No matter what I do-

[digonswine]

I can't find one single thing that would excuse what Zimmerman has done. Any action he took directly caused a death-unnecessarily. There are no excuses-at least to me. I do not like to convict in my mind or judge prematurely--but I can not think of any reasonable circumstance where this dink is not responsible for the death of an innocent person. How do you see it?

[gejohnston]

1. based on what I see so far,

I agree. The guy who wrote Florida's SYG law agrees.

[sarisataka]

2. However

It should be a jury that decides, not public opinion- if that is even possible given the calls for justice up to and including the president.

Picturing myself in Zimmerman's place I can only envision one scenario which would have taken me into a confrontation. That being an assault upon, or from, a third party, which clearly is not the case here.

[digonswine]

3. yes it is possible-

if it will be allowed to go on.

I actually cannot imagine myself in Fuckhead's place. I would have made decisions differently. I would not have been packing heat. I would not feel I needed to stop those people that always get away with it. I would not be an authoritarian gun-toting prick with a hero hang-up. Yes--I am judging-I don't mind. He created the situation, acted upon it and needs to suffer the consequences.
If you decide to carry-you have made a decision to be responsible for what happens. That's it. No excuses.

[sarisataka]

6. Hopefully

An impartial jury can be found; although any lawyer worthy of working for Dewey, Screwem and Hau will claim it is a poisoned jury, then appeal to have the conviction overturned.

I can see myself calling 911 to report a suspicious person, then my path would go completely different. Stay in the car, observe, repeat as necessary until police arrive.
I too would not be an authoritarian gun-toting prick with a hero hang-up. I am confident and satisfied with who I am, all seventy-five extra pounds of me that seem to have come from somewhere in the last decade . Go ahead and judge, it is a free country

"If you decide to carry-you have made a decision to be responsible for what happens. That's it. No excuses."
Please allow me to rephrase that.

If you decide to carry-you have made a decision to be responsible for what happens. That's it. No excuses.

[Hoyt]

14. Yep, if Zimmerman were not toting a gun, this would not have happened.

[Remmah2]

15. SSDD

Same ship different day.

[Hoyt]

16. Thems the facts -- sorry, you and your guns don't like it.

[era veteran]

19. FYI Hoyt guns are inanimate objects

It takes a human to use them, properly or improperly.
But you already have had that explained.

[Hoyt]

23. And Zimmerman is a coward -- so without a gun he wouldn't have been on the prowl.

Guns enable sad souls to do things -- usually bad things -- they would not otherwise do.

Why do you think so many people gravitate to guns?

[era veteran]

33. I have laid weapons on people several times because of legitimate circumstance.

They warranted it, I did not shoot them and law prevailed. The 'gun' was the tool I used to implement that law.
This guy, it sure seems, is one fucked up individual.
Regardless of our differences, I think we both want this person indicted.
A sad affair.

[Hoyt]

34. I'd like to see some laws changed too.

And I've had supposed law-abiding citizens lay guns on me for illegitimate reasons.

[Remmah2]

38. Two sides to every story.

Your side, their side, but the truth is somewhere in between.

It comes down to the issues you retain after the experience.

[spin]

22. If Zimmerman had followed the dispatcher's instructions ...

the fact that he was armed, or unarmed would be irrelevant.

Having a concealed carry license does not mean that you are a cop. You are not wearing a uniform with a badge nor do you have the training to confront a suspicious individual.

That's the bottom line.

I legally carry a firearm in case in order to stop an attack by an individual who intends to put me in the hospital or six feet under. If I see a suspicious individual, I call the police. I follow their instructions. I don't get paid to be a cop nor do I want to be one.

[Hoyt]

24. But, like many people who carry guns, Zimmerman was not reasonable.

[spin]

25. You say many people who carry firearms are irresponsible ...

If you were correct we would see many such incidents in the news.

We don't.

[Hoyt]

28. Why do you feel one with gun or two tucked in their pants has to shoot someone to be irresponsible?

People with guns use them to intimidate all the time.

Like I've said before, the few gun carriers here may be saints among toters, but there are lots of folks like Zimmerman, Loughner, TBaggers, NRA backers, etc., who aren't saints.

[spin]

29. I have legally carried a firearm on a regular basis for at least 15 years ...

and to the best of my knowledge, not one person I encounter or walked past ever knew that I was carrying.

If I did try to intimidate someone with my firearm by drawing it to gain leverage in an argument or merely flashing it, I could be in SERIOUS trouble with the authorities.

[Hoyt]

30. Like I said, you might be a saint, but toters like Zimmerman aren't.

[Hoyt]

31. You might not, but I do.

[Common Sense Party]

40. You mean, "UNLIKE MOST people who carry guns, Zimmerman was not reasonable."

I fixed it for you. No thanks are necessary.

[Hoyt]

42. Not what I meant. I suspect many of you if cold cocked by an unarmed teen would come up shooting.

Even if it was your fault for playing policeman and chasing said unarmed teenager.

You might leave home with your gun with no thought of shooting someone (although if that casual about tucking your gun in your pants, it would best be left at home). Then you have a bad day, then you think you see a criminal so you stalk him with your gun close at hand, then he knocks you upside the head because he's not a criminal (just what you thought one looks like), then you become irresponsible.

Heck, you might even have a stroke and have hallucinations. Who knows what might set you off and cause you to reach for your gun just like responsible Zimmerman who had complied with all permit requirements, gone through NRA half-assed training, read the laws (at least the 3 words, Stand Your Ground), but next thing you know you are over your head and start shooting. Or, it might as simple as someone steals your gun and shoots another person with it. If you had not been packing, that might not happen.

Shit happens -- and having a gun around when it hits you might not be a good idea.

[Common Sense Party]

43. The only one having hallucinations here is you.

There are medications that can reduce your violent fantasies. You may want to look into that.

[Hoyt]

44. I'm sane enough to walk out my door everyday without thinking about strapping a gun on.

[ManiacJoe]

45. Interesting how you equate "hoping to stay lucky" with "sane".

Your suggestion that folks are insane for choosing to be prepared for unlikely-but-bad events shows that you have no idea how to apply statistics to the real world.

[Common Sense Party]

46. It's like saying "I'm sane enough to drive without a seat belt" or "I'm sane enough to not carry

fire insurance on my home"

[Common Sense Party]

47. Sane enough people don't have the violent gun porn hallucinations you have

We're all concerned for you.

[Hoyt]

48. You are concerned about all "antis" because you can't envision life without guns.

[Common Sense Party]

50. You're the one hallucinating about people with guns "strapped" to them,

stuffed in their waistbands, rudely toting and attacking people. You're hyper-"concerned."

I'm only concerned about your health.

I can't envision life without books or ice cream, either. Since both are legal, why should I have to?

[HALO141]

51. So was Jeffery Dahmer.

One thing has nothing to do with the other.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

4. There is no excuse

It fails the FL standard for the defensive use of deadly force, it fails the standards in the FL Stand Your Ground law, and it fails the smell test. Zimmerman is going to jail, the process is moving forward, though slower than many of us would like.

That said, the meltdowns I am seeing here is also disheartening. Asserting things as facts that are not, assumptions that are clearly invalid, and anyone pointing out specifics and the law is an evil NRA supporting right winger. Liberals and Progressive are supposed to be the rational advocates of reason. Not seeing it at the moment. Some of those screeds are going to be legendary.

[digonswine]

8. I also do not think that the SYG law applies in this case-

It worries me that this law may be wrongly applied making it more difficult to hold murderers responsible. That is not necessarily a criticism of the law itself.

[Starboard Tack]

17. I agree with your second paragraph

The first, however, appears not to be happening. If you are correct about it failing all these tests, then why, pray tell, is this killer still at large with his license to kill still valid?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. Have to ask the State Attorney...it is a mystery to me too

There is a lot of data still under wraps and no explanation as to why

[spin]

26. It does appear that the authorities in Sanford ...

might be hiding behind the "Stand Your Ground" law in order to avoid arresting and prosecuting Zimmerman. If so, all the attention that this incident has attracted will cause their efforts to backfire.

[Hoyt]

5. I agree. But I don't think a jury will necessarily convict him.

They might get some charge against him-- but serious time, not so sure.

[ellisonz]

7. We're talking Florida here...

...don't hold your breathe for a trial much less a conviction.

[shadowrider]

9. You are welcome to your opinion and you may very well be correct.

Me? I'm keeping a completely open mind about the entire ordeal. If Zimmerman is guilty, he needs to go away for a long, long time. There is the chance though, no matter how miniscule it may be, he's not guilty.

As far as a trial is concerned, there will be one. Public opinion and outrage will demand it. Now, that said, will there be a conviction? If there is, what for? I don't think it could be murder (which, and I may be wrong, would indicate intent and would be a huge burden for the prosecution to prove, IMO). Maybe 2nd degree? Maybe manslaughter? It isn't up to me and I won't be on the jury, but here, in the USA, Zimmerman is still entitled to be innocent until proven guilty (no matter the facts beforehand).

The prosecution needs to be very, very careful in the charges they eventually file. If they go for murder and no intent is proven, he'll walk (IOW, did Zimmerman go out that night with the intent to kill someone who just happened to be Martin?)

Just my opinion (see sig line).

[digonswine]

10. Of course we need a trial-

if somehow something emerges that suggests Zimmerman was justified-I will change my mind. I do not see this happening. The decisions he clearly made, though, shows me a person acting irrationally, provokingly, and dangerously. He brought a gun into a situation where even he(gun or not) did not need to be. His actions directly resulted in this death. W/O this confrontation, we have a non-event. It is not wrong to think that it is 99% likely that he is a murdering prick. I can say that and still have an open mind.

[shadowrider]

11. No worries, and I agree. I was merely expressing an opinion

Not knocking yours.

[digonswine]

12. Gotya-thanks--

I just wanted to clarify a bit.

[eqfan592]

13. I just want to say first...

...how happy I am to see a calm, rational discussion taking place on this topic!

To answer your question, I think I would tend to agree with you, but I'm trying my best not to convict this guy in my own mind until we get all the facts straight. Assuming this case goes to trial, it'll be one I watch with interest.

[DonP]

18. You just can't project your judgement onto someone else

I've learned the hard way that you can never understand why or how some people make the deciisons they make and do what they do.

You look at some things from murder, to armed robbery to child porn and all you can do is scratch your head and wonder how and why another human being could do that?

A lot of people work from the assumption that other people must think pretty much the same way they do, I guess it's the only way some folks can deal with all the strangeness out there. But some people just have some loose wires, a strange and dangerolus upbringing, childhood trauma or any number of things that went wrong somewhere down the road.

They don't and can't think like we do and we can never understand how they think either. The guy who murdered 5 unarmed, bound a gagged women, execution style at our local Lane Bryant, is never going to make sense to anyone with a brain even vaguely wired right.

Trying to understand that guy or Zimmerman is just an exercise in frustration and futility. That's why some people just say really dumb things like; "I know just how they feel". No, you don't, because you aren't all fucked up with no values and no respect for human life.

I doubt any of us will ever understand why Zimmerman made the choices he made that night. But in the end it doesn't matter whether we ever "understand" why he did what he did. All that matters is that the law take its course, fairly and impartially.

[X_Digger]

36. Well said. n/t

[digonswine]

37. Good points-

I realize that the guy might have some problems in the head. I don't know anything about him in that regard. It would almost make it a bit better if he did have some cognitive problems-I know I would not be quite as upset about the incident(at least how I feel about Zimmerman as a person). My OP was specifically about my (near) inability to come up with circumstances that would make what he did OK. I certainly COULD be wrong, but I find that to be unlikely in this case.

[DonP]

39. I understand

The fact that all this happened in Florida a month ago and is just hitting the news cycles now makes me suspicious of media motives. I tend to want to wait for a few days or a week or two to find out everything I can about incidents like this.

It's just too easy and popular to jump on the "Outrage" bandwagon and start calling for someone's head on a platter, based on one or two sketchy news reports. Then a week later we find out some new things about the case and a lot of people wind up looking foolish.

I do enough all by myself to look foolish at times. I'd rather not add to the impression by trying to be "one of the gang". So I'll wait a while before forming an opinion and calling for new laws, retraction of old laws or indictments of all concerned.

[era veteran]

20. Nothing excuses this act

[spin]

27. From the media reports that I have read or watched, I agree ...

Fortunately under our system of government the media is not authorized to be the judge and jury. The media is doing its job as a free press in reporting on the incident and causing enough attention to attempt to insure a fair trial and possibly justice.

Our justice system has its problems and sometimes a jury decides to let a person walk free and many who didn't witness the trial and some who were in the courtroom will disagree. Still I feel it is the best system we can come up with in our nation at this time and is far superior to allowing the media to determine a person's fate.

[era veteran]

32. Oh I agree, The man should be charged though... IMO

That guy has some problems that unfortunately came to light too late.

[spin]

35. He should be required to face a jury ...

to explain his actions.

(Assuming that the information that I have read in the media is correct.)

[Common Sense Party]

41. The only thing I can say is: I WAS NOT THERE THAT NIGHT.

I do not know exactly what happened that night and neither does anyone else here.

I can't muster a whole lot of sympathy for Zimmerman when he could have easily stayed in his car...but I'm not ready to convict him of cold-blooded murder against an innocent child until all the facts come out.

[digonswine]

49. That seems to be a sensible reaction-

I'm not ready to convict either. I simply want him held responsible if his decisions resulted in an unnecessary death-which would appear to be the case. I say "would appear"--this doesn't mean "certainly is" the case.