Georgia gun rights group wants suit over stand-your-ground law dismissed

[jpak]

http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-government/georgia-gun-rights-group-1423028.html

The gun rights group GeorgiaCarry.org has asked that a lawsuit challenging Georgia's so-called stand-your-ground law be thrown out. If the federal lawsuit continues, the group wants to intervene to oppose it.

GeorgiaCarry asked Friday that the suit be dismissed, arguing that the Rev. Markel Hutchins, who filed it, did not have standing to bring suit because he had not been harmed by the law covering justifiable homicide.

"Instead, he vaguely claims that the so-called 'stand your ground law' exposes him to ‘risk of arbitrary enforcement,'" GeorgiaCarry wrote. "He only speculates that he may someday experience the effects of the statute."

Hutchins filed the federal lawsuit April 9, claiming the Georgia statute is vague about "what actions would create ‘reasonable belief' that deadly force is necessary." He said he was filing it on behalf of all Georgians, especially those who might suffer from the law because of racial profiling.

<more>

racist vigilantes are such cowards

yup

[Hoyt]

1. Figures. GeorgiaCarry is sponsored by a bunch of gun manufacturers and gun stores.

Promoting more friggin guns in the good ole right wing tradition.

[AH1Apache]

2. And another Hoytism to add to the growing collection

Hey Hoyt, got those links yet of what you claimed I said?
I'm still waiting.

[shadowrider]

6. Well Hoyt, what are you personally doing to overturn SYG in Georgia?

Donating?
Canvassing?
Calling?
Contacting legislators?

Or are you busy disarming lawful CCW people?

[AH1Apache]

3. Where the fuck do you come up with this crap

Racist vigilantes? Prove it and I don't mean just your "feelings", I mean with statements that group has made that would be deemed racist. I'll wait.

[jpak]

4. Zimmerman

yup

[AH1Apache]

7. You don't know that yet

or are you one of those that has already convicted him without the benefit of a trial?
Hell, why even have a trial, let's just go straight to the penalty phase and put him away for good, is that what you and others want?
Myself and others here have said, wait for the trial and facts to come out and from what I saw yesterday at his bond hearing, the prosecution got their asses handed to them.

[jpak]

9. His 911 tapes say otherwise - "black" "up to no good" "on something"

racist vigilante apologist fail

yup

[AH1Apache]

10. Are you fucking serious

Your calling me a racist vigilante apologist?
Prove it or apologize and retract your post.

[jpak]

12. but you claim I am "dishonest" - too bad

yup

[AH1Apache]

13. When you say shit like the backlash is here

and that I'm a racist vigilante apologist, then yeah you are being dishonest. I noticed you didn't prove that I'm a racist vigilante apologist, either prove it or apologize and retract.

[jpak]

14. Defend Zimmerman - no apology from me

nope

[AH1Apache]

16. More of the same old same old from jpak

show me one post where I defended him, just as I challenged Hoyt to do and never got a reply from him, so I'll challenge you to show one post where I have defended his actions that night. Once again, prove it or retract your vile statement.
You know what, never mind, everyone here can see what your all about, you've shown that time and time again.
Have a nice life.

[shadowrider]

11. He said "black" in direct response to a question. He didn't volunteer it.

[jpak]

15. If Trayvon was white - he would be alive today

yup

[AH1Apache]

17. And you know this how?

Why don't you prove it.

[jpak]

20. He is black and dead - shot by a racist vigilante who is free and alive today

yup

[AH1Apache]

24. Do you actually believe the crap you post?

How do you know he's a "racist vigilante"? Even Travon Martin's parents have said this isn't about race and everything I've learned about the man suggests he is no racist, so where do you come up with this racist vigilante bullshit?
Oh yeah, I forgot, all gun owners are racist vigilantes, right?

[jpak]

27. Trayvon was shot while screaming for help

Hunted down and killed by a racist vigilante.

yup

[AH1Apache]

30. They don't know for sure who was yelling for help.

Good lord, learn about the case before making yourself look like a complete fool.

[jpak]

34. His mother said it was her son yelling for help - after being hunted down by an armed racist

vigilante motherfucker who is alive and free today.

yup

[AH1Apache]

38. Of course his mother is going to say that

but the investigators have said they're not sure who was yelling for help that night.
Your last paragraph says it all about you.

[oneshooter]

40. So you have convicted him, without a trial.

Does he get an apeal? Or is it straight to the gallows with him?
I suppose you also want to pull the handle.

Oneshooter

[shadowrider]

43. And his father said it wasn't him.

[jpak]

52. Really? Post the link.

[shadowrider]

57. Tell you what Jpak

I won't do your homework for you. I get no grade and you'd disavow it anyway. But, for the sake of argument, why don't you find it and post your homework.

When you find the quote, I'll give you an A.

You still haven't said what you do for the anti-gun cause besides post online and make unintelligent snarky remarks. What DO you do?

[sylvi]

51. It's an empty exercise

It's an empty exercise, trying to discuss facts, evidence and logic with someone at the mercy of magical thinking. The person you're addressing is another one of the true believers in the Church Of Zimmerman Guilt™, and no amount of evidence (or lack thereof) this side of hell will make them any more objective. And like all good fundamentalists, if you disagree with them or ask for proof of something, they'll label you as being on the "other side".

[shadowrider]

55. First post I've seen from you in this group

but you have it nailed.

[sylvi]

65. I've posted here a few times before

Enough to know what we're dealing with here.

[AH1Apache]

58. Don't forget "racist vigilante apologist"

But you are 100% correct and your post nails it perfectly.

[ileus]

19. Not if he'd attacked Zimmerman

[jpak]

21. He was racially profiled, hunted down and shot by Zimmerman

yup

[ileus]

22. That's not what I heard.

I read he attacked zimmerman...

and zimmerman was lucky enough to have his chp and get off a defensive shot. I suppose we'll have to wait for the facts...

[jpak]

23. The 911 tapes say otherwise

yup

[shadowrider]

25. What snippets, exactly, of this NON 911 call indicate that?

You do know he didn't call 911, right? He called a regular phone number and was connected to a CIVILIAN dispatcher. You know that, right?

[gejohnston]

53. Did you hear the NBC ones?

If so, part of the conversation was edited out. The full conversation did not show profiling.

[TPaine7]

56. See my post 50. If the transcript I relied on is accurate, Zimmerman's words give him away. n/t

[AH1Apache]

26. This just gets better and better.

Keep it up jpak, everyone here can see just how uninformed you really are.

[AH1Apache]

28. Show us the proof that he racially profiled Trayvon.

[jpak]

32. OK

<snip>

Zimmerman 911 Call Transcript – Trayvon Martin

Zimmerman:

We’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy. It’s Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.

This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about. [00:25]

911 dispatcher:

OK, is he White, Black, or Hispanic?

Zimmerman:

He looks black.

<more>

Zimmerman:

Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.

And he’s a black male.

<more>

[ileus]

35. plus he had a mean gun...

[AH1Apache]

36. Youv'e proven nothing

where is the racial profiling? So far all youv'e done is contradicted your earlier statements. In your own words
Massive fail


yup

[jpak]

39. Why is a teenager "suspicious" or "no good'" and "on something" walking back home with candy?

because he was black

yup

[AH1Apache]

41. This gets funnier and funnier

You obviously have no fucking clue about what your spouting off about, all you can say is "racist vigilante" or motherfucking racist vigilante.
You have zero credibility on this or just about any other subject when it involves firearms, self defense laws.
Keep it up, we all needed a good laugh today.

[ileus]

42. racist guns kill people...donjaknow

[TPaine7]

50. I must agree with you here, jpak

Zimmerman:

We’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy.

...

This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about.

...

Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.

And he’s a black male.

What is suspicious about walking home? What made this person look like he was "on drugs"?

I can understand the looking around issue—given the context of recent robberies. Trayvon was probably looking around because he was new to the neighborhood, but there was no way for Zimmerman to know that, so I'll give him that.

But walking is not suspicious, and I would love to hear his explanation of why Trayvon looked like he was on drugs. Could it be that he was a young black male, and therefore automatically looked "like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something"?

That interpretation is strongly backed up by Zimmerman's other statement:

Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.

And he’s a black male.

What is the connection between hands in his waistband and being a black male? Hands in the waistband is police speak for "posing a deadly threat giving me justification to shoot." Zimmerman wasn't sophisticated enough to leave out the rest of the story—and he's a black male. Gasp! The "and" in this context shows definitively that he thinks these facts are related.

Zimmerman clearly thought that having one's hands in one's pockets—a common enough human posture—combined with the condition of being a black male was especially noteworthy and dangerous. (Trayvon's hands were not in his waisband—he was unarmed so there was no reason to put his hands there. If anything, his hands were in his pockets.)

Zimmerman profiled.

Now if you think that someone is armed and dangerous, and you think that they are on drugs and you think they are up to no good—but the only crimes they are commiting are walking and looking around, what kind of fool do you have to be to chase them (assuming that it's not your job?)

Trayvon, posed no imminent threat to anyone. Only a fool (or a person doing a tough and dangerous job) chases an armed, high person who is up to no good.

Zimmerman's behaviour was stupid in the extreme.

[PavePusher]

59. Youv'e edited out the portion where the police asked for identifying information.

That is, at best, not fully intellectually honest.

[TPaine7]

62. I think you are misreading my point. It is a different one from the fake point made by editing on TV

and I am, at least by my own conscience, completely intellectually honest. I take my intellectual honesty VERY seriously indeed.

My point is that Zimmerman connected race with hands in the waistband. No one prompted him to do so. The police request for the race of the person in question was over. Zimmerman brought it back up in the context of hands in the waistband—it was part of a threat analysis: He's coming towards me, he has his hand in his waistband and he's a black male!

One of these things is not like the other—unless you're profiling.

Combined with the up to no good and on drugs speculations, this paints a textbook case of profiling. Who first mentioned race is superficial. The fact that Zimmerman percieved race is the only relevant issue to the speculations of Martin being up to no good and on drugs.

The fact that Zimmerman explicitly tied race to an alleged hand in waistband is extremely strong evidence of profiling.

None of what I am saying rests to the slightest degree on who mentioned race first.

[PavePusher]

74. I'm not seeing the connection you claim (hands in waistband=black).

I see two seperate descriptive statements, in response to a police query for information. If you are seeing an implication of racism there, I think you are looking too hard in the wrong place.

[TPaine7]

75. My point was certainly not "hands in waistband=black"; that would be nonsense.

My point was that "hands in waistband" and "black male" are related in Zimmerman's mind, things of the same type. Of course they are not equal, PavePusher. Give me a little credit. What have I ever said that made you think I would make a point like that?!

Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.

And he’s a black male.

I read those as being related in Zimmerman's mind. The "And" starting the second seems to indicate that black maleness and hands in waistband are related somehow. As in

Yeah, now the dog is coming toward me. It's growling.

And it's foaming at the mouth.

Growling implies a threat. Foaming at the mouth magnifies the threat. But growling and foaming at the mouth are, of course, not the same thing.

[sylvi]

63. Context

[quote]911 dispatcher:

OK, is he White, Black, or Hispanic?

Zimmerman:

He looks black.

911 dispatcher:

Did you see what he was wearing?

Zimmerman:

Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. He wore jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring.

<more>

Zimmerman:

Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.

And he’s a black male.

911 dispatcher:

How old would you say he is?

Zimmerman:

He’s got something on his shirt. About like his late teens.

911 dispatcher:

Late teens?

Zimmerman:

Uh, huh.[/quote]


Given the context of the conversation with the dispatcher, it looks like Zimmerman's statement, "And he’s a black male", could have just as likely been confirming a part of the description the dispatcher was asking for. At first, he states he "looks" like a black male, which would seem to indicate he doesn't know for sure. Then, as Martin turns and approaches ("Yeah, now he’s coming toward me&quot he gets a closer, frontal view making his race clearer.

[TPaine7]

66. Possibly

It's possible.

It's also possible that he was trying to get the police to take this seriously—he's high, he's armed and he's black.

One of these is not like the other unless you are profiling.

[shadowrider]

67. You and I normally agree on a lot o things but on this we disagree

He didn't say he was high. He didn't say he was armed, he did say he was black (kinda give the police a description of who to look for when they get there).

[TPaine7]

69. He didn't say that Trayvon was high or armed, he said things designed to give the impression

that he was probably high or armed or otherwise up to no good. He conveyed the idea that he thought Trayvon was high, armed, etc.

"I see a man walking" is not a rational reason to call the police. Either he actually thought there was something wrong with Trayvon being there—high, armed, up to no good, black?—or he was a fool harrassing the police dispatcher.

If he actually believed what he wanted the dispatcher to believe he should have left him to the police.

[sylvi]

71. Also

If you listen to the actual audio recording, there is a pause between, "He's got his hand in his waist band", and, "And he's a black male", that makes it two separate sentences, the second one ending in a higher tone making it sound almost like a question or something informative rather than expressing concern. I'm not a voice analyst so I don't really have the technical vocabulary to describe it, but if you listen you'll see what I mean.

[TPaine7]

72. I grant that it's not necessarily as definitive as I first thought after reading it.

i haven't heard the tape (recently) so I agree that the inflections of his voice could shape my understanding of his intent.

I am not bound to side with either Zimmerman or Martin, but I am bound to what I believe I see in the evidence. Thank you for your evidence based argumentation. I'll have to listen to the tapes again.

I still think that chasing someone who you suspect is on drugs, up to no good and armed is stupid in the extreme, at least if you haven't seen them commit a crime and you don't reasonably believe a serious crime is imminent. (And you're not doing your job, of course.)

[sylvi]

73. I have no side either

I have no side either. Like you, I'm sure, I just want to see justice done.

Zimmerman may be everything he's accused of, I don't know. But I'd rather discuss the case based on facts and evidence rather than supposition, emotion and political framing. Plus, given my anal-retentive nature, I like a good argument on details.

I appreciate your civil responses.

[shadowrider]

64. That was said AFTER the dispatcher asked him the race of the guy he was following

Now, if something happened to you, and you called the police to chase them, wouldn't you give a description so the cops know who to look for?

[TPaine7]

68. Yes it was said after. Quite a while after the issue of race had been addressed.

Telling the dispatcher his race in the context of a question on race is one thing.

Reminding the dispatcher of race in the context of a comment designed to indicate that the person is probably armed is another animal altogether.

Saying that he's so tall and this race and this heft is totally reasonable, especially when answering questions. Saying (in so many words) that he's coming toward me, he's armed and don't forget he's a black male is different.

One of these things—moving toward me, armed, a black male—is not like the other. Unless you're profiling.

[PavePusher]

76. People often repeat themselves when making reports to police. Stress does that to people.

I think your assumption of "designed" is giving Z far too much credit. I've seen no evidence that he's that intelligent or coniving.

[TPaine7]

77. While I have already conceded that my reading might be wrong in some respects,

I don't think that it takes a lot of intelligence to realize that "hands at the waistband" is a way to imply that the person is a threat if you hang around and idolize cops and aspire to one. Oh, and your father (grandfather?) is a judge, so it's easy to believe that you've hung around the legal world since childhood.

There are lots of cops who aren't the sharpest pencils in the drawer but who know very well to claim that the suspect reached for his waistband in order to justify their shooting him. It's not rocket science.

It's extremely simple if you have the right exposure.

[gejohnston]

49. I doubt it.

He would be alive if Zimmerman stayed in the car.

[TPaine7]

54. It may be true that race played a definitive role; see post 50.

Zimmerman's own words betray him.

[gejohnston]

60. could be, but

after reading about the NBC edits...................... that is part of why I'm having a tough time with this one.
http://www.abc-7.com/story/17356505/source-nbc-producer-fired-over-zimmerman-911-call

http://www.mrctv.org/videos/jon-stewart-rips-nbc%E2%80%99s-dishonest-zimmerman-911-edit-%E2%80%98you-screwed-up%E2%80%99

[TPaine7]

70. The NBC edits are quite irrelevant to my point n/t

[shadowrider]

5. I need a good laugh and watching you and Hoyt on the same thread is fascinating entertainment

[AH1Apache]

8. It's really quite fascinating

two of the most dishonest posters on the same thread.
I love it

[ileus]

45. Hoyte hasn't accused anyone of something he made up yet has he?

[AH1Apache]

47. Give him time

I'm sure it's coming

[ileus]

18. Let's hope it's tossed out...now is not the time to go backwards.

[shadowrider]

29. You're right. How about this racist vigilante incident that you have yet to weigh in on

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117232198

4 black kids executed a hispanic guy (Who, by the way, didn't resist, didn't fight and did what told). Where's your outrage over this?

Racist vigilantes indeed.

[AH1Apache]

31. No outrage from jpak

It doesn't fit his agenda.

[ileus]

33. That's fine...the good guys were getting revenge for the zimmerman shooting.

[jpak]

37. That was a robbery - not a racist lynch mob

fail

yup

[AH1Apache]

44. Wow

just wow
So its ok because it wasn't racially motivated?
I can't believe you just said that, oh wait a minute, yes I can.
So tell us jpak, where was the "racist lynch mob" in the Zimmerman case?
You see where this is going? You've really shown your true colors here, not that we haven't known all along what your true colors are
but this is just breathtaking.
Your total ignorance of this case is just beyond the pale believable.

[ileus]

46. you know, carbon footprint reduction program....

save the earth...

[shadowrider]

48. I see. So a guy is executed, did not stand his ground, did not fight, and no outrage from you.

He did exactly what you want everyone else to do. And he died.

You get more ridiculouser and ridiculouser every day.

[spin]

61. A robbery that ended up as a murder ...

there's a big difference between a robbery and a murder.