Too many wildfires caused by gun owners, says Utah governor

[Eugene]

Source: Christian Science Monitor

Too many wildfires caused by gun owners, says Utah governor

By Patrik Jonsson, Staff writer / June 23, 2012

ATLANTA

Some of the wildfires scorching the West this year were sparked by unusual culprits: Gun owners. Or, more specifically, gun shooters.

As with the Dump fire in Utah, which flared hard enough on Friday to force the evacuation of 1,500 homes and 9,000 people, nearly two dozen conflagrations, officials say, have started accidentally by careless target shooters whose bullet sparks touch off dried-up pinon and wild grasses.

[font size=1]-snip-[/font]

While authorities can ban certain fire-related activities when fire risks are high, that’s not true with guns, the carrying and use of which are staunchly protected by state and federal law, including several recent Supreme Court decisions.

In Utah, for example, a state law prohibits the state from enacting emergency bans on guns, putting Gov. Herbert in a position of instead asking county governments to issue emergency rules for outdoor gun use as wildfire conditions prevail across the West.

[font size=1]-snip-[/font]

Read more: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2012/0623/Too-many-wildfires-caused-by-gun-owners-says-Utah-governor

[ZombieHorde]

1. Hmmmmm...that is an interesting problem.

I generally support gun rights, but wildfires are a pretty big deal, in my opinion.

[villager]

2. The 2nd Amendment guarantees a right to start wildfires! We need a Supreme Court ruling

...denying this cause-and-effect!

[krispos42]

3. Copper and lead does not spark on rock

Hollywood action movies notwithstanding. Sounds like a load of BS to me.

[petronius]

6. Could hot brass falling into dry grass do it? Or the flash from the gun itself?

If there was an actual direct link between shooting and fires, I think it would be completely reasonable to put dry areas off-limits to shooting until the risk was past.

I notice that they seem to be conflating different 'emergencies' - the North Carolina law, for example, was about banning guns during things like hurricanes and blizzards, where firearms are unrelated to the emergency. Not really the same kettle of fish as a situation (if it is in fact the case) where shooting activities can be directly linked to an impact. It's a bit deceptive, really, to allow that blurring in the article...

[krispos42]

39. I could see if it was black powder

That stuff has a tendency to not burn completely in the barrel. When you shoot it, often times still-burning embers are blasted out behind the bullet, and that can start fires if they land on tinder.



Hot brass won't (it's not THAT hot), and the flash from smokeless powder is just a flash... there's not enough heat contained in the spurt of gases to set anything on fire.

I suppose as well they could be firing tracer or incendiary ammunition, but that stuff is hard to find and kind of expensive., and it would be pretty damn stupid to be doing so.

Past that, I don't see how a gun could start a fire by itself.

[tularetom]

80. Yup, my nephew burned off a couple acres of our pasture with a muzzleloader shotgun

He was using some homemade cardboard wads and one of them must have landed in some dry grass.

That's the only time in 25 years living here I've seen a fire start from any kind of firearm.

The idiots on ATV's that run up and down our dry creek bed on the other hand average one or two a year. In addition to destroying the banks and causing winter floods.

[Yavapai]

18. I have to agree, this is BS!

It is kind of like hearing the ricochet when the projectile hits dirt or the 50th round of fire from a six cartridge revolver.

Another BS from the movies is when they show a silencer screwed onto a revolver and you can't hear the sound of a gunshot.

[Euromutt]

72. How about steel-cored bullets?

A lot of military surplus ammunition, and stuff made to military specs like 7.62x39mm and 7.62x54mmR stuff coming out of the former Soviet bloc, has a steel core for penetration, and the steel will spark. The common test at formal ranges is whether the bullet will adhere to a magnet; if it does, you can't shoot it.

[krispos42]

75. Hmmm.... I thought steel-core was illegal?

"Armor-piercing", and all that jazz that makes Feinstein and McCarthy all righteous.

[Euromutt]

82. Armor-piercing handgun ammunition is illegal

Rifle ammunition is under no such restriction.

[krispos42]

83. I did not know that. Thanks! n/t

[thelordofhell]

4. You can't start a fire in the wild with a gunshot

You can however, start a fire with your discarded cigarette or badly managed campfire

[S_B_Jackson]

36. Depends.....

If the shooter is a dumb-ass who's decided to shoot a magazine-rull of tracer rounds "cause it would be cool" then starting a fire, as my cousin did, is not only possible.

It's been over 12 years and you can still see the burn scars, about 150 acres, on the mountain face - he and his equally dumbass father - lied about the cause of the fire saying only that a "normal" jacketed .308 round skipped off a rock and struck sparks, starting the fire.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

5. Source: Christian Science Monitor ?!

[Sherman A1]

13. .........

[Tuesday Afternoon]

14. I am skeptical, is all --

just struck me funny... haha...meh.

[Sherman A1]

35. Do you read the CSM on a regular basis?

I have always found it to be one of the single best news "papers" and sources along with being written above a 6th grade level.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

37. I used to read it and I agree with you - but - this piece is kind of a

I haven't read it in years, I admit.

Thought maybe it had changed and was bent toward a conservative POV ... just struck me as odd source for DU is all.

[Life Long Dem]

7. I think we need MythBusters to jump in on this one.

[GreenStormCloud]

8. Only if they are using tracers to hunt with. I have never seen that done.

In the Army I have seen tracers start brush fires.

[sarisataka]

11. I agree

Every fire I have seen on a range involved tracers.
We even set a stack of tires on fire once. As hot as the brass is, it cools quickly. I think you would have to try very hard to start a fire with brass

[Lionessa]

77. These are shooters, not necessarily hunters, so they may have tracers, right?

Last edited Wed Jul 4, 2012, 01:56 PM - Edit history (1)

The wild west-ers don't need hunting as an excuse to go shooting, they love to fire them things off.

BTW, I am a gun owner, have been a CCW holder, etc, so I'm not anti-gun, just commenting on what I've seen to be true.

[gejohnston]

78. so, what is your problem with westerners?

or it not being paved over like much of Florida?

[Lionessa]

79. Huh? I think you've misunderstood.

I am a westerner. The reason I set it separate, west-ers in which I intended to represent those of the wild west attitude of gun slinging, which presents these days as a bunch of guys going out to the wilderness, drinking and shooting, not hunting.

I have no problem with westerners as you represent.

[Turbineguy]

9. Get rid of the Forrest's! Cut down all those fucking trees!

Problem solved.

[ileus]

10. maybe they're shooting gallons of petrol instead of targets.

[gejohnston]

12. French Foreign Legion strikes again?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/23/french-foreign-legion-wildfire
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/5893790/Foreign-Legion-branded-imbeciles-after-sparking-forest-fire.html

[rl6214]

15. Bullshit

[ileus]

16. Millions of hunters take to the woods in the fall without incidents of forest fires...

Sounds like someone just hates shooters enjoying their sport.

[DBoon]

20. We all know it is only heavy metal drummers that spontaneously combust

very, very rare for hunters

[Euromutt]

73. Hunters and shooters aren't necessarily the same thing, not is it always sport

When I was out hunting turkey last year, I tromped along various trails in various wildlife and national/state forest areas, and I came across a depressing number of spots where some morons had been plinking and left the area littered with shot-up bottles and cans, not to mention cartridge cases and hulls, especially cheap steel non-reloadable ones (e.g. Wolf and Herter).

Which isn't to say I don't enjoy going out with some friends and blasting the snot out of some targets, but we take biodegradable targets (e.g. pumpkins bought right after Halloween, or watermelons et al.) and we do our level best to police our brass (including non-brass) afterward. We bring trash bags, is what I'm saying.

[Dr_Scholl]

17. I call BS.

Tracers aside, bullets don't spark.

[Glaug-Eldare]

19. If there's a credible link, there's a good argument for temp. restrictions

Last edited Sat Jun 23, 2012, 08:49 PM - Edit history (2)

As long as nobody goes overboard and tries to attack ownership/carry/transport/etc., I don't see any conflict whatsoever. Provided that the state can demonstrate that discharging firearms exacerbates high fire risk, a specific prohibition on discharging firearms on park land during elevated fire risk conditions is totally consistent with the 2A. Post a "no discharging firearms" notice at each entrance along with the fire risk condition, and you're good to go.

EDIT: I understand that lead doesn't spark, brass cools quickly, and I'm not stating that hunters must have caused the fire with guns. This post merely addresses the constitutionality and authority of the state to restrict the non-emergency discharging of firearms in certain places at certain times.

[ManiacJoe]

21. I have seen black powder guns start grass fires.

However, lead and copper don't spark on rocks. Sounds like the governor needs to do more research.

[struggle4progress]

22. Galuchie Gulch Fire West of Loveland Was Started by a Gunshot

By: Todd Harding | April 5, 2012
http://k99.com/galuchie-gulch-fire-west-of-loveland-was-started-by-a-gunshot-video/

[ManiacJoe]

24. Specialized ammo and gasoline?

[AtheistCrusader]

34. A video to prove how easily?

Really? Gasoline and lighter fluid, with a tracer round? Not exactly 'easily'...

[PavePusher]

51. Sounds a lot like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dateline_NBC#General_Motors_v._NBC

Dateline NBC aired an investigative report on Tuesday, November 17, 1992, titled “Waiting to Explode”. The 60 minute program was about General Motors Chevrolet C/K pickup trucks allegedly exploding upon impact during accidents due to the poor design of fuel tanks. Dateline's film showed a sample of a low speed accident with the fuel tank exploding. In reality, Dateline NBC producers had rigged the truck’s fuel tank with remotely controlled model rocket engines to initiate the explosion. The program did not disclose the fact that the accident was staged.

[struggle4progress]

23. Fire sparked by gunshot evacuates Utah homes

By The Associated Press
Published: June 23. 2012 4:00AM PST

SARATOGA SPRINGS, Utah — Residents of at least 2,300 homes in northern Utah were being evacuated Friday after high winds kicked up a fire started by target shooters ...

BLM officials say they believe the blaze was caused when a bullet hit a rock and sparked the fire. This is the 20th target-shooting related fire this year in Utah, they said.

http://www.bendbulletin.com/article/20120623/NEWS0107/206230367/

[ManiacJoe]

25. Except that lead and copper do not spark on rocks.

[gejohnston]

26. Not so sure

It might be possible if a copper jacketed bullet hits a rock harder than copper. I don't think lead can cause a spark.
http://survivaltopics.com/flint-and-steel-what-causes-the-sparks/

If it has anything to do with shooters, most likely smokers that don't know how to put their cancer stick out properly. It also may be tracers.

[oneshooter]

28. Ever consider steel jacked Mill-Spec ammo?

[gejohnston]

31. actually no, all of the mil spec ammo I have seen is

copper FMJ. Even then, the rock would have to be at least seven on Moh's scale. Flint for example. BTW, wouldn't that trash the barrel?

[AtheistCrusader]

33. It's steel core.

There's a steel slug inside a copper and lead jacket.

Dubious, but theoretically possible. Tracers slightly more likely. Far more likely is one of the shooters dropping a cigarette.

[oneshooter]

42. A lot of Mil Spec ammo is steel jacketed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_Ammunition

Steel-jacketed bullets

Not only the cases of Wolf rifle ammo are steel. Most of Wolf's rifle cartridges use steel jacketed bullets, though they look like copper jacketed. The copper exterior of the bullet is only about .005 inch thick, (about twice the thickness of a sheet of paper) with a steel jacket underneath about 1/32 inch thick. Only the cartridges in the yellow and black boxes have real copper jackets. The core of the steel jacketed bullets, sometimes marked "bimetal", are lead. Some rifle ranges have started magnet testing shooter's ammunition to determine if bullets are steel jacketed. The steel is said to be more likely to ricochet, and also to cause sparks on impact, which can be a problem when shooting in dry grassland, or forest areas. In addition, a large majority of pistol ranges will not allow shooters to use Wolf, or other Russian ammunition types because of the steel jacket components on many of their products. An oft-cited reason for this is because they claim it damages the backstops. A more likely reason for not allowing steel-cased
ammunition is that the ranges are unable to re-sell the berdan-primed steel cases for reloading, an important source of revenue for many ranges.[citation needed]


http://www.firearmsid.com/bullets/bullet1.htm

Oneshooter

[PavePusher]

54. More info:

http://www.firearmsid.com/bullets/bullet1.htm


A lot of Wolf ammo is listed as "bimetal" jacketed. I'm guessing that means steel with a very thin copper overlay to keep from trashing barrels.

http://www.wolfammo.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1&Itemid=12

[Remmah2]

30. Maybe the shooters were smoking?

Nasty habit.

[Straw Man]

27. Yeah, well ...

a) exploding targets (e.g. tannerite): yes
b) incendiary ammo (e.g. tracers, "dragon's breath&quot : yes
c) traditional black powder gun: maybe, in close proximity to highly combustible vegetation
d) muzzle flash from short-barreled rifle/shotgun: maybe, ditto
e) rounds sparking on rocks: highly unlikely unless a highly combustible accelerant is present

I have no problem with a ban on a) and b) in wilderness areas. Furthermore, temporary bans on recreational shooting during times of high fire danger do not infringe on anyone's RKBA. But I suspect an outright firearms ban on public land is what the usual suspects are stumping for.

[Remmah2]

29. I wonder what percent of wildfires are caused by firearms?

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/wildfires/2009-05-14-human-caused-wildfires-increasing_N.htm


http://www.dof.virginia.gov/fire/fire-causes.shtml


I wonder of the governor of Utah is a smoker?

[cherokeeprogressive]

32. I can hit the head of a stick match from 100 yards.

I guess I'll have to stop that now.

Um. Yeah.

[ileus]

38. Now we see their plan.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47934760/ns/us_news-christian_science_monitor/#.T-ci2KFq23E


First it was SYG now it's now this....both cases built on lies they know people won't bother to learn the truth about.

SYG aren't shoot first laws.
Denying the government the ability to ban gun use in emergencies isn't about target shooting when it hasn't rained.

[Kali]

40. there is a rumor going around my neighborhood (rural)

that one of the recent fires was started (and confessed to) by a guy using a shotgun to scare off some coyotes...is this even possible? (it IS very dry here and the burn was on an area that has been "preserved" from livestock grazing for more than a decade - translation: tons of tall, VERY DRY grass)

the rest of the 10 or so small fires around here are rumored to have mostly been lit by a local police chief's son and one or two by lightening.

[Clames]

41. Keep this in mind on military qualification ranges.

There are usually around 5 conditions used to judge when certain types of ammunition, explosives, or pyrotechnics are restricted due to the potential to start a wild fire. Even at Level V there is no restriction on the use of standard ball (non tracer) small arms ammunition below the M2 .50 BMG machine gun. The standard M855 5.56 mm M16/M4 ammo has a steel penetrator. 7.62 mm M80 Ball is copper gilded but steel jacketed. I seriously doubt range controllers would risk a wild fire under the most favorable conditions if there was credible evidence such ammo could spark one.

[Hoyt]

44. A spark could start a fire. Although about as likely as you needing a gun in public.

Yet the gun culture promotes toting.

[Glaug-Eldare]

45. Hey, let's try an experiment!

Some people don't like grapefruits. How does that fact relate to handgun carry?

[Hoyt]

46. Carrying a lethal weapon in civilized society is not comparable to liking grapefruits, liver, etc.

You failed the "experiment."

[Glaug-Eldare]

47. The experiment didn't fail, the results were just disappointing

I was hoping your compulsion to bring up handgun carry extended to fruit conversations, as well

[Remmah2]

59. Second amendment obstructionist are kind of like bananas.

Born green.

Lead yellow belly lives.

Depart this world rotten.

The difference is fruit flies like bananas.

[Remmah2]

57. Can you send a map and timetable please?

I'd like to keep track of the civilized portions of society so I can avoid the uncivilized sections.

If society is so civilized, how come we still have muggings, rapes, home invasions....................

[Clames]

52. A spark causes a fire?

Are you sure? You sure they aren't started by fire ants?


Seems obvious that even under the high volume firing of military machine guns that such concerns are considered too remote to cease range operations. Common sense at work though, you should try it some time.

[Hoyt]

43. Guns present a lot negatives. You won't hear it here much.

[Remmah2]

48. You can't have democracy without them.

nt

[Hoyt]

55. Leave em at home until the revolution comes. n/t

[Remmah2]

58. Are you hoping for a revolution?

nt

[Hoyt]

61. Nope, but if that is one of your rationales for arming up -- you can leave em at home for awhile.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

63. you need to quit saying that. seriously. it is not cute nor funny.

[Hoyt]

64. Sorry, some here like to talk about the importance of accumulating guns to balance state power

or similar nonsense. You are right - it's not funny in the least.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

65. then you need to address the ones that make those statements and not just toss out

that line willy nilly. honestly Hoyt, I don't think the Admin would care for it at all.

[Hoyt]

66. I did address a poster who alluded to that. And it is used to promote guns.

You chose to jump in with inaccuracies. But push the Alert button if you like.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

67. bwahahahahaha! oh Hoyt.

never mind. you are just too silly to bother the jury's time with an Alert. the Admin on the other hand have legal issues to consider. Democracy = Revolution that is Just too Rich for words.

[Hoyt]

68. Try - guns are nessecary for democracy. That's their mantra.

It's BS and most often used by right wing gun nuts.

Maybe, you should try being a bit more discerning.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

69. sounds like you are the one that needs to alert.

[NewMoonTherian]

76. What if it isn't?

What about those of us whose rationale for arming up centers around self defense against violent crime?

[Tejas]

49. Guns preVent a lot negatives.

[Hoyt]

56. Not enough.

[Tejas]

60. I agree, more guns would prevent even more negatives.

At least that is the trend concerning number of firearms vs crime, or so the FBI says.

[Hoyt]

62. Of course, most folks realize more guns haven't reduced crime. Heck, crime might be so much lower

without all the friggin guns in circulation.

The only people claiming more guns reduce crime (or attempting to slide it by), are those just trying to rationalize their bad gun habit.

[Tejas]

70. So, less guns would create more employment?

Oh. Without guns, they would get a job? Maybe instead of home invasions they would attain gainful employment at a knife factory?

[bongbong]

81. Logic

Logic is antithetical to religion.

To be a gun-religionist in good standing, you have to renounce logic.

[rl6214]

71. We will if you're on here commenting

[4th law of robotics]

74. Every right has negatives associated with it

Free speech means neo-nazis have the right to march.

Restrictions on how the police may act ensures that occasionally guilty people (even murderers) will walk.

[Tejas]

50. The same Republican that signed the 3-day waiting period on abortion.

Utah Gov. Herbert Signs Law Mandating 72-Hour Wait for Abortion
http://www.newsmax.com/US/Utah-abortion-wait-Herbert/2012/03/21/id/433303

This governor has so many great ideas.

[Meiko]

53. The govenor

has been given some bad advice. I would like to know what is exactly behind this comment. Somebody within the state wants gun owners off the land, period.