For the anti-gun folks out there who rail against SYG laws

[shadowrider]

Would you, personally, and without regret, be the person who puts to death someone who hasn't been to trial yet but whom you consider guilty, based on media provided evidence (or lack thereof), if you had the chance?

Think Zimmerman
Think the caretakers in Alabama

Think anyone that uses SYG that you disagree with.

Would you?

[Vincardog]

1. No would you? The evidence free decision to kill anyone is why I oppose SYG Is that why you like it?

[gejohnston]

29. I am guessing you don't understand how it works

SYG is a self defense law. It is the opposite of Duty to Retreat. If someone is attacking you, pounding your head in the concrete, whatever, that is enough evidence to defend yourself.

[Vincardog]

39. If someone is attacking me I have the right to defend my self without SYG. What has that to do

with killing people without trial?

[shadowrider]

44. Hang out in this group, and you'll see my point

Many want Zimmerman dead, period.

My question stands. Would they personally kill him without a trial based on what they know right now.

[gejohnston]

45. Actually you kind don't without SYG

or is much more limited. The major difference is that SYG puts the burden of proof on the State. Without it, the burden of proof is on you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_retreat

what does SYG have to do with summary execution.

[Vincardog]

61. I think someone is confusing self-defense with deadly force

[gejohnston]

71. someone is sounding like a pompus ass

sometimes self defense involves or requires deadly force. If you seriously think I should punch it out with some heavy weight lifter, not happening.

[Vincardog]

73. I guess you just don't understand how it works.

[gejohnston]

75. Actually I do

and your inability to past one sentence tells me you don't.

[Vincardog]

77. MMMMMKay

[ScreamingMeemie]

2. What about those of us who are not necessarily anti-gun, but still rail against SYG laws???

Sorry, but the case ended for me when Zimmerman was told not to follow Martin (whom he admitted he was following). He followed Martin. I don't want the murderer put to death (and 2nd degree murder charges don't allow for that) but I do want to see him put away for a very long time. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Thank you.

[gejohnston]

30. that has nothing to do with SYG

is conventional wisdom is true, SYG does not apply and it is murder.
if Zimmerman's account is true, SYG does not matter because it would still be justifiable under Duty to Retreat.

[spin]

42. The SYG law in Florida was not written to allow pursuit and confront ...

In the Martin shooting, many experts feel the law will not apply as Zimmerman did follow Martin.

I believe that the law will be reworded to deny a suspect the chance to hide behind it in a situation similar to the one that occurred in Sanford.

I can't see any need to require a person to first retreat before using force to stop an individual who is in the process of attacking or is just about to. This can often give an attacker a significant advantage.

The level of force used should be appropriate to the situation. If deadly force is used, a reasonable person standing in the shoes of the person who used such force should agree that the threat from the attacker was sufficient to cause serious injury or death.

The law should not be interpreted so as to allow a person to initiate a confrontation, escalate it to the level where violence ensues and then use deadly force to stop the person he deliberately provoked.

In my opinion at this time with the information that I have, I believe Zimmerman is guilty. Still he deserves his day in court.

[Jumping John]

3. No, would you?

[jpak]

4. Zimmerman executed Trayvon Martin without a trial - so did the assholes in AL

yup

[AH1Apache]

9. Maybe he did, Maybe he didn't

unlike you and a few others here, we're waiting for the trial and facts to come out before we rush to judgement. People of your ilk just want to bypass the trial and go straight to the penalty phase. You sound just like those RW assholes who blame Pres. Obama for every little thing no matter what the facts say otherwise.

[jpak]

12. Zimmerman was judge, jury and executioner - Martin cried for help to save himself

Last edited Sat Apr 21, 2012, 06:08 PM - Edit history (1)

Zimmerman killed him anyway.

The 17 YO girl in AL was running away from the fish camp when she was shot - the shooters admitted to this.

yup

[shadowrider]

16. Are you saying you would, personally, kill the supposed bad guys before a trial?

[jpak]

18. Of course!

[AH1Apache]

23. And yet you rail against those that would defend themselves

and call us judge, jury, and executioner, just like another certain poster here. Wha a hypocrite.

[jpak]

25. Of course!

[AH1Apache]

22. More dishonesty from you

Why should I be surprised? The 17yo girl most definitely was not running away, she was hiding in the bushes and her 3 companions were burglarizing the cabins and they were armed with a rifle which is why their charges were upgraded to 1st degree burglary, The shooter had no idea she was in the bushes as it was dark and he couldn't see her.
Jeez Hoyt, I mean Jpak, you are making this way too easy.
As far as Martin crying for help, you've been corrected on that already and your repeatedly saying it most certainly doesn't make it true.
At least try to get the facts right instead of making shit up.

As I said before Jpak, you make this way to easy to refute your "facts"

[jpak]

26. So you're OK with dead kids who did nothing to deserve being killed by vigilantes?

[AH1Apache]

33. Show me where I said that.

Your depiction of that 17yo girl as an innocent bystander who was just running away is what caught my attention and how you so conveniently left out the part that she was with the 3 boys who were burglarizing the cabins with a rifle and that she was hiding in the bushes when shot. But we've come to expect those dishonest posts from you. BTW, AL law allows for what the men did.
The real tragedy here is that a young girl was shot because she choose to be at that place at that point in time, if she was where she had told her parents she would be, she would not have been shot.

[Downwinder]

28. Sure it wasn't a drug deal gone bad?

Right location to take a delivery. Two of those involved had histories of trafficking.

[Ecumenist]

31. Last time I checked, outside of a few countries in Asia, Drug Smuggling isn't a Capital crime.

[shadowrider]

32. That is EXACTLY why there is an investigation AND a trial (if it comes to that)

People far too often, on this board, hear media accounts (usually wrong) of what happened and believe it instantly (regardless any subsequent information - and if subsequent info doesn't fit their agenda, it's right-wing, NRA fear-mongering) if it means achieving a political agenda (revocation of SYG laws) with NO remorse for the victims. In the case of Zimmerman, there is remorse for Martin, but we haven't had a trial yet. Lots gonna come out in that thing that is not public knowledge. If the prosecution doesn't do a better job (than they did in the bail hearing), Zimmerman will walk.

[AH1Apache]

34. There is zero evidence of that.

According to the Police, there were several other cabins broken into that night. It's a tragedy that shouldn't have happened except for the fact that the 4 teens were not where they told their parents they would be. The men are not being charged at this time and I highly doubt they will be.

[jpak]

35. The girl in AL was shot in the back of the head - running away

She was not charged with any crime.

Two forensic audio experts say it's Martin's voice - not Zimmerman's.

apologist fail

try again

yup

[shadowrider]

36. One forensic expert said it's Martins voice, with 48% certainty

Sure is conclusive to me.

[AH1Apache]

38. Not according to Jpak

and if you disagree with him, your a "racist vigilante apologist".

[shadowrider]

46. Or a right-wing toter (Gospel according to Hoyt)

[jpak]

40. nonsense - it was not Zimmerman's voice

http://www.morrisdailyherald.com/2012/04/02/2-forensic-experts-say-its-not-george-zimmerman-crying-out-for-help-in-911-call/a4nhio7/

<snip>

After the Sentinel contacted Owen, he used software called Easy Voice Biometrics to compare Zimmerman’s voice to the 911 call screams.

“I took all of the screams and put those together, and cut out everything else,” Owen said.

The software compared that audio to Zimmerman’s voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he’d expect higher than 90 percent.

“As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it’s not Zimmerman,” Owen said, stressing that he could not conform the voice as Martin’s because he didn’t have a sample of the teenager’s voice to compare.

<more>

[shadowrider]

47. I didn't say it was Zimmermans voice. I said it was Martins voice at 48% certainty

which your post confirms.

Thanks for the backup..

[jpak]

49. They didn't analyze Martin's voice - they did not have a previous recording to compare it to

fail

yup

[shadowrider]

51. If they didn't analyze Martins voice, how can you say with certainty it wasn't Zimmerman?

Dude, you do you side more harm than good. Give it up.

[jpak]

53. Learn to read - the forensic experts compared Zimmerman's 911 call to the cries for help

It wasn't Zimmerman.

fail again

yup

[shadowrider]

57. 48% certainty it was Martin means it's 52% it was Zimmerman

or did your high school math say 48>52?

[jpak]

58. Read the article before you post silliness

yup

[AH1Apache]

62. You and I both know

that even if a forensic expert came out and said that an analysis of the recording showed a 99% certainty that the voice yelling for help was Zimmerman and 1% it was Trayvon, he would say, see, I told you so, it has to be Trayvon because Zimmerman is a "motherfucking racist asshole" who stalked and executed Trayvon.

[jpak]

63. Zimmerman is a "motherfucking racist asshole" who stalked and executed Trayvon.

just the facts

yup

[AH1Apache]

74. No, those are not facts,

those are jpak facts and we all know where you pulled those "facts" from.
It has been my experience that those that scream racist as often and as loud as you do are usually the racists.
There, how do you like me making a baseless accusation? Because thats what you have been doing here.

[shadowrider]

66. You learn well young grasshopper

[shraby]

82. The 48% indicated it was a male voice and nothing more.

the 98% was that it wasn't Zimmerman. He needs a sample of Martin's voice to check to see if it was Martin.
Where is the reading comprehension around here?

[shadowrider]

92. Reading comprehension includes taking things in context. I was replying to this post:

Star Member jpak (25,313 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
53. Learn to read - the forensic experts compared Zimmerman's 911 call to the cries for help

View profile
It wasn't Zimmerman.

fail again

yup

This poster, for a fact, said the voice wasn't Zimmerman. By inference, it was Martin.

==================

He then offered this as proof:

Star Member jpak (25,313 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
40. nonsense - it was not Zimmerman's voice

View profile
http://www.morrisdailyherald.com/2012/04/02/2-forensic-experts-say-its-not-george-zimmerman-crying-out-for-help-in-911-call/a4nhio7/

<snip>

After the Sentinel contacted Owen, he used software called Easy Voice Biometrics to compare Zimmerman’s voice to the 911 call screams.

“I took all of the screams and put those together, and cut out everything else,” Owen said.

The software compared that audio to Zimmerman’s voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he’d expect higher than 90 percent.

“As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it’s not Zimmerman,” Owen said, stressing that he could not conform the voice as Martin’s because he didn’t have a sample of the teenager’s voice to compare.

===

That statement indicates NO ONE KNOWS whose voice it was. In a situation which causes sheer terror (on either side), your voice will change. For him to say with "reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman" is irresponsible and painting the picture as he sees it especially since he can't confirm it's Martin either.

We have to wait for trial and get some FACTS before it can be declared, definitively, whose voice it is, and we may never know.

[AH1Apache]

48. You can keep repeating that all you want jpak

doesn't make it true, the fact is that they haven't established whose voice it is beyond a reasonable doubt, but we get it, if we disagree with you, we are "racist vigilante apologists". afuckingmazing

[AH1Apache]

37. She was with the 3 boys that were breaking into those cabins with a rifle

ergo that makes her just as guilty as those boys if they are convicted. She most certainly was hiding in the bushes and maybe she turned to run when the men showed up to investigate the breaking and entering noises they heard. Regardless, there was no vigilantism here despite what you say.

[jpak]

41. Hiding in the bushes is a capital crime?

what horseshit

yup

[AH1Apache]

43. Who said it's a capital crime

The men didn't even know she was there when they fired a warning shot, once again, if she had been where she told her parents she was going to be, this would not have happened.

Funny that you would place all the blame on the men but none on the 4 teens who were commiting felonies with a firearm.
That right there tells me all I need to know about your anti gun agenda.

[jpak]

52. Irresponsible shoot em up gunners - the girl was not charged with any crime

She just got shot in the back of the head by vigilante yahoos.

yup

[AH1Apache]

59. Unlike you, I deal in facts and your made up facts are just more bullshit

she was with the 3 other teens who were committing felonies which in turn makes her an accomplice whether you like it or not. At least admit that if she had been where she told her parents she would be, non of this would have happened.

[jpak]

64. see this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002585410

[WinniSkipper]

93. Would you like law enforcement to charge her

in her condition? I know you won't give a straight forward answer but I figured what the heck.

[jpak]

56. see this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002585410

[AH1Apache]

68. Ha Ha

you just proved my point, the 3 men saw what they thought were 3 grown men running away and fired warning shots to stop them, they never saw the girl.
Thank you for proving my point.
Once again, she never would have been shot if she had been where she told her parents she was going to be,
moral of the story, don't hang around with people doing felonies.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
The real tragedy is a 17yo girl was shot because she wasn't where she was supposed to be and all your hand wringing and moral outrage wont change that fact.

[jpak]

70. See this - the shooters were not "law abiders" they are criminals

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002590425#post4

yup

[AH1Apache]

78. See What?

You imply that they are criminals and then provide a link to an article that indicates that there will be no charges filed against them.
You just made my case, thank you.
Is this the backlash you are always talking about, because if it is, we'll take more of this kind of backlash and run with it.
Jpak, you are your own worse enemy.

[hlthe2b]

5. Now there's an irony..

Right... It is those who chose NOT to have a gun who want to take the law into their own hands. Yup, that's rich.

[Zookeeper]

6. Huh?

I'm not a fan of guns and am most definitely against SYG laws. I'm not sure why you think that would mean I want Zimmerman put to death, at all, much less before he has a fair trial. If he's guilty (which I believe he is), he should rot in jail for the rest of his life.

[shadowrider]

8. Hey, I'm just curious.

So many want justice before a trial (NBPP - Dead or Alive poster) I thought I'd ask if they'd be willing to off the guy before a trial, IF they were personally responsible to do so.

Nothing more, nothing less.

[jpak]

10. I'm curious - you consider schools filled with children "target rich environments"

wow

[shadowrider]

11. I do. Care to dispute it? (VT, Columbine)

[jpak]

21. That mentality just enables the killers

yup

[shadowrider]

79. So you can't dispute it. You just insinuate MY attitude enables killers, is that about right?

C'mon man, dispute my statement.

[wendylaroux]

7. It is tragedies like this

that make more people anti-gun.--Idiots with guns, + SYG don't work.

[digonswine]

13. I would think that most folks that do not like SYG-

don't like the death penalty.

[DanTex]

14. I'm not "anti-gun", but I support sane gun laws, and oppose SYG.

And, of course, I don't think anyone should be put to death without a trial.

First of all, I'm opposed to the death penalty. More important, I believe everyone deserves a trial.

And that's exactly the problem with SYG laws and the vigilanteism it encourages. Trayvon Martin didn't get a chance to stand in front of a jury for whatever crime George Zimmerman thought he was committing or about to commit.

[JoePhilly]

15. The only person in this discussion who sent an innocent person to their grave, was Zimmerman.

Martin was not charged, not arrested, he carried no weapon, he received no trial, and yet he's dead.

Zimmerman has been charged and arrested, and he'll get a trial.

Given those facts, what's your point exactly?

SYG laws are a great way to get people killed. You confront me. I stand my ground. Then you shoot me and claim that you felt threatened. I'm dead, with no trial. And now you demand due process for yourself.

The folks who are for laws like this must think we live in Tombstone AZ circa 1880.

[jpak]

17. SYG = dead men tell no tales law

yup

[Zookeeper]

19. +1. n/t

[shadowrider]

20. Tombstone, Arizona was actually quite law abiding with gun control laws

it's the areas in the "bad" parts of town that the murders occurred.

Now, with Zimmerman, would you execute him, personally, based on your understanding of the facts before he has a trial?

[JoePhilly]

24. Did I stutter? Did I say I would execute him with out a trial?

You've built a rather sad little straw-man. "OMG, people want to execute poor Zimmerman without a trial!!!" ... cue the scary music!!

Except no one has said that's what should happen.

He is getting the trial that he deserves. Too bad Martin didn't get one. You seem less concerned about that.

Meanwhile ... you do appear to be looking forward to a future America which looks much like the American west of the late 1880s.

If so ... you might want to try Somalia. My understanding is that everyone there is packing heat at all times, and if you feel threatened, and your quick enough ... you win every argument.

[shadowrider]

27. Let me calmly refute your points

"OMG, people want to execute poor Zimmerman without a trial!!!" ... cue the scary music!!

>>> Read the posts in this forum and on the latest page. That is certainly the feeling I get. (NBPP - Dead or Alive poster)

He is getting the trial that he deserves. Too bad Martin didn't get one. You seem less concerned about that.

>>> I'm concerned, just want all the facts before I make up my mind. The state affidavit was chewed up and spit out at the bail hearing when the guy that signed the damn thing couldn't answer a question about it.

Meanwhile ... you do appear to be looking forward to a future America which looks much like the American west of the late 1880s.

>>> The American west was quite tame, with gun control, compared to "civilized" eastern cities of the time. (Look it up, it isn't difficult).

If so ... you might want to try Somalia. My understanding is that everyone there is packing heat at all times, and if you feel threatened, and your quick enough ... you win every argument.

>>> Somalia has stringent gun control. No one is allowed to have weapons. It's what happens when law-abiding people are denied the right to defend themselves. The only people packing heat are the bad guys who, by chance, happen to be quick enough, especially against unarmed opposition.

[JoePhilly]

50. LOL

Its a "feeling you get" ... too funny.

Your concern is not for the dead kid. That's my point. You are concerned that annoymous people on the internet are upset about Zimmerman's action.

Side note ... I watched the bail hearing live. So please don't try to claim that the officer was unable to answer a question about it. That's a lie. He answered every question. You might not have liked his answers, but he answered every question. And, then he alos provided added details when questioned by the prosecution. Were you asleep for that part?

And you still think the old west was fun place? I like the comparison to eastern cities. Who cares? Why would be want to go back to those times?

And then Somalia ... there is almost no law in Somalia, and certainly no justice, but there are lots of guns. Which in and of itself is not a bad thing ... but when there is no effective legal system, no justice system ... then you have people ensuring "justice" as they see fit.

Which brings us back to Zimmerman and Martin. The 9/11 calls are fairly clear. Zimmerman is "paroling" the neighborhood. He's concerned about various thefts. He sees Martin and decides Martin is "suspicious". He follows Martin, even after the police tell him not to.

Now Martin is dead. Zimmerman admits he killed him.

Only one of them will get to attend a trial and get to tell his side of the story.

[AH1Apache]

54. Bullshit

I watched it too and the prosecution got its ass handed to them. The lead investigator was clearly not prepared for the cross by the defense attorney, hell, he didn't even bring his notes.
He contradicted a few statements he wrote in the affidavit which clearly helps the defense.

[JoePhilly]

67. Actually no.

This was a BAIL HEARING ... not the trial. At a bail hearing, the prosecution does not have to lay out every piece of evidence. And the affidavit you refer to is a MINOR part of the investigation.

The Defense attorney kept trying to get the officer on the stand to describe minor details of the investigation, details that would not be known to him because they had been collected by other investigators. Why? Because he wants to get bail, that's it.

You claim there were "contradictory statements" ... really, which ones? Surprised you don't indicate specifically what major issues occurrred. Wait ... I got it ... the word "confronted" ... right?

Poor Zimmerman. Still alive. Going to get a trial. Get's bail, which most legal experts thought would happen.

[shadowrider]

72. Poor Zimmerman. Still alive. (Your words). Would you prefer he wasn't and would you personally

push the switch to kill him before the trial, or is your attitude, "He's guilty before he goes on trial and is found guilty again"?

[JoePhilly]

83. blah, blah, blah.

Already told you what I think about him being executed. Said no. More than once.

Once more ... he's getting the trial that he deserves. As it should be. And that is where his innocence or guilt will be judged.

Apparently, if you had your way ... there would be no trial because the dead can't argue against the living.

[AH1Apache]

80. Just about every legal analyst agreed that the prosecution got taken to the woodshed yesterday

I think I will believe them and what I saw with my own eyes.

[JoePhilly]

84. Really ... I saw many describe how the prosecution decided not to tip its hand because

they are waiting to see if the Defense decides to try to use the SYG law as part of their defense. Apparently, the defense is considering a motion to ask the judge to throw the case OUT using SYG.

So rather than feed the defense info, the prosecution is waiting to see where the defense decides to go on that point. Most experts agree that Zimmerman has little chance of using that line because he did not stand his ground, he followed Martin. That's clear in the phone records.

So the prosecution is going to let the defense play out their various paths to getting the case thrown out BEFORE an actual trial can occur.

I will say this ... Zimmerman may walk ... although the original homicide officer wanted to charge him, the initial prosecutor ignored that investigator ... and so lots of the forensic evidence may not have been full collected or handled with the care that should be used.

Which, regardless of how the trial turns out, is yet another strike against the SYG laws.

A full forensic analysis would be able to indicate the relative positions of the two men at the time of the shooting.

I think Zimmerman's best hope is that very little forensic evidence was collected. If so, then its his word against the dead kid.

[gejohnston]

86. that is not my understanding of Florida law.

Sunshine laws are a big deal here. Assuming Casey Anthony would have been convicted (since the DA could not even establish cause of death...) it would have been a mistrial because the DA with held exculpatory evidence.

they are waiting to see if the Defense decides to try to use the SYG law as part of their defense. Apparently, the defense is considering a motion to ask the judge to throw the case OUT using SYG.

That is standard procedure in any claim of self defense in Florida.

So rather than feed the defense info, the prosecution is waiting to see where the defense decides to go on that point. Most experts agree that Zimmerman has little chance of using that line because he did not stand his ground, he followed Martin. That's clear in the phone records.

In Florida, neither side can with hold evidence or witnesses. Based on the information given, but everything hinges if Zimmerman was attacked after he retreated as he claims.

So the prosecution is going to let the defense play out their various paths to getting the case thrown out BEFORE an actual trial can occur.

What?

I will say this ... Zimmerman may walk ... although the original homicide officer wanted to charge him, the initial prosecutor ignored that investigator ... and so lots of the forensic evidence may not have been full collected or handled with the care that should be used.

No he won't. I seriously don't think he will get a fair trial. Juries don't appreciate getting death threats (like Casey Anthony case) or being falsely accused of being racist.

Which, regardless of how the trial turns out, is yet another strike against the SYG laws.

How so?

A full forensic analysis would be able to indicate the relative positions of the two men at the time of the shooting.

Yeah

I think Zimmerman's best hope is that very little forensic evidence was collected. If so, then its his word against the dead kid.

His best hope is the historical record of trial by media. The conventional wisdom pushed out by the media is almost always wrong.

[JoePhilly]

87. I did not say that they (prosecution) would withold evidence at trial. Re-read what I wrote.

The prosecution is under no obligation to describe the APPROACH they will use to connect the various pieces of evidence at the bail hearing.

You need to separate two thoughts.

1) Specific pieces of evidence, those must be shared.
2) Prosecution's full and complete theory of how the events unfolded. The prosecution does not have to declare this at a bail hearing.

For instance, let's take the Prosecution's position on Zimmerman's "state of mind". The prosecution does not need to reveal this prior to the start of the actual trial. And they are certainly not required to reveal it, in total, at a bail hearing.

As for the potential that he "walk" ... if you read up the thread, you will find that my guess is that he will be convicted, but of something less than Murder 2 ... maybe manslaughter.

The strike against SYG laws I refer to is the potential for law enforcement officials to short cut the immediate collection of forensics at the time the event occurs. As a simple example ... Zimmerman was not tested for drugs or alcohol, but the dead kid was. Both should have been done. Another ... did the cops take Zimmerman's clothing? Martin's blood might be on those. Did they take the gun and test it? Apparently not. We'll find out the extent to which standard procedures for a homicide were or were not followed.

As for the media impact ... sure ... and OJ was innocent ... the media is irrelevant. They only get interested when they might get some ratings. The only thing I think they have been right about so far, is that Zimmerman needed to be arrested and charged so there would be an actual investigation and a trial.

Which is more than the Martin kid got.

[gejohnston]

89. The media has this much power

and OJ's trial was an exercise in stupidity. I'm a white guy from Wyoming and I would have voted the same way because the reasonable doubt. I think he did it, but you have stupid prosecutors, racist cops driving around the city with blood vials that should be in SID custody, shit happens.

You are assuming forensic evidence was not collected.
How do you know tests were not done on Zimmerman?
Yes they took the gun, the fired round was still in the chamber. That meant someone was holding the slide, preventing it from ejecting the empty casing.
I have no idea if they took the clothing

And Richard Jewel was really the Olympic bomber too. Oh wait, it turned out to be some Operation Rescue asshole that bombed an abortion clinic earlier.

To be honest, the media should have STFU.

[JoePhilly]

90. Again, the media is irrelevant.

I'm a white guy from Philly, and I agree that the cops screwed up the OJ trial, far more than the media did.

I did not say that no forensic evidence was collected ... I said that I suspect that everything that should have been collected was not. Its already been reported that tests for alcohol and drugs were performed on Martin and that they were NOT done on Zimmerman. That alone suggests that they did not do all of the forensics that should be done.

At least you admit that you don't know if they took Zimmerman's clothes. I hope they did, but I have yet to hear any report that they actually did.

Since I did not mention Richard Jewel, I'm not sure why you mention him. The cases are not similar in anyway. Zimmerman killed Martin. He admits to it. No one denies it. Jewel was accused of planting the bomb, and trying to act like a hero. The media was wrong, and he was exonerated.

See the difference there? There will be no Eric Rudolph who is found to have actually killed Martin. For your Jewel comparison to make sense, there would need to be some question as to who killed Martin. There is none. Zimmerman killed Martin.

Finally, I'm not sure how you get the media to STFU. The media exists to talk. Although I did enjoy a recent clip in which Bill O'Reilly screamed that a judge should order that a GAG order imposed ... even though no one had been charged or arrested at the time ... that was pretty funny.

[gejohnston]

91. the point is trial by media

the media, other than inaccurately described the SYG law, NBC doctored the 911 tapes, etc. Oh yeah, why does his media photos show him lighter than he actually is? Use police photo of low quality mug shot camera or photo "burning"? In OJ, they used "dodging" to make OJ's skin look darker than it actually is.
I don't think Jewel was so much "acting like a hero" as he was being a responsible member of the community. Unless you think the civilized and responsible thing for him to leave the bomb sitting there. He found the bomb. He told the cops about it. In fact, he was doing his fucking job as a security guard employed by the college. So, he was not some "Billy Bob trying to be a hero".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Jewell
I was using him and Casey Anthony as examples of trial by media.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_by_media
I tend to think the media did that to Zimmerman. They certainly did that to the Florida law.

[shadowrider]

69. Didn't the prosecutor say "I didn't know we were starting the trial today?"

They were totally unprepared and it showed. They do this at trial, Zimmerman walks.

[JoePhilly]

85. Re-read your 2 sentences again and find the flaw.

The prosecutor was correct ... the "trial" did not start the other day. That was a BAIL HEARING, and they are not the same thing.

Then you go on to say ... "They do this at trial, Zimmerman walks." .... demonstrating again that the hearing the other day was NOT part of the trial. Just as the prosecutor said.

[shadowrider]

55. He never denied he shot him. Why don't we wait for the trial or do you want to execute

Zimmerman now?

Yes or no will do.

[JoePhilly]

76. No execution, not now, and not after the trial either.

Do I Need to type slower for you?

I mean, I think we covered that already .... but I'll go farther.

I suspect that Zimmerman will end up being found guilty of manslaughter or something lower than Murder 2.

He did not know Martin. So he didn't "plan" to kill him. But it does appear that his actions were reckless. And a court will get to decide that.

Zimmerman decided that he was an extension of law enforcement. He decided that he could follow Martin even after the police told him not to. Zimmerman is larger, armed, and has little to fear. Based on his call to teh police, he's also unhappy that these criminals keep getting away. Martin is smaller, and he called his girlfriend because he was scared of the unknown man following him.

All of this is known, and undisputed.

Zimmerman is the one pushing the events forward. And fortunately, he's gong to get the trial he deserves.

[gejohnston]

60. about Somalia

the local warlords make the law. Gun laws or lack of is not really an issue there because the average person can't afford one. So, it is really more like feudal Europe than Mad Max.

[Fresh_Start]

65. dont believe in death penalty

which is one of the reason I think there should be many fewer guns in the hands of people without self-control

[doc03]

81. I support the Castle Doctrine but I think the SYG law is bad

and should be repealed. As far as Zimmerman I just don't know. I tend to believe the police didn't have the
evidence to charge Zimmerman. Then with all media attention the state politically had to charge him. We just don't know what evidence the police have, we don't know who started the fight, we don't know if Zimmerman actually had the injuries he claims or who was yelling for help. Hopefully the jury can sort it out. Myself I think there is enough evidence to clear Zimmerman but the state has to bring it to trial to prove their case. I have no problem with that
we need to know what actually happened. There will be some that won't believe the outcome whichever way it comes out though.

[ileus]

88. of course....rude toters deserve to die...they're polluting society.

[Hoyt]

94. Another "if I shoot an unarmed kid with the gun I carry," Don't condemn me post.