shells with the State Police, so that their markings could be kept in a traceable registry and compared to any found at crime scenes.

***snip***

Trouble is, the Pataki program NEVER worked. Despite the hundreds of thousands of spent shells submitted, not one criminal was ever captured using the extensive and costly-to-maintain database, state officials concede.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/cuomo_whacks_pataki_gun_law_IdjMJUXtMATKjhzqCOJLAK

Another failed "feel good" gun control law bites the dust!