Police: Zimmerman says Trayvon decked him with one blow then began hammering his head

[shadowrider]

With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered, authorities have revealed to the Orlando Sentinel.

That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.

Zimmerman has not spoken publicly about what happened, but that night, Feb. 26, and in later meetings he described and re-enacted for police what he says happened.

In his version of events, he had turned around and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind, the two exchanged words then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground, and began beating him.

Zimmerman told police he shot the teenager in self-defense.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_arizona-iced-tea-suv-unarmed-black-teenager

[ForgoTheConsequence]

1. Probably shouldn't have followed him then.

If he would have listened to the dispatcher this whole thing could have been avoided. You aren't acting in self defense if you go out looking for a fight.

[KansDem]

16. Sounds like Trayvon was standing *his* ground.

And not the other way around...

You aren't acting in self defense if you go out looking for a fight. You are when you start getting your ass handed to you...

Reminds me of when I was 7th grade. A bully had been chiding me to fight him, but I always walked away. I wasn't into fisticuffs.

This happened mostly at school, so there was always a distraction: going to class, other students standing around, teachers in classrooms nearby, etc. Never got to the punching stage.

But once on the weekend I ran into him as he was coming home from the grocery store. He put his bag of food down and said, "Okay, this time we're going to fight!" Realizing I had no choice, I said "Sure," and "went all out" by coldcocking him twice on his face and head. Caught him completely off guard! He backed off and said, I wasn't "fighting right" and picked up his bag and continued on home. I didn't have any trouble with him after that.

When the bully realized he was beaten, he picked up his bag of groceries and went home. Perhaps Zimmerman did the same but picked up his gun instead...

[Oneka]

20. Since when

Does confronting someone who is walking away from you, then physically attacking him, rise to the level of standing your ground? Only in circumstances that fit your agenda?

[KansDem]

24. If Trayvon was being confronted by Zimmermann...

Doesn't he have the right to stand his ground? After all, one 911 tape had him asking, "What are you following me for?"

Sounds like Zimmerman was the aggressor...

[Oneka]

26. Who confronted who?

In his version of events, he had turned around and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind,

.

Sounds to me that Zimmerman was walking back to his truck. The 911 tape says that Zimmerman had followed and lost Martin. Zimmerman never even approached Martin ,in his version of events.

[KansDem]

33. Who said "What are you following me for?"

From the site:

Trayvon was visiting his father's fiancée, who lived there. He had been suspended from school in Miami after being found with an empty marijuana baggie. Miami schools have a zero-tolerance policy for drug possession.

Zimmerman called police and reported a suspicious person, describing Trayvon as black, acting strangely and perhaps on drugs.--Really? Zimmerman is trained to identify some "acting strangely and on drugs?" Why hasn't there been a description to corroborate Zimmerman's accusation?

Zimmerman got out of his SUV to follow Trayvon on foot. When a dispatch employee asked Zimmerman if he was following the 17-year-old, Zimmerman said yes. The dispatcher told Zimmerman he did not need to do that.

There is about a one-minute gap during which police say they're not sure what happened. --How convenient!

Why didn't Zimmerman provide an answer when asked why he was following Martin?

And what about this piece of information?

Several witnesses heard those cries, and there's been a dispute about from whom they came: Zimmerman or Trayvon.

Lawyers for Trayvon's family say it was Trayvon, but police say their evidence indicates it was Zimmerman. --What evidence?

One witnesses, who has since talked to local television news reporters, told police he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon on top, pounding him and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help. --Really? Who is this "witness?"

Where was Zimmerman's gun? How did he manage to pull it out with someone allegedly on top of him and "pounding him?"

It's been a month and this all comes out today?

on edit--

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run."

Eventually, he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.

"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone."

The line went dead. Besides screams heard on 911 calls that night as Martin and Zimmerman scuffled, those were the last words he said.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-arrest-now-abc-reveals-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017


And why hasn't a voice analysis been conducted to see who was shouting "help?"

[shadowrider]

35. It's been a month and all this comes out today?

Where have you been? It's been out there if you choose to read or watch more than the alphabet networks. This info is just now coming out in the MSM because they can't hold it back.

[KansDem]

39. I get my news from DU!

...and the earliest thread on this is from March 12--
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=416158

Now, maybe this story appeared earlier in some local rags as a kind of tribute to the SYG law, but I didn't see it until it appeared on DU...

[shadowrider]

41. Fair enough. But please don't say it's "only coming out today"

if you don't look elsewhere.

Deal?

[KansDem]

42. Deal!

[eqfan592]

66. So Trayvon couldn't have asked this after Zimmerman started to walk away?

Sorry, but you aren't offering a counter argument here. Nothing that I see there actually contradicts Zimmermans account. That doesn't mean I think Zimmermans account is 100% accurate (I honestly have no idea).

[zbdent]

2. "corroborated by witnesses" ... so why didn't any of the "witnesses" warn Z that

Trayvon was coming at him from behind? Why didn't any of these "witnesses" try to defuse the situation?

Maybe they were afraid of Z? He would turn the gun on them?

[eqfan592]

67. wow, the lengths you must be willing to go...

...to make sure you don't give Zimmerman any benefit of the doubt at all.

[AH1Apache]

3. While I agree that Zimmerman may have truly been in fear for his life

None of this would have happened if he had followed the dispatchers instructions and just stayed in his car and waited for the police to arrive, and this young man would still be alive and we would not be having this debate.

[shadowrider]

7. I agree, but, simply put, you can't unring the bell

We can no longer deal with "what if's or if only's". It is what it is.

[AH1Apache]

10. Absolutely correct.

My father had a saying when we were growing up
If wishes were horses, than beggers would ride.

[Elric]

76. My Grandfather had a different, more earthy saying along the same lines

Shit in one hand and put your wishes in the other hand... see which one fills up first.

[krispos42]

59. If you start a violent conflict and then begin losing....

your fearing for your life isn't relevant anymore. You lost the right to self-defense the moment you started fighting, unless your intended victim hugely escalates the conflict. If Zimmerman had grabbed Martin by the shoulder and Martin yanked out a knife and stabbed him, then maybe Zimmerman would have been justified in drawing and shooting before he (Zimmerman) could be stabbed again.

But it didn't happen that way. Once Zimmerman grabbed him, Martin had the right to beat him until Zimmerman was no longer a threat, or to draw a knife or a gun, or to taser or pepper-spray Zimmerman.

[GreenStormCloud]

63. Not quite true.

Even if you start the fight, once you attempt to quit the fight the other guy then becomes the aggressor if he continues the fight. The original aggressor can then become the defender.

[krispos42]

68. Yeah, that's part of the statue. I doubt Zimmerman backed off...

...and I doubt Martin pursued him and forced Zimmerman to draw and shoot.

I find it far more likely that Zimmerman chased after and grabbed Martin, Martin shook him off and turned on him, and Zimmerman went down. Maybe he was knocked off balance by Martin's countercharge, maybe he tripped over his own feet or a curb, maybe he simply overshot Martin and stumbled. Martin winds up on top and gives Zimmerman a couple of solid hits.

At this point, either Zimmerman draws and shoots from the prone position, which isn't covered by self-defense laws as a) Zimmerman was the instigator and b) Martin isn't elevating the situation by drawing a knife or club or gun first, or Martin gets up at this point and backs off, and then Zimmerman draws and shoots him after getting up.

I don't think Martin was going to re-initiate the fight after letting Zimmerman up. I find it far more likely that Zimmerman drew and shot Martin in a rage after being embarrassed by losing to a "kid".

[Oneka]

64. "Once Zimmerman grabbed him"

Are you making a hypothetical here, or is there some new information about how this confrontation started?

BTW, after starting a violent conflict,in Florida, you can absolutely fear for you life, and have it be relevant, this is codefied in
Florida statute 766-041 (2) A and B.

[Hoyt]

4. Zimmerman shouldn't have stalked him. Zimmerman is just another worthless soul using a gun to

intimidate unarmed kids, and compensate for their own issues.

[AH1Apache]

6. Just can't resist yourself can you?

Just more vile accusations towards legal gun owners.
But you are right about one thing, he should have stayed in his car.

[villager]

8. "Legal gun owners" is a misnomer, since the NRA bullies legislators into letting everyone have guns

"Legal gun owner" means nothing in age of unchecked weapon proliferation

[AH1Apache]

12. Congrats.

You win the most ridiculous post of the day award.

[villager]

13. Your inability to reply with anything other than ridicule or snark doesn't make it less so

[ProgressiveProfessor]

70. What else would you suggest for post as flagrantly false and incendiary as yours?

[Straw Man]

37. Unchecked?

"Legal gun owner" means nothing in age of unchecked weapon proliferation

Nice buzz phrase, but I think you should take a good look at the web of laws regulating gun ownership in this country, from the federal level down to local ordinances, before you make your pronouncements. No, never mind. No matter how many there are, it wouldn't be enough for you.

[shadowrider]

38. Unchecked? I guess that means I can run down to WalMart and buy me several of them

machine guns, probably for $100 each with no questions asked.

[villager]

49. ah, the straw man of machine guns...

I have no doubt you have an NRA-hatched argument, though, on why everyone needs to own one...

[shadowrider]

55. LOL, you haven't seen the "Machine Guns at Walmart" video

An anti said they're there. I'm gonna run down and get a few.

[beevul]

52. Really? REALLY?

They bully legislators into letting felons and dmoestic abusers have them?

kindergarteners? middle school students?

Newborns?

You DID say Everyone.

[spin]

57. So are you suggesting that nobody has the right to own a firearm? ...

If there are no "legal gun owners" are all people who own firearms criminals.

Perhaps you just disagree with the term "legal gun owner", if so what term would you prefer that would not be a "misnomer"?

[Hoyt]

9. Do you consider yourself like Zimmerman?

[AH1Apache]

11. What the hell are you trying to imply?

[Callisto32]

17. Do you consdier yourself a potato?

[shadowrider]

18. Potatoe?

[Callisto32]

14. Each more repulsive than the last.

[krispos42]

60. I was agreeing with you, up until the comma.

:sigh:

You make it very hard.

[safeinOhio]

5. If a reasonable man thinks his life is in danger.

When the wanna be cop started to follow and harass a kid walking home from the store, he was no longer a "reasonable man". If Zimmerman gets off on SYG laws, they will be repealed. Too bad ALEC.

[Oneka]

22. If Zimmerman's

Account of what happened is correct, SYG
Won't even come into play.

[safeinOhio]

29. Zimmerman lost his reasonable argument

when he disregarded the police official (dispatchers are sworn in as police and fire officials) to stop following and wait for a real cop.

[shadowrider]

30. You need to get hold of the prosecutor and let her know your unique insight

on how this case should proceed.

I'll see if I can get the contact info for you.

[safeinOhio]

34. Get a hold of the Florida law makers too

and send them this video of a law professor pointing out the vagueness of this law.

ttp://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0322/Will-Trayvon-Martin-case-spur-rethinking-of-Stand-Your-Ground-laws-video

[shadowrider]

36. That's your anti-law job, not mine. You contact them.

I bet they can come up with a law professor that takes the opposite view. Oh wait, THAT professor would be in the tank for the NRA/GOP/ALEC complex and isn't to be believed. Right?

[Oneka]

46. Reading is fundamental.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: (911 Dispatcher) OK, we don't need you to do that.

=|= stop following and wait for a real cop.

Looks more to me like YOU lose your argument.

[X_Digger]

48. In what jurisdiction are 911 operators 'sworn in'?!?

Used to be that many *dispatchers* were cops on disability or desk duty, but no jurisdiction that I'm aware of considers them 'sworn officials'.

You'll recall that the language the operator used was very weasely- "We don't need you to do that." -- probably for this very reason.

[beevul]

53. Your facts are wrong.

"he disregarded the police official (dispatchers are sworn in as police and fire officials) to stop following and wait"

He was never lawfully ordered to stop.

Generally dispatchers do not have the authority to give legally binding "lawful orders".

The dispatcher said something along the lines of "we dont need you to do that".

Which is quite different than "Don't do that" (whether such an order carried force of law or not.

All fact, that. How that plays into the case, time will tell.

[saras]

23. Martin, as a reasonable man, would have been justified in shooting Zimmerman, not vice versa

If you, as an obviously loony self-appointed cop with no legal authority (I will assume than Martin knew that Neighborhood Watch people don't work solo with guns) go and accost someone because you don't approve of their appearance, you have to accept that "fuck off and die, asshole" is a perfectly reasonable response. And you need to be prepared to calmly accept that and walk away.

Otherwise you're a thug, and the people you accost have a right to stand their ground, according to that state's law.

Martin, if he had a weapon, could have ordered Zimmerman to get back in the car and slowly drive away. That would be a reasonable interpretation of "stand your ground" that produces no unnecessary deaths.

While I don't like the law, it is a law that could be interpreted sensibly by sensible police and courts. That, unfortunately, is not the case.

[Oneka]

27. Did you even bother to read the article?

Zimmerman, in his own words was confronted by Martin as he was walking away! Martin was both the aggressor and initiated a physical attack, not the other way around.

[shadowrider]

28. Try reading the police report

http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

[Straw Man]

40. Not the way you describe it.

Martin, if he had a weapon, could have ordered Zimmerman to get back in the car and slowly drive away. That would be a reasonable interpretation of "stand your ground" that produces no unnecessary deaths.

No, he could not have ordered him to do any such thing -- not by any bizarre stretch of the meaning of SYG laws. He was not a police officer any more than Zimmerman was. The only "order" one could conceivably give in such an encounter would be "Back off!" or "Stop hitting me!" The laws are about self-defense in the case of assault, pure and simple. If no one is being assaulted, there is no justification for any use of a firearm.

[Oneka]

65. Can you point

to any news source, 911 transcript, or witness acount, that verifies your claim, that this kid was harassed by Zimmerman?
Or are you pulling that statement, directly out of your ass, to enflame the situation?

[AH1Apache]

15. Message received and understood

[ileus]

19. Humm....interesting.

[shadowrider]

21. Even more info is available.

According to this article, he was on suspension (10 day) for having an empty marijuana baggie. Another account I read, but it hasn't been confirmed is, he punched a school bus driver.

[Starboard Tack]

50. Punched a school bus driver? No. And an empty marijuanan bag.

Then he definitely needed to be shot. Nice one Shadowrider. Thanks for straightening everything out for us all. All those SYG supporters are crawling out of their little holes now.
Oh, sorry, it hasn't been confirmed yet. OK boys, let's re-holster our guns for a while and grab a beer. When you've finished your beer, be sure not to get caught with the empty bottles.

[shadowrider]

56. Self-deleted. It isn't worth it to argue with someone that would argue the color of the sky.

[Starboard Tack]

58. Yeah I read it - the "story".

Stories sell newspapers. Paper never refuses ink. Are you working a paper round for the Orlando Sentinel? Otherwise, what was your point in posting this "story"?
Was it to smear Trayvon Martin or defend Zimmerman? Are you trying to demonstrate a history of violence for Martin? This kid sounds pretty normal to me. Stood up for himself against a bully, who may have been racist. Maybe he got the better of the bully and "decked" him. So what? The guy had been following the kid in his suv. Could've been a child molester. Obviously he was even worse than a simple child molester. He was a child killer.

[sarisataka]

51. Have to go with the family on this one

"The family has said, 'what does that have to do with him (Zimmerman) killing my son? What does it matter?'" Crump said. "It's completely irrelevant what Trayvon Martin was suspended for on Feb. 26."

I think a school administrative penalty is far less relevant than Zimmerman's past of non-prosecuted violence.

[safeinOhio]

71. Here is where the information you "read" comes from.

http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/sourcing_trayvon_martin_photos.php

[gejohnston]

72. I was wondering were those came from

I was on a jury were some guy in GD posted those claiming they are recent pics of Martin (the claim being the real pics were when he was 14) Never mind that the two don't look nothing alike and the gang tattoo close ups were on a guy with a darker skin tone. Hopefully he is back under the bridge munching on a granite pizza with extra anchovies.

[kestrel91316]

25. If somebody were stalking me and then cornered me, that's probably what I'd at least try to do, too.

[Dr_Scholl]

31. This doesn't make him look any better.

If nothing else, he was getting his ass kicked by a scrawny 17 year old kid.

[shadowrider]

32. Yea

A scrawny 6'3" in shape 17 year old sucker punching an overweight 250 lb man.

I'm 58. Does that mean a 17 year old shouldn't be able to whip my ass? Of course not, he'd wipe me up. It's why I carry an equalizer.

[Dr_Scholl]

61. You've got a point.

But I know i'd be embarrassed as hell getting whooped by a 140 pound 17 year old.

Then again, i'm 24, 6'0 and 160 pounds and in good physical condition (I have to be for my future career).

[Starboard Tack]

62. We need someone like you and your buddy Zimmerman in every neighborhood.

Especially outside our local high school where you can do some real equalizing. If some creep in an SUV were stalking your teenager, some 250 pounder with a fucking gun, what would you tell your kid to do "Stand his ground and get equalized!"?

[eqfan592]

69. Your irrational ravings don't really add anything to the conversation.

And this post, in particular, was really a new low for the irrational that hang around this forum. Welcome to the ignore list.

[Atypical Liberal]

44. Scrawny.

The guy played football, so he wasn't too scrawny.

I don't understand the weight angle here.

From his 2005 mug shot, Zimmerman looks quite the fatbody. It's easily possible for an in-shape 17 year old to trounce a 28-year-old fatbody. The 17-year-old was probably in the shape of his life.

[Dr_Scholl]

47. I didn't know he played football.

From what i've heard, he was 6'2 and 140 pounds. Zimmerman was 200 pounds.

Regardless, Zimmerman was an idiot who brought this on himself.

[Atypical Liberal]

54. Aparently he played until age 14 or so.

He may not have been playing currently, from what I can determine.

Zimerman was 28 and weighed 250.

[msongs]

43. gun toting stalker attacked by victim, gun toting stalker does what he went to do in first place nt

[shadowrider]

45. And you know of his "intent" how?

Perhaps you ought to contact the prosecutor with your keen insight and force them to file murder one charges. (And Zimmerman will walk if they do).

[Tuesday Afternoon]

73. I really find it hard to believe that a grown man with over 90 lbs on a 17 y/o boy

was overtaken. If he was taken from behind how did the punch in the nose happen?

more data is needed before I can come to logical conclusion on the events.

[beevul]

74. Its not unheard of.

Note that I'm not saying that this actually happened in the martin case, but it is most definitely a possibility.

I agree , more data is needed before one can come to any reasonable conclusion.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

75. possible - yeah/probable in this case- hard time believing it but ---

More Data is Needed... yep.

[pneutin]

77. Joe Oliver was recently on Nancy Grace's show stating Zimmerman is now 170 lbs

Zimmerman, 5'9" (according to police report) and 170 lbs (according to Joe Oliver)
vs.
Martin, 6' and 160 lbs (also according to police report)

Joe Oliver on Nancy Grace:
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2012/03/27/exp-ng-joe-oliver-interview.hln?iref=allsearch

A more recent pic of Zimmerman suggests it is indeed the truth.
[image][/image]
So it looks like Martin had a 3" height and 11 year age advantage, with Zimmerman having a 10 lbs weight advantage. The match-up seems to be in Martin's favor if judging on a purely hand-to-hand combat situation.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

78. those stats. sorry. 11 years at those ages -- is a HUGE advantage.

a fully grown MAN -vs- a teenage BOY. forget that.

Like I said...it MAY be POSSIBLE but, is it LIKELY in THIS CASE???

I highly doubt it but, I will wait for more data before I come to a logical conclusion.