Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumPhiladelphia officials should identify rogue gun sellers
A Kensington 18-year-old accidentally took his own life earlier this month, according to news reports, when he put a handgun that he did not know was loaded to his head and fired it on a dare during an online video chat. The media coverage of the shooting focused on the most unusual aspect of the story — the online dare — but the more important issue is how the gun got into the teenager's hand.
According to one report, the weapon was an illegal handgun obtained by the youth's 22-year-old brother, who was asleep in the same room when the shooting took place. (Police have not filed charges in the shooting.) If that's the case, it was likely purchased on the street through the city's extensive illicit firearms network, and the dead teen would be alive if not for an illegal gun. That's the real tragedy in this case, and it's a tragedy that is repeated endlessly in Philadelphia, where the availability of illegal guns and the carnage they reap are devastating families and neighborhoods.
Mayor Nutter has loudly and repeatedly expressed outrage at the daily death and destruction visited on the city by illegal guns, warning of the toll taken particularly on a generation of African American men. We at Heeding God's Call, a faith-based movement to prevent gun violence, share his sentiments. The highly efficient illegal gun trade — which depends on gun retailers who sell to straw buyers and gun traffickers, who then resell them to people on the street who do not have to undergo background checks — deserves our disgust, anger, and efforts to eliminate it.
To the mostly white gun dealers who sell to the people who resell guns on the street, this is all about sales and profits. But to the communities of color where these guns are used, it's about injury, death, and devastation.
http://articles.philly.com/2012-06-28/news/32458078_1_illegal-guns-gun-retailers-gun-violence
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ileus
(15,396 posts)Clames
(2,038 posts)The fact it existed is probably enough for the usual VPC/MAIG/Brady Campaign/LCAV parrots to call it illegal but according to the laws there a 22 yo is old enough to own a handgun. Another ignorant article written by somebody who doesn't stop for pesky facts...
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)
hack89
(39,171 posts)Clames
(2,038 posts)This OP isn't in the habit of responding or initiating discussion in the topic they post. Much like the other serial drive-by poster jpak, expect nothing more strenuous than a copy-paste-disappear exercise.
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)the illegal, straw purchasers to be prosecuted?
Remmah2
(3,291 posts)nt
Remmah2
(3,291 posts)Immature people should not have access to guns, cars, elected positions, public computer access nor should they make babies.
"To the mostly white gun dealers"; a little journalistic racism?
Meiko
(1,076 posts)FFL for years, I have sold and transferred many weapons of all types. I have been investigated from time to time when a gun I sold showed up at a crime scene. As long as my required paperwork was correct I had nothing to worry about. When a customer wanted to buy a handgun and did not have a CCW. He filled out a 4473, I did a NICS background check and if the check came back OK he was cleared to purchase the weapon, no waiting period. I would check his ID (usually a drivers license)against the 4473 if the address did not match the sale would be denied. If the address on your drivers license is incorrect(very common problem) I would not sell the gun to the individual, it used to make people as mad as hell but I had no choice. The penalties for selling a weapon on bad ID are really stiff.
If the person had a CCW it was easy. Fill out the 4473, check all ID's, no NICS check. Pay and you are out the door.
The point being that the retailer has no idea if the gun Joe Smoe just bought is for somebody else, we as FFL's are not required to ask. It's like the ID, what if the drivers license is fake? how am I going to know I am not a forensics examiner. Unless the fake ID was really bad it might be used over and over again before it's discovered. If someone wants to purchase numerous handguns it would be easy for them to travel around a large metropolitan area visiting gun stores and buying guns. I don't know how many guns could be bought and resold before the ATF caught wind of what was going on, but I imagine quite a few.
In the past there was a movement to get newspapers not to advertise private firearms sales. The campaign had limited success however and mostly it was the larger papers that enacted the ban. If you take a look at a sampling of papers from across the country you will notice that the buying and selling of private firearms is alive and well,,,,Anyone up for a road trip.
Callisto32
(2,997 posts)Nie wieder....
Lot of folks that sounded like they were more interested in trying to figure out where there was a house with guns, than actually interested in purchasing. One guy actually said "well, sounds a little beat up compared to what I'm looking for (I had just described it as right about 95% finish and a broken micrometer on the windage adjustment on the sight, which still adjusted and stayed put, but did not click), hey, where are you located."
ETA: Of course, I was planning on doing the transfer through an FFL for legal/safety/CYA purposes.
DonP
(6,185 posts)So are all the Federally licensed and controlled FFLs supposed to refuse to sell guns to African American customers now, based on Nutters concerns? Or just the White FFLs?
Or are they supposed to make them sign their 4473 in blood and take an oath that they won't resell the gun to any African Americans?
It's very confusing in Philadelphia.
NewMoonTherian
(883 posts)Assuming the gun dealers have any evidence that their guns are being resold by traffickers, how can they act on those suspicions without exposing themselves to discrimination lawsuits?
If I were a gun dealer, I wouldn't want to open up shop anywhere near a large city. But that's the real goal here; to make it so uncomfortable for legitimate gun dealers to operate in the city, they'll all leave.
Callisto32
(2,997 posts)To those that know me, I am known as a "gun guy." One of the more common questions I get asked by people with such knowledge is "I have a PA LTCF (what we call a CC permit), but somebody said that it's invalid in Philadelphia County. Can I carry my gun in Philly?"
YES.
LTCFs are valid in the entire Commonwealth (and all the states with which PA has a reciprocity agreement, but you are bound by their state law on when/where/how it may be carried), including Philly, no matter how much Nutter and his cohort of "stop and friskers" would love for the misinformation otherwise to be true.
ETA: I know this is a little off topic, but figured it was as good a place as any to drop this info for our PA residents. Also, I initially thought of it tying in with the whole "make it uncomfortable, and they will stop without us actually banning it" tactic.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)does not reqire the LTCF for open carry, Philly does require it for open carry ("city of the first class", and they are the only one in the state 
).
Callisto32
(2,997 posts)These actions were utterly reckless, showing depraved indifference to the value of his own life. Had the decedent done this with the firearm pointed at another and I were the prosecutor, I would be seriously considering murder charges.
DonP
(6,185 posts)Imagine how much worse it could have been. At least that seems to be the common response from people that support gun control when anyone even suggests making gun safety an integral part of K-12 education.
Sad, pointless and a totally avoidable tragedy with even the most basic safety education.
Callisto32
(2,997 posts)but this is totally reckless, Darwin-Award-level stuff. A human being with any instinct for self-preservation should be experienced enough by the age of 18 to know you don't point a mass driver of ANY kind at the central nervous system of yourself or another, unless it is another and that other is attempting to cause you or a third party grievous bodily injury or death. I really, truly wonder how someone can live so long without figuring that much out on his own.
Trying to hang it on the person who sold the mass driver (I'm looking at you, Nutter) is flat out dishonest.
Attempting to use this to "prove" something relating in any way to firearms policy....oy vey.
DonP
(6,185 posts)Didn't realize that even with the mag out one might still be in the chamber and with a DAO design it's like Russian Roulette with all 6 in the cylinder.
At least with a 1911 you might have to cycle the slide and hopefully eject the round when you did.
Apparently it's easier for people like Nutter and Rahm to blame the "mostly white FFLs" than address the core problem of teenagers in gangs.
NewMoonTherian
(883 posts)I'm 100% behind shutting them down and locking them up. But how do we know dealers are willingly participating in this activity? If an honest gun dealer suspects that a straw purchase is taking place, what should he do? What is he required to do? What constitutes reasonable suspicion? If he refuses sale, is he going to be accused of discrimination? This is a nightmare for gun dealers who are trying to run a legitimate business without hurting anyone.
How can we shut down illegal gun trafficking without unduly burdening legitimate gun dealers?
Callisto32
(2,997 posts)That is after denying the sale, but making sure you get copies of all alleged forms of ID presented.
BUT, there appears to be a former FFL in the thread, so...Meiko, take it away....
DonP
(6,185 posts)Callisto32
(2,997 posts)ESPECIALLY if it is against your better judgment.
Meiko
(1,076 posts)is to gain all the information you can. Make copies of all the paperwork and notify your local ATF that you had what you believe was an attempted straw purchase. They will then interview you and take any paperwork or copies you might have. The ATF will take the 4473 used so make sure you make a copy for your records.What I was told by my ATF inspector was that I could refuse a sale for any reason. I did not need probable cause or anything else.
If the customer was nervous and I thought something was afoot I could refuse the transaction. If his ID looked wrong for any reason or he had alcohol on his breath. If there were two people that seemed to be involved in the purchase of the gun I could refuse.. I refused a sale one Saturday afternoon because the guy was being a pain in the ass, aggressive and abusive. He reported me to the ATF. The ATF agent called me and asked what happened so I told him, he said no problem. He told the customer to go back to me and apologize and behave himself or he was going to have a hard time getting his gun. The ATF backs the FFL on this point. After all these are guns we are talking about. I was not about to transfer a gun to an angry half drunk person with a serious attitude problem. If I give him the gun and he goes next door to the subway and kills the teller because the kid lipped off to him the cops and possibly the ATF will want to talk to me, I don't want that hanging over my head. During the time I held my FFL I refused several sales and had several background check denials, you get used to it. Some FFL's are not as careful they are only interested in the money end of it.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)slackmaster
(60,567 posts)There is more than one way that the young man's death could have been prevented.
Trunk Monkey
(950 posts)I'd say it's more a case of the dead teen would be alive if not for his own unbelievable stupidity
