Tucson Survivors Challenge the NRA: Stand With Us for Commonsense Gun Laws

[jpak]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/patricia-maisch/tucson-shooting-gun-control_b_1437225.html

Co-written with Colonel (ret.) Bill Badger and Mavy Stoddard

We are three survivors of the January 8th, 2011 shooting in Tucson, Arizona and we are a diverse group of real, patriotic Americans. We are a Republican, an Independent and a Democrat, and we strongly support the second amendment. We are retired Army Colonel Bill Badger, a gun owner who taught his children and grandchildren to hunt; Mavy Stoddard, also a gun owner who taught her four daughters how to shoot; and, Patricia Maisch, small business owner.

We are some of the too many faces of gun violence in this country.

Gun violence prevention is a deeply personal issue for each of us. That's why we traveled to St. Louis this past weekend -- where the NRA held its annual convention -- to ask the NRA leadership to join our efforts to pass commonsense gun laws and to help prevent future tragedies. As gun owners ourselves, we know that we can honor our great nation's heritage of gun ownership and hunting while still taking sensible steps to strengthen our gun laws to help prevent others from suffering the same horrors we've endured. For example, we should require a background check for every gun sale. And we must repeal the tragic "Shoot First" laws that the NRA leadership and their lobbyists have pushed for, and passed, in 25 states.

Our lives were changed forever by needless gun violence. Words cannot describe the horror -- the death and bloodshed -- that we witnessed that morning. Six good Americans were taken from us, murdered by a young man with a gun, that horrific day: Dorothy Morris, Dorwan Stoddard, Phylis Schneck, Federal Judge John Roll, Gabe Zimmerman, and beautiful, little nine-year-old Christina-Taylor Green are forever gone. Thirteen others, including Congresswoman Gabby Giffords, were injured. Shot on the sidewalk of our local grocery store by a young man that should never have had a gun.

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[AH1Apache]

1. Shoot first?

I guess that's the new talking point for the gun control crowd.
I would strongly support NICS being opened up to private sellers as long as it is only a sale/no sale.
Many of us here have stated our support for this.
People who say "sensible gun laws" are the ones who really raise a red flag in my mind.

[Cirque du So-What]

18. Would 'nonsensical gun laws' be preferable?

Perhaps 'no gun laws?' Maybe you'd take the middle road and choose 'toothless gun laws.'

[gejohnston]

19. Works for Vermont

strict gun laws doesn't do much for DC or USVI. Come to think of it, they don't do that much for vary many countries either.
"sensible" and "common sense" are never defined. When asked, I usually get no answer or a stupid answer (because it already is law, or a technology that does not exist.)

[bongbong]

24. Yawn

The old "laws don't matter" NRA talking point.

GREAT logic! People break speeding laws all the time. Better get rid of 'em! I'm sure highway safety will be better than ever!

[AH1Apache]

34. Here's a novel approach

how about the more that 30,000 gun laws now on the books being enforced instead of being plea bargained.

We certainly don't need more gun laws.

[bongbong]

2. Shoot first

A very apt phrase reflecting the reality of SYG laws being pushed by the right-wing.

[AH1Apache]

4. Whatever you say dude.

[bongbong]

12. Thanks for agreeing with me

Maybe you've overcome the NRA brainwashing.

[Lizzie Poppet]

7. "Apt?"

[bongbong]

10. Don't worry

I know what it means.

[Cirque du So-What]

16. Are you sure YOU know what 'apt' means?

Something apt is perfectly appropriate, clever and well-suited to the matter at hand.

http://www.vocabulary.com/definition/apt

If that ain't good enough, look it up in your Funk'n'Wagnalls.

[Lizzie Poppet]

17. Positive.

Thus I don't employ it in a misleading, factually-challenged manner...

[bongbong]

22. Nor I

Yup.

[Meiko]

9. The SYG law

in Arizona has nothing to do with what happened in Tucson.

[bongbong]

13. Yes

And I'm sure no future murders will either. At least that's what the NRA tells me.

[Meiko]

15. I am not talking about

some imaginary magic land. I stated a fact.

[bongbong]

21. Magic lands

> some imaginary magic land.

The imaginary magic land is the one where SYG laws don't allow some cold-blooded murderers to go scot-free.

[gejohnston]

25. I don't see anyone going scot free

You think Zimmerman is going free? No.

[bongbong]

27. Hmm.

> I don't see anyone going scot free

You gotta look closer. Zimmerman WAS going to go free until there was a huge outcry.

Your Talking Points are BEYOND easy to shoot to shreds. Try harder!

[gejohnston]

29. it was still under investigation

according to the special prosecutor. She also said it was not that uncommon to not charge anyone immediately. She also pointed out how irresponsible the media has been. He still could have been arrested and charged. Now that the State charged him with murder 2, because of political pressure, we have to hope the State can prove it. If they can't, the blow back will suck for both of us. It just won't be for reasons you think.

[bongbong]

30. Oh boy

> He still could have been arrested and charged.

The operative words are "could have". Sanford has a long history of coverups to protect evil-doers.

And Zimmerman is not the only case by any means. Lots of other cases, plus the ones that don't even make the papers.

Take your pick of the many examples: http://www.google.com/search?q=syg+allows+murders

[gejohnston]

32. Mostly on the PD

not that Sanford PD is that unique.

[krispos42]

3. Background checks on private sales...

...need to be done through the state level, as it's intra-state commerce, not inter-state commerce.


And since the public-area SYG laws include a provision that you have to be in immediate danger of death or serious injury, I don't see how it's a shoot-first law, as much as the anti-gun forces pretend that it is.

[bongbong]

11. Dead men tell no tales

It's easy to make your story stick when it's the only one.

[gejohnston]

14. Actually dead men do

it is called forensics.

[bongbong]

20. Actually they don't

It's called get rid of the evidence, or create new evidence, or create contradictory evidence.

[gejohnston]

23. most murders are not that bright

most have been to prison at least once, Agatha Christie novels not withstanding.

[bongbong]

26. Thanks!

> most have been to prison at least once

At least the ones that got caught. Just like I said. Thanks for backing up my point.

[gejohnston]

28. I fail to see how

but you seem to grasp at straws and try to claim anything as "backing up my point".
Your "point" implies that in Duty to Retreat places, the dead bad guy would admit to the attempted crime?

[bongbong]

31. No straws here

The guys who didn't get caught are the ones who were smart enough, or lucky enough, to fool the forensics.

And I think you might watch too many crime shows. Forensics is a very sketchy "science". Lots and lots of proof for that. Here's one:

http://www.cracked.com/article_18398_6-disastrous-ways-pop-culture-influences-real-world.html

[gejohnston]

33. it is a matter of degree

and, Cracked as a source? I'll remember that link the next time microstamping or shell casing collections come up.

[bongbong]

35. Yes

Just a test to see if you went to see the data, or just dismissed it. So I wasted time on you.

I will spend a lot less time researching evidence to debunk your gun-religion the next time. Thanks for the heads up.

[Clames]

38. You should spend less time posting in this group...

...it would save time for everyone...

[krispos42]

36. Innocent until proven guilty?

Or something.


SYG doesn't necessary have immunity or "the burden is on the state" clauses, although it's often portrayed that way. Depends on the actual state.


Although if you stay up nights worrying that a CCW permittee is going to kill you, a random stranger on the street, simply because he can get away with it in a court of law, then you're worrying too much. People that want to kill people for the thrill of murder (a rare type of murderer to begin with) generally hide the bodies or themselves to avoid being caught. They don't wait for the cops to show up and then claim self-defense.

[ileus]

5. 2AINOs

More people that bite into the "shoot first" lie that alone should tell us something about their true agenda.

What does hunting have to do with self defense? I've always got a kick out of the I hunt ducks too bunch.

[Atypical Liberal]

6. Some more common sense.

For example, we should require a background check for every gun sale.

I will not support nor tolerate any gun control measure that eliminates firearm ownership anonymity. We have that today because the government cannot be sure that firearms, even purchased new through an FFL dealer, have not been sold on privately.

If you want to have a background check for all firearm sales, including private sales, it must be done in a way that insures firearm ownership anonymity.

One way to do this is to issue firearm licenses to all eligible persons when they get a driver's license or state-issued ID, unless they opt out.

If you just want to make all firearm transactions be recorded by the government, forget it.

And we must repeal the tragic "Shoot First" laws that the NRA leadership and their lobbyists have pushed for, and passed, in 25 states.

Stand Your Ground laws were passed because it was not right that people who lawfully defended themselves with deadly force ended up being eviscerated financially defending themselves in criminal and civil court cases.

If you want to make every self-defense case make the victim go through a complete court case that's fine, but people who are found to be not guilty of any wrongdoing should then have their legal expenses paid for by the state.

People should not be penalized for lawfully shooting criminals while defending lives or property.

[PavePusher]

8. "...we must repeal the tragic "Shoot First" laws..."

No, what we really need to repeal are the "Lie First" laws that let you spew untruths without a background check, permit, fees to the government or any personal accountability.

[BiggJawn]

37. "Commonsense gun laws" equals "Total ban on firearms"

The anti-gunners must believe their own press about us being ignorant Bubbas...