Ammo Selection

[Meiko]

Although it hasn't come out in trial as of yet because we haven't reached that point. I wonder what type of ammo George Zimmerman was using the night of the shooting. If we find out that he was using hollow points it's Katey bar the door, the media will grab that and run screaming into the night. There will be story after story about cop killer bullets and the magic powers they possess. My guess he was using a Federal Brand Hydra Shok of unknown bullet weight. From what I have read there was no exit wound.

[gejohnston]

1. my guess he bought

cheap FMJs. If they were hollow points or hydro shocks, we would have heard about "armor piercing cop killer bullets" already.

[Glaug-Eldare]

42. Apparently he bought it to deal with a pit bull in the neighborhood

Either a friend or police, not sure which, suggested he buy a gun to protect himself from the dog. If that was the only reason he bought it, it's entirely possible he made ammo decisions entirely on the basis of cost.

[gejohnston]

43. According to the Reuters article,

animal control. They convinced him a pistol would be better than pepper spray.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

2. In the absence of you knowing about an exit wound, he must have used Federal Brand Hydra Shok?

Assuming that there was no exit wound, is this the only type of ammo that will not leave an exit wound?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

69. Not at all

1) We do not know there was not an exit wound at this point.

2) There are any number of hollow point/soft point rounds in 9mm*19mm. Hydra Shock is just the best known. Their performance is all reasonably similar.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

72. That's what I'm thinking.

[Meiko]

100. My opinion

Regular ball ammo will fail to leave an exit wound under the right circumstances...for example; bullet weight, amount of clothing the attacker is wearing,caliber of the weapon used , round placement (did the bullet hit a bone) There are many variables. Even hollow points will leave an exit wound under certain conditions.

[Hoyt]

3. So what do toters here use in case they have to shoot a raving maniac

or unarmed teenager?

[S_B_Jackson]

6. Well, I don't know many who own firearms who make such a fine distinction, but to satisfy your.

curiosity...I use Winchester Ranger T .45 ACP +P, my wife generally uses Federal Hydrashocks.
For home defense, a 12 guage loaded with #3 buck.

[krispos42]

7. The best expanding bullet you can buy...

...that feeds reliably, detonates reliably, and shoots to point-of-aim.

[rhett o rick]

23. I agree, kill with as much gore as possible. The guys at the bar love it. nm

[Meiko]

29. Gore

What does gore have to with anything, we are discussing ammunition choices and how it pertains to the Trayvon killing.

[PavePusher]

46. Ummm, "detonates reliably"? Seriously?

Last edited Mon Apr 30, 2012, 12:12 PM - Edit history (1)

Did you forget the sarcasm tag?

Edit: Argh, disregard, see post #51. Sorry....

[Glaug-Eldare]

49. The primer and powder. Misfires or squib loads are bad news. n/t

[PavePusher]

51. Argh, my bad.

I thought s/he was refering to the old "hollow-point-exploding-bullet" myth.

I need to get some damn coffee....

[krispos42]

57. :-)

I save my laser-guided shaped-charge bullets for rabid squirrels.

[gejohnston]

8. the best person to ask about unarmed teenagers

would be the local drug gang with poor aim or NYPD.

[ManiacJoe]

10. Speer Gold Dots, same as the local police department.

Probably because they were on sale at the time.

Any quality hollow point will get the job done; just make sure they function reliably in your gun as some guns get picky about what you feed them.

[Meiko]

11. It varies

depending on what gun I am carrying but I almost exclusively use Federal Hydra Shoks in bullet weights matched to the caliber. Maximum stopping power with far less chance of over penetration.

.380 95gr Hydra Shoks
9mm 147gr Hydra Shoks
.45ACP 230gr Hydra Shoks

[Hoyt]

13. How many folks are you shooting? Jeeez, I can't remember what brand of banjo

strings I use unless I have used them a bunch.

[gejohnston]

17. the print on ammo boxes tends to be bigger

than banjo strings. Plus, you use up ammo whenever you go to the range. How often do you break strings?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

18. Not surprising

Shooting is a sport of details, which matter and drive accuracy and effectiveness. You have never shown any interest in details and the accuracy that goes with it.

Federal Hydrashock is a very well known product with many years on the market and an outstanding reputation. If you sidearm feeds them reliably and shoots accurately with them, they are an excellent choice

[Hoyt]

30. Shooting is not really a "sport." Besides, we are talking ammo for self-defense guns.

I guess some folks consider shooting at silhouette targets and such as "sport."

[ProgressiveProfessor]

37. It is a sport, your opinion to the contrary not withstanding

[Hoyt]

54. Then, why are there so many out-of-shape shooters?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

68. As compared to those competing in Olympic Curling for example?

Actually most seriously competitive shooters are actually in fairly good shape. It really does help

It is also clear we can count on you to attempt to pitch yet another false stereotype.

[rl6214]

78. You don't have to have bulging muscles and 4% body fat to engage in a sport.

Just take a look at half of the pitchers in major league baseball.

[DonP]

39. You might want to break the news to the Olympic committee

They foolishly think it's a sport. But I'm sure they'll defer to your "wisdom" on the issue.

[Hoyt]

52. Are you skiing to the range like Olympians, or just putting up silhouette targets to practice

shooting people?

Curling is also considered a sport, but let's be real -- it's shuffle board on ice. Some folks consider NASCAR a "sport" too.

[gejohnston]

55. that is only the biathlon

which is not the same as rifle, pistol, and skeet.

[DonP]

65. Once again your "wisdom" on display

That's the Winter Olympics. But you didn't even bother to Google Olympic Shooting Sports.

That kind of initiative is why gun control is so "successful today". Keep up the good work.

[HALO141]

83. Since when are we re-labeling sinicism and derision as "wisdom?"

;o)

[PavePusher]

47. Shooting is not a sport?

Then I guess you are not an idiot.

[Hoyt]

53. Correct on both accounts. Shooting is not a sport, and I am not an idiot (IMO, YMMV).

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

60. The experts differ with you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_at_the_Summer_Olympics

[Spoonman]

56. Your Banjo........

One of my best friends (violinist for the Houston Symphony) has the following to say about banjos:
"Banjos are to music as Spam is to food…"

Need I explain?

[Hoyt]

58. Well, if you or the violinist are into guns -- there's a lot we could say about that too.

[Spoonman]

62. I should have known.......

Your music, my sport.

[gejohnston]

59. Bluegrass is good music

every bit as good as classical. Now a banjo and a harpsichord together might sound weird.

[Glaug-Eldare]

61. B-b-but...that's stupid backward racist bumpkin music!

After all, it's not all the rage in New York and Chicago

[Hoyt]

63. Banjo is not all about bluegrass, although I like it. Poor slaves actually brought banjo to America.

And, just for the heck of it. A banjo can be an excellent weapon. It's sturdy, heavy, and has all kind so metal pieces that can be painful. It's also a good prod or club.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

66. We dun gots...

...laws 'bout carryin' conceal'd banjos.

You sum kinda outside aggi-tader?

[rl6214]

79. But can it be anywhere as good as your can of pork and beans?

[rl6214]

77. In order to be proficient, something you anti-gun zealots claim no CC owner ever is

we have to practice. When we practice, we buy lots of ammo. When we buy lots of ammo we generally know what we are buying. When we practice a lot, it becomes a shooting sport, whether you like it or not.

[Hoyt]

84. How proficient at shooting does one have to be for self-defense? I mean isn't self-defense close

range. Now if you are practicing shooting people at 100 feet or something -- that is not really self-defense in most cases (and the cases that are are not many).

[rl6214]

85. You are one of the anti-gun zealots always screeching about CC people not being proficiet

Do you want people to be proficient or not?



"Now if you are practicing shooting people at 100 feet or something"

Who said anything at all about shooting:

A. People
B. shooting at 100 ft

As usual you are making shit up to fit whatever your anti-gun zealots mind wants to make up



















You forgot to say ZIMMERMAN

[Hoyt]

86. Actually, I don't see being proficient at shooting citizens a plus for society. I guess you do.

[HALO141]

88. Just curious...

would you also question any requirements for shooting proficiency among the police?

[Hoyt]

98. Most gun carriers aren't the police, but some definitely wannabe.

[Meiko]

90. You should be

very proficient. I myself have taken several handgun courses from basic to advanced techniques. One course actually employs a simulator so you can practice a variety of scenarios under different lighting conditions.

Statistics show that most confrontations take place at 21 feet or less, that's pretty close. My rule of thumb and one used by many police is that if you are faced by a man with knife and he is at 21 feet or less, draw your weapon and take aim. The man with the knife can cover the 21 feet in 1.5 seconds and if you are just standing there you will be stabbed before you can draw your weapon. It is hard to know the details of self defense unless you take some training.

[Meiko]

27. I haven't shot anyone

at least not lately. I just need to know what ammo goes in which gun.Reasoanble enough, wouldn't you say.

[Meiko]

12. There is nobody here

that has shot an "unarmed" teenager that I am aware of, why don't you just leave it alone.

[Hoyt]

14. For all we know, Zimmerman was here before he went on the run after shooting an

-- here's that term again -- unarmed teenager.

[Straw Man]

16. For all we know ...

... you're George Zimmerman, the self-hating vigilante.

[ileus]

33. you make a good point.

[DonP]

40. He certainly qualifies as totally clueless about proper and safe firearm use

Could be.

[ileus]

41. and he keeps wanting to shoot people....

[rl6214]

76. I use hollow points in my 9mm, .40ca and .45ACP.

I do not want over penetration if I were to miss my target.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

99. According to some experienced shooters, some brands of HPs won't expand at low velocities

(i.e., when fired through short barrels).

You may already know that an exception is Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel +P.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

81. 10mm 165gr Gold Dot HP or 135gr Nosler JHP.

[jeepnstein]

94. Federal brand.

Hydra Shock 230g in .45 auto for my primary and 147g "Premium" HST 9mm for my backup. The 147g 9mm is a pretty stout load.

I also use Federal 00 Buckshot, the reduced recoil "Tactical" loads for my shotgun. My slugs are standard Federal 1 oz. full power loads.

[sarisataka]

4. There are several reasons

that there may not be an exit wound, even with FMJ.

It is most likely he did use some form of hollow point.

[ileus]

5. Hydra shocks for my 380....

For my nines I like golden sabers....Cor bons for my 45 and speer gold dots for the 40.

Beyond Nato why would anyone carry FMJs unless their gun won't run HPs. You want to expend all the energy into the subject and avoid pass throughs to put an end to the fight as quickly as possible.

I figure Zman was the type to buy wally world ammo, so I'll go with Winchester PDX. PDX will kill deer BTW...

[krispos42]

9. I always figured that ideally...

...the bullet would exit your attacker and plop down on the floor/ground right behind him.

This would transfer virtually all kinetic energy and momentum to your attacker, have maximum bullet expansion and subsequent wound path, and still leave two holes in the bad guy for him to try to plug.

[jeepnstein]

95. If it weren't for the risk of over-penetration...

I'd shoot FMJ in my .45. That's the beauty of a really large and heavy bullet, you don't have to rely on expansion to get the job done. FMJ is frowned upon in my department.

[razorman]

15. I read that the pistol was a Kel-Tec; definitely not top-of-the-line.

So, it wouldn't surprise me that he might only have used FMJs, or some other, less-effective round. Either way, it made little difference that night.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. Kel-Tec is a perfectly functional pistol

They seem to be targeting CCW owners, so they then to be lighter, thinner, and smaller.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

73. Some think that you can cause them to misfeed with hollow points.

They may think that the length of the round in the magazine may be a factor.

Some also think that they can jam during the first 100 rounds or so until the slide is worn down.

Here's one that jammed on the first round:

Here's one that jammed over and over again:

[HALO141]

87. For what it's worth,

I'd never consider carrying a pistol for defense until it had at least several hundred rounds through it and two or three boxes of the preferred flavor of asshole repellant just to be sure it functioned reliably.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

92. Reliability has to be absolute in those situations

It is why some favor revolvers.

I have found many sidearms change their point of aim significantly when using specialized defense rounds as well

[ProgressiveProfessor]

93. I have seen all brands of pistols misfeed

Most of the time it can be worked out. Sometimes the shooter is contributing to the problem as well.

Standard approach is to:
- Try a different load/brand
- Try a different shooter

If the problem does not change...take it to a gunsmith or the manufacturer.

I have not seen that Kel-Tec firearms are any better or worse than any other second tier brand. I have had all of my personal firearms mildly modified over time and all of the autoloaders feed ramps polished at a minimum.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

97. Another approach = keep the wrist stiffer. The light weight of the Kel-Tec is a factor.

See, e.g., http://www.ktrange.com/articles/a8/a8.html

[ProgressiveProfessor]

101. Thus the step of trying another shooter

Autoloaders require a still wrist to function adequately and many new shooters have to learn to control it properly

[ProgressiveProfessor]

19. There may or may not have been an exit wound

The only data we have is from a mortician who freely pointed out that some of that detail was destroyed during the autopsy.

Until the State Attorney decides to/has to release the autopsy report, we won't really know.

Some sort of hollow point would be a logical choice for someone with knowledge in shooting sports. What Zimmerman knew or did not know is also unknown.

[rhett o rick]

21. It may be just me, but I think this is a sick as hell post. nm

[Union Scribe]

22. And which juror were you? nt

[rhett o rick]

24. Not one that reveals in using the amo type that destroys as much human tissue as possible.

There is a sickness in America and George Zimmerman exemplifies it. Give a bully a gun and someone will die.

[sarisataka]

25. There are good reasons to choose hollow points over FMJ

Hollow Point Bullets are More Effective When Defending Yourself

Hollow point bullets are more effective than their non expanding counterparts (such as full metal jacket bullets). This is because the front of a hollow point bullet will flatten out after it hits it target, causing the bullet to do more damage. Since self defense with a firearm is a life or death situation, the person defending themselves will want to stop an attacker as quickly as possible. The additional frontal diameter a hollow point offers is more likely to hit an attacker in a way that causes them to stop right then and there, before the attacker can harm the victim further.
This greater potential to inflict injury or death is what causes some people to vilify hollow point bullets, but such an opinion fails to consider the life or death situation of self defense. A person, by definition of self defense or defense of another, is not justified in firing their gun at another human unless it truly is to save their own life or the life of another innocent victim. {emphasis added} Under these grave circumstances, a person is not only justified but also compelled to act, and when acting the innocent person who is defending themselves should have the best means of defense available. To use an analogy, saying that crime victims should not have access to hollow point bullets would be like saying that a crime victim must stop a home invader by using a butter knife instead of a butcher knife. Such an approach would favor the criminal who is in the wrong and out to harm an innocent. Furthermore, since criminals would ignore a hollow point ban (just as they ignore gun bans, and the laws against murder and robbery) the law abiding crime victim would be placed at a further disadvantage.

Hollow Point Bullets are Safer for Innocent Bystanders

Hollow point bullets are also safer for innocent bystanders, as a hollow point bullet is less likely to over penetrate and strike them. This is because the hollow point bullet will mushroom after hitting its target, and will therefore be less streamlined as it goes through its target. The result is that the hollow point bullet may not exit its target at all, or if it does exit it will do so at a much lower speed than a non hollow point bullet would. Even if the hollow point bullet does exit its target, it is now less able to penetrate walls or other surfaces, due to the way the front of the bullet flattened. Similarly, but to a lesser extent, the expanded hollow point bullet will also fly a shorter distance through the air, resulting in less likelihood of striking an innocent bystander.

http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2008/04/15/the-truth-about-hollow-point-bullets/

[Meiko]

31. It's simply a matter

of stopping an attacker as soon as possible, some types of ammunition are better than others at this. You shoot to kill, why else would you draw a weapon and use it. Just run away.

[Callisto32]

34. But that's the point.

If you are shooting someone, you should have already decided that the situation you are in requires damaging as much vital tissue as possible in as little time as possible to stop an attack as quickly as possible in order to prevent your own grievous bodily injury or death.

If that isn't the case, you shouldn't be shooting.

[Meiko]

28. Then

Shoooo.

[iverglas]

36. it ain't just you

Take a possibly criminal tragedy and make it all about the gunz. Common pattern.

I once had to read the details of the post mortem examinations done on the 14 women killed by Marc Lépine in the "Montreal massacre". I actually didn't make it all the way through. The descriptions of the paths travelled by bullets ricocheting around inside a body and the damage they did as they passed through ...

But the genuinely heartbreaking aspect was the listing of the clothing and personal effects with the bodies. One pair white socks, blue pullover sweater ...

Actual people, living and breathing and wearing white socks and carrying their books in a backpack, until the bullets did their work. The sort of thing that normal people weep when they read, no matter who the victim. Death in its matter-of-fact details isn't something that ordinary people generally deal in.

[Meiko]

48. Well said

It is unfortunate that it is necessary to make such examinations as the ones who have made. It is important though that we get to bottom of these crimes and to do so they deserve scrutiny.

[sarisataka]

50. Agreed

if we did not glorify death so much on TV and exposed more people to the gruesome, banal reality there may very well be less violence in the world

[Meiko]

71. The world is

violence, it is all around us. Watch a nature show sometime, extremely violent.

[sarisataka]

74. Nature shows I get

that shows the real world of violence. I am thinking more of the kind that show an idealized version where the hero/anti-hero does 'what was needed' and walks off into the sunset; or more likely into an expensive car

[Meiko]

80. It's everywhere

Movies, Video games. Far more than necessary I would think. But you know what? the producers and video game designers just give people what they want, or have they created a market and now they are exploiting it?

[sarisataka]

91. Some of both

I think.

I have watched many of the movies and own a game or two with an M rating and thought nothing of it. Now, being a parent and reading some studies about how impressionable our minds are,especially when young, I am having to reconsider my take. I may have been wrong to quickly dismiss any concerns.

[Clames]

26. I use...

...Magtech First Defense 165gr SCHP's in .45 Auto.

[melm00se]

32. a smart CCW holder

will use hollow points as they don't over penetrate.

FMJ ammo will go through an assailant, out the other side and keep on going then hitting God knows what afterwards.

[oneshooter]

35. The last time I had to shoot somebody I used 308, 150gr Ball ammo.

I was shooting a FN FAL. It was quite a few years ago.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Meiko]

45. That

will do it for sure.

[HALO141]

89. That'll leave a mark.

[oneshooter]

96. Yea, entry and exit, all 3 rounds.

[lastlib]

38. You must be one SICK individual

Trayvon Martin is DEAD. George Zimmerman KILLED him. And you're worried that he used a bullet that will give you and your fellow gun-nut creeps some bad PR. That's SICK!

[Meiko]

44. Once again

skippy you have it wrong. You are right about one thing though. Trayvon Martin is dead a Zimmerman killed him. That being said the caliber and type of ammo used in the killing is going to come up in the trial. We are merely speculating on what that combination might be based on the info we currently have.There is ne need to get all emotional about it, it's just forensics.

[rhett o rick]

64. I think the detachment needed to discuss the most efficient way to damage human tissue is

part of the machismo. The rationalization used is that some day someone may threaten them and they just want to be as efficient as possible in destroying the body tissue and organs.
I personally know some gun owners that just cant wait to be given the opportunity to show their manhood. I think that might have been Mr. Z's problem. The SYG laws certainly feed into that.

[gejohnston]

67. I think you have been

hanging out with Bill Frist too much. Did he mentor you in tele diagnosis?

[Meiko]

70. I can't speak for every gun owner

but the one's I know take gun ownership very seriously and consider it more "manly" to retreat rather then force a confrontation where they would be required to kill someone. As far as ammo selection it is a critical part of firearm operation and performance. Part of ammo selection is choosing the most efficient bullet design. The idea is to apply enough force stop the attacker and at the same time have ammo that will function properly in your gun. A gun that won't function with a certain type of ammo is useless. Ammunition that is too powerful can over penetrate and become a hazard to others.

There are gun owners out there that are packing a full load of attitude that is for sure and more likely than not it will come back to haunt them. Along with gun ownership comes responsibility and if a person can't see that and accept it maybe they shouldn't own guns and most certainly they shouldn't be carrying one.

[sarisataka]

75. I take great care in selecting my ammo

because if I am using it I have tried every other possibility that is feasible and have reached my last resort. I need to know it is as close to 100% reliable as anything made by man can be, exactly how it will place in regards to my sights and what it can be expected to do when it strikes the target.

There is no room for second best at that time.

[HALO141]

82. meh

Police use hollow points. That's where the discussion will probably end if it comes up at all. A lot of that sort of thing has to do with geography. If it had happened in the North East then, yeah, they would probably try to make a big deal about it.