NRA: 10 ways it has weakened gun-control laws in the US

[SecularMotion]

The NRA, working alongside like-minded conservative groups such as Alec, the American Legislative Exchange Council, has developed sophisticated lobbying networks designed to push back gun controls both at the federal and state level.

Here are key areas where the gun lobby has either pushed laws that weaken controls or blocked laws intended to tighten loopholes:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/13/nra-weakened-gun-control-laws?newsfeed=true

[Atypical Liberal]

1. That's why I keep paying my dues.

Collective action works.

[HockeyMom]

2. So you would support guns in mental institutions?

Hell, we didn't let them have access to sharp pencils which could be used a weapon, but staff should be carrying guns? People who propose this should be in a mental institution themselves.

[Atypical Liberal]

4. Maybe.

If I was working in one, I'd want one.

My good friend was a psychiatrist. He kept a pistol in a holster under his desk drawer, in case one of his patients became violent.

[HockeyMom]

9. Violence in some form was an everyday occurrence

The key was to not have anything around which could cause severe harm to themselves or others, or death. The alternative was to medicate them to the point where they became vegetables.

[safeinOhio]

6. I'd much rather send my little

extra money to Democratic Underground.

[Atypical Liberal]

14. I'm afraid to donate here.

I don't want to donate money and then end up getting tombstoned. Fortunately they've recently fixed the ignore function so the odds of that happening are diminished but still.

[safeinOhio]

17. Fear of losing ten bucks?

After spending hours and hours on your nearly 4,000 post? You are one brave man. Supporting Lapierre over Skinner?
Even if you were TSed you'd be donating to all the other liberal ideas that you support.

[Atypical Liberal]

23. It's the principle.

It's the principle. I don't want to give money and then be exiled. Been there, done that.

[derby378]

31. I donate - have donated to DU for years

Really, it's not that hard. Come on in.

[beevul]

36. Don't be.

One could keep things an entire magnitude less nasty than some of the antis, and still make ones points without any risk of getting PPR'd.

I donated once or twice, somewhere between 2003 and today...before money got really tight.


I wish I had the money to, these days...

Keeping the wifes PC and mine semi up to date these days drains what little spare cash we ever seem to come up with.

Well, that and the cost of keeping the lawn mowed.

[Atypical Liberal]

3. 10 great ways we are protecting the second amendment.

1. Concealed carry reciprocity

I have no problem with this, any more than I have a problem with drivers' license reciprocity.

It would be nice to have a uniform federal standard for CCW, and I imagine we will get it if we have universal reciprocity.

2. Private gun sales loophole

If you require a government background check for every firearm purchase, you have just created a de facto firearm registry, which is unacceptable.

I would not have a problem with an opt-out FOID system similar to what Illinois has, which would give everyone who applies for a drivers' license or state-issued ID an FOID automatically unless they opt out.

3. Terror watch list

Everyone should oppose this abomination. It is a secret list of people maintained by the government that, by their own admission, includes people known not to be terrorists and excludes known terrorists, and this list is above due process.

No Constitutional right should be restricted without due process.

4. Stand-your-ground laws

The only problem with SYG laws is the rare possibility that two people might reasonably fear for their lives from each other, and thus reasonably attack each other.

I would have no problem getting rid of SYG laws provided people who kill in self-defense and are found to have lawfully done so have their legal expenses reimbursed by the state.

5. Guns on campuses

There is no reason why a person who can carry a concealed weapon down main street while surrounded by hundreds of his fellow citizens cannot also do so on a college campus. Amy Bishop shot 6 people, killing 3, in the building on UAH where I have class 3 days a week. The rules did not stop her. They only stop law-abiding people.

6. Guns in schools

I have no problem with this, as above.


7. Guns in the workplace

I have no problem with this.

8. Guns in bars and restaurants

I have no problem with this.

9. Tracing guns used in shootings

I am all for anything that makes it harder for the government to maintain a registry of firearm owners.


10. Revoking licences from corrupt dealers

I'm not familiar with this. Given the anti-criminal nature of the NRA, I suspect this is being spun by the article. More likely this is to prevent governmental railroading of legitimate FFLs.

[safeinOhio]

8. After re-reading the Second Amendment,

I can see nothing you have listed having to do with that Amendment.

[jpak]

10. What a stupid post

yup

[ProgressiveProfessor]

33. Much better thought out and reasoned than most of yours

yup yup

[rhett o rick]

12. My Republican brother in law agrees with you point by point. nm

[Becka2515]

13. well a broken clock and all...

nt

[rhett o rick]

26. Well a broken clock may be right twice a day but my Republican brother in law isnt. nm

[bongbong]

15. 2nd Amendment

The 2nd amendment has nothing to do with laissez-faire gun ownership. It is about militias.

[sarisataka]

16. Exactly...

Right there in black and white:

"the right of the militias to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed"

What? Oh,

[DonP]

20. Who to believe, you or the President and SCOTUS? Tough call

I'm gonna have to go with the Supreme Court and our President, along with pretty much every law school professor in the country, that foolishly think it's an individual right and has nothing to do with Militia service.

Sorry, gun control fans lose again.

What do you know, not as tough a call as I first thought.

[X_Digger]

21. I notice you've yet to define this 'laissez-faire' gun ownership.

Considering the tens of thousands of laws concerning gun sales, ownership, and use, I have to think it's a bullshit term.

Care to clarify?

[Atypical Liberal]

24. What role were the militias to play?

The 2nd amendment has nothing to do with laissez-faire gun ownership. It is about militias.

Please define "laissez-faire gun ownership".

What role do you think the militias were to play?

Why did the founders perpetuate a decentralized militia system instead of a single militia under the control of the federal government?

[rhett o rick]

27. Your arguments are IMO very weak. The SYG laws are shoot first. They are license to kill

if you FEEL threatened. If you kill someone, you should have to prove that it was not avoidable. SYG allows people to start a fight and then KILL. The Martin case is a good example. THe police on the scene declared Zimmerman justified in killing Treyvon. Without public outcry nothing more would have happened.

You say that gun laws dont stop criminals only law abiding citizens. Well, duh! That applies to all laws and isnt a reason to eliminate the laws.

As far as guns on campus, can you imagine how many more deaths there would have been if half the students were armed at Virginia Tech? Once the shooting started no one would know who was the bad guy. "Shoot the one with the gun." And what would the police do when they arrived. "I shot him because I thought he was shooting at me."

How nice it would be to think that carrying a gun would make one safer.

[Atypical Liberal]

28. I don't have a problem with that, as long as the state pays the legal expenses.

SYG laws were put in place at least partly because people should be able to defend themselves without destroying themselves financially by having to prove that they acted correctly to save themselves.

If you want to put that burden back in place I'm OK with that as long as the state pays the legal expenses for people who are found to have acted correctly in self-defense.

You say that gun laws dont stop criminals only law abiding citizens. Well, duh! That applies to all laws and isnt a reason to eliminate the laws.

But it's not fair to pass laws that keep law-abiding people from carrying firearms when it doesn't do anything to stop people bent on committing crimes.

As far as guns on campus, can you imagine how many more deaths there would have been if half the students were armed at Virginia Tech? Once the shooting started no one would know who was the bad guy. "Shoot the one with the gun." And what would the police do when they arrived. "I shot him because I thought he was shooting at me."

First of all, I seriously doubt half the students at Virgiania Tech are over 21 years old.

Second of all, in all the decades of concealed carry, how many times has this confusion arose?

It's usually pretty easy to figure out who the bad guy is. He's the one doing bad things.

[oneshooter]

29. There are approximately 20 college campuses that allow concealed carry in the US

Some if not most for over 20years. Could you show where any of your scenarios have occurred on any of them. Or are you just letting your mind wander without a leash on it.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[rhett o rick]

32. You dont really want an intellegent discussion do you?

"Or are you just letting your mind wander without a leash on it."

It was a rhetorical question.

[oneshooter]

43. Yes I do. I am just having trouble in having one with you.

Now go and find where any of the drivel you posted has happened.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[rhett o rick]

44. Your continued condescension and insults indicate otherwise. nm

[PavePusher]

30. "As far as guns on campus..."

Please cite to any time this has happened in a public or private setting.

We'll wait.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

34. Not all SYG laws are the same and none do what you claim they do

[rhett o rick]

37. Do you guys travel in packs? The police in the Treyvon Martin case would

disagree with you. They decided right there on the spot that Zimmerman was justified in killing Treyvon. No investigation needed. Without public outcry, nothing more would have been done. Zimmerman would have had his wildest dream come true. He got to kill a bad guy. Sadly he has to rationalize that Treyvon was a bad guy.

Prior to the SYG laws, if you killed someone you had to prove you didnt have an option. Now you just have to convince the police that you were threatened and you are allowed to actually get to use that precious gun to blow someone's head off. I wonder what the favorite caliber is, maybe 9mm or 45 cal? And I suppose there are special bullets that do the greatest damage in human tissue.

I feel so much safer knowing there are Zimmermans out there with their guns at the ready, just looking for an excuse to kill.

[gejohnston]

38. that actually may have not been the case

need to keep up. The last story is that cops on the scene wanted to charge him, but the Chief and DA did not. Of course, we will see where this goes.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

39. You clearly have not kept up on the Zimmerman case and are clueless about the law

Last edited Tue Apr 17, 2012, 02:06 AM - Edit history (2)

The lead police investigator recommended Zimmerman be arrested that night. He was overruled by the State Attorney for that area of Florida. I doubt the initial State Attorney's reasoning will ever be made public. I agree that without an outcry it would not have been reviewed. While like a rational person I am waiting for more evidence to come out, I have always felt the Miller case was a very questionable shooting and still do.

SYG varies tremendously from state to state as well as its close cousin, Castle Doctrine. You appear to be attacking both.

In the US you have never had to prove you did not have an option for some time. You had to prove "reasonable fear of great bodily injury or death" and in some states prove that you were unable to retreat.

Under Castle Doctrine, the resident has the presumption that they were at risk for GBI/Death. Additionally, they have no duty to retreat. Someone breaks in, the residents kill the intruder, and there will be no charges. 44 states have some form of Castle Doctrine.

Under SYG, the duty to retreat is removed while out of your home/car (depends on the state). Nothing changed about the requirement to show that there was reasonable fear of great bodily harm or death. That requirement is common throughout the states, and remains in the Zimmerman case as well. SYG is in force in 22-24 states by various means.

Additionally some states, including Florida block civil suits without a criminal conviction in such cases. That means there can be no civil suit against Zimmerman, the HOA, or anyone over Miller's death unless there Zimmerman is convicted. I have mixed feeling on those laws having seen both sides abuse things.

To bring this back to Zimmerman, if his shooting of Martin does not meet the burden of self defense, its over and he is going to jail. If it does, its over and he is going free. SYG just means he had no duty to retreat while in public. It is not a license to kill.

I teach firearms for self defense on the side here in SoCal. I am stridently pro gun here on DU. However, I think the Zimmerman case in FL and Horn case in TX are both very questionable and have said so publicly, here, and in my classes.

As for you question about calibers, you should use as heavy a gun/round combination you can effectively control and use. My late wife preferred a Wather PPK (.32) or a .380 auto. She was small in stature, and they worked well for her. These days whatever I carry has a mix of rounds (snake shot/hollow point. That is due to my unique Socal location.

So enough of this "pack" horseshit.

[rhett o rick]

40. And you clearly cant have a discussion w/o throwing insults.

And you know what I am talking about re. "packs". Gun control is the only subject in DU where I get swarmed, dare I speak out. And look at those that responded to me. How many use insults to try to make their points?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

42. Then address what was said and don't lead with insults

People also tire of people repeating false data, which you did.

Only one other person responded to what I did

[ileus]

5. This is the only good thing about the NRA.

[pipoman]

7. Wow

all of the Brady's ridiculous talking points in one article..half truths and outright lies..No mention of the NRA's support of nearly every gun control law on the books either, huh?

Oh, and all from that paragon of liberty, the UK..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101496650

[gejohnston]

11. typical UK journalism

SOURCE: Mayors Against Illegal Guns
That was their sole source.

1. Concealed carry reciprocity

The NRA is backing two bills currently being considered by the US Senate that would extend the right to carry concealed weapons right across the US. The Begich-Manchin and Thune-Vitter bills would override the laws of almost every state by forcing them to allow people with out-of-state concealed carry permits to carry a hidden loaded gun, even in cases where the individual would not have qualified for a permit in that particular state. The Thune bill goes further – it would allow people from states that don't even require permits to carry hidden guns throughout the country.

True to a degree. In the case of "where the individual would not have qualified for" means that I don't have to be a millionaire in NYC, or give to the sheriff's campaign in Orange and LA counties California. The objective criteria is pretty much the same as shall issue states.

2. Private gun sales loophole

Under existing federal law, unlicensed gun sellers are allowed to sell weapons without a background check of the buyer at gun shows and other private sales. Paradoxically, only licensed dealers are required to conduct such background checks, which gun control advocates see as crucial in cutting off the supply of weapons to criminals and mentally unstable individuals. The NRA strongly opposes legislation that would close this glaring loophole by requiring background checks for all gun sales.

It is more accurate to say private sellers are not allowed to, and can not even if they wanted to. Let me repeat, PRIVATE SELLERS ARE BARRED FROM DOING BACKGROUND CHECKS BY LAW. THEY DO NOT HAVE THE FUCKING OPTION

3. Terror watch list

The NRA has strongly opposed legislation to prohibit the sale of guns to people on the federal government's terrorist watch list. Under current law, a suspected terrorist can be put on the no-fly list and be kept off a plane, but can't be prevented from buying a gun.

More Dick Cheney fans.

4. Stand-your-ground laws

The NRA successfully lobbied for Florida's stand-your-ground law in 2005, the same shoot-first provision that was invoked by Trayvon Martin's killer, George Zimmerman. Working with Alec, the NRA has encouraged the passage of similar legislation in 24 other states, and now it is actively pursuing bills that would codify similar legislation in at least seven states: Colorado, Massachusetts, Minnesota (where the bill was vetoed by governor), Nebraska, New Jersey, New York and Washington.

Washington has been SYG since 1917, OK by common law instead of being in the code. Notice, they did not explain it to their UK readers.

5. Guns on campuses

This year, at least 14 states have introduced 35 bills, with NRA encouragement, that would allow students and faculty to carry concealed weapons on the campuses of state colleges and universities, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. Alec, too, has put forward a model bill for guns on campuses. Remarkably, the argument is often made that having hidden guns on campus would help prevent another Virginia Tech, America's deadliest shooting by a single gunman, in which 33 people were killed in April 2007.

I hardly find that remarkable, given that the campus cops stood around outside with their fingers up their asses listening to the gun shots.

6. Guns in schools

NRA-backed gun proponents have tried in several states to pass legislation eliminating "gun-free zones" and allowing weapons in elementary schools and even day-care centres. In February, the Georgia state assembly considered - though did not pass - HR 981, which would have made it legal to carry guns on college campuses, elementary and secondary schools, state mental hospitals and bars.

I used to carry a rifle in my high school once a week. Several of us did on the same day.

7. Guns in the workplace

For several years the NRA has pushed legislation prohibiting businesses and employers from banning guns in locked cars in parking lots. It has been successful in several states, including Florida and Utah, and is currently pushing for passage in Tennessee. Indiana and North Dakota have enacted laws allowing employees to sue if they are asked about gun possession at work.

I fail to see why they should have a problem with this.

8. Guns in bars and restaurants

The NRA has also been lobbying for several years to expand the right to carry hidden loaded guns into bars and restaurants.

As long as no one is drinking, how is that an issue? Is Bloomburg closing down cop bars? Or telling NYPD they can't carry in cop bars?

9. Tracing guns used in shootings

In 2004, a Republican congressman from Kansas, Todd Tiahrt, a long-time ally of the NRA, added an amendment to bill regarding the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives (ATF). Until that point, data had been kept on the history of guns used in murders and shootings, which allowed police and policymakers to trace them back to corrupt dealerships and other holes in the system. The rule change, known as the Tiahrt amendment, made this data much harder to acquire. It also forced the justice department to destroy within 24 hours the records of any gun buyer whose background check was approved. The overall impact of the amendments was to make it much harder for police to clamp down on illegally distributed guns.

Complete lie. Trace data is available to local law enforcement, and only law enforcement. That is why MAIG does not like it. They can't get it to sue, and ATF won't give it out to Joyce Foundation "researchers". One thing. Until that point, data had been kept on the history of guns used in murders and shootings, which allowed police and policymakers to trace them back to corrupt dealerships and other holes in the system. That is the ATF's job.

10. Revoking licences from corrupt dealers

The NRA has made several attempts to usher through Congress an "ATF reform bill" that would make it much harder – some say virtually impossible – to revoke the gun-selling licenses of crooked dealers. If the bill passed – and the NRA is expected to try again soon – the ATF would have to prove the dealer's state of mind, in terms of his or her premeditated intention to break the law.

Complete bullshit. Under the gun control act, the ATF has only two choices, nothing or throw the book. The bill would allow for sanctions in between.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

18. BRAVO

That about says it all....and look at that list......truly telling.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

19. BOOK MARKING

Thanks.

[krispos42]

22. All from Mayors Against Guns, and not a single explanation or counter-balance

1. Concealed carry reciprocity
About 10 states do not recognize any reciprocity, regardless of whether the visitor's home state requirements are as strict or stricter than the state being visited.

2. Private gun sales loophole
It's not a loophole. It's a private transaction, which may or may not (usually not) be at a gun show.

3. Terror watch list
Flying is a privilege, not a right. The government could also suspend the driver's licenses of people on the terrorist watch list, but they cannot prevent them from traveling, voting, speaking, jury trial, etc.

4. Stand-your-ground laws
It's not a shoot-first provision, it's a "you don't have to run away if threatened" provision.

5. Guns on campuses
"Remarkably, the argument is often made that not having hidden guns on campus would help prevent another Virginia Tech, America's deadliest shooting by a single gunman, in which 33 people were killed in April 2007."

6. Guns in schools
Yeah, because those signs up 1,000 feet from the perimeter of a school campus really deter crime.

7. Guns in the workplace
It's my car. You want the right to search the car I'm driving, buy a car and loan it to me free of charge.

8. Guns in bars and restaurants
And the provisions about being intoxicated and in possession of a gun remain in effect.

9. Tracing guns used in shootings
The amendment "...prohibits the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) from releasing information from its firearms trace database to anyone other than a law enforcement agency or prosecutor in connection with a criminal investigation." Okay, so what's the problem?

Also, if the government keeps a permanent record of all approved background checks, that's de-facto gun registration.

10. Revoking licences from corrupt dealers
I don't know enough to comment on this issue.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. Typical "journalism" these days

[X_Digger]

25. Thanks, I needed an incentive to renew. n/t

[slackmaster]

41. Stupid, slanted article written in ignorance. I stopped reading at "3. Terror watch list"

Anyone who thinks that the ability of a lawful US resident to exercise his or her civil rights should be curtailed based on the Bush-era secret suspect list obviously doesn't understand the basics of our legal system.

I regard the opinion of anyone who holds that particular view as less than worthless.