The Lie of Self Defense

[fightthegoodfightnow]

How a Gun Can Be Judge and Jury And a Bad One at That


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/17/us/justice-department-investigation-is-sought-in-florida-teenagers-shooting-death.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=911%20call%20florida&st=cse

[gejohnston]

1. this one case does not

mean anything beyond this one case. The problem is not the law, the problem is Sanford PD's investigation. That is how it looks so far. According to other reports, FDLE is also investigating and it has been turned over to the state's attorney. Everything seems to hinge on who's voice is crying for help in the 911 tapes, if they can tell.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/117221940

[socialindependocrat]

2. I would ask why the neighborhood watch isn't in pairs.

Usually a neighborhood watch is done in pairs or groups.

Then, there are so many things in this story that don't jive.

Then, a person who uses lethal force on an unarmed individual?
Who is older and larger
and
Was told to stay in his car..

Doesn't sound right...

[fightthegoodfightnow]

3. Here's Another One You Didn't Bring Up

Who was black and who was white?

[gejohnston]

4. Actually

the other guy is Hispanic. If you are saying that if it was a black shooter, that he would be charged. That is not always true.

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/09/12/nyregion/conductor-is-arrested-in-80-subway-slaying.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz

Does it look like the shooter is an asshole who acted illegally? It does look that way.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

6. Ok

I stand corrected but then again......it doesn't diminish my point.

[lunasun]

8. George Zimmerman is the son of a white parent and an hispanic parent thus the name Zimmerman

so you are 1/2 correct

but just like Obama is usually called black not biracial , Zimmerman is being listed as an Hispanic in the media

anyway that was what I read more than one source

[fightthegoodfightnow]

11. Right

......and race never comes into consideration in who gets shot.

[Atypical Liberal]

43. Often you get whoever signs up to do the job.

Usually a neighborhood watch is done in pairs or groups.

I've been in two HOAs. Getting people to sign up for community jobs is like pulling teeth out of a chicken. It is not unsurprising to have just one person volunteer for a job. That was the case in this guy's community, from what I have read.

[pipoman]

5. How ironic..

didn't you just post another thread where you wish to be judge and jury even after a jury acquitted a person..weird, just weird..

[fightthegoodfightnow]

7. Isn't That What a Gun is For

.......every time someone points and shoots it at another person?

But heh....the fact he was violent and owned a gun is well documented by the jury's verdict.

[pipoman]

9. No, it isn't

and what jury's verdict would that be? Did you read the verdict somewhere? How about posting an excerpt and/or link.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

10. Oh Good Grief

So you are not an attorney.

Every time someone shoots a gun at someone they are deciding whether or not the person they are shooting at is guilty of a crime or they are a criminal themselves. It's one or the other.

Judge and jury or criminal.....

[Callisto32]

14. A jury is a trier of fact.

Actually, they are more than that, they are triers of fact, after the fact. Judges are finders of law, and finders of fact after the fact. A person engaging in what may or not be self-defense in the moment is a completely different kind of fact-finding than is done by judges and juries. As an attorney who as fought for his life, I find your characterization of the kind of actions done in a courtroom as being like those done in the moment of conflict as the same thing incredibly insensitive, utterly devoid of empathy.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

15. Incredibly insensitive, utterly devoid of empathy?

My empathy lies with the person killed by a gun from someone whose judgment was so poor he killed an innocent man.

Where does yours lie again?




.

[pipoman]

19. Telling..

your empathy doesn't lie with the innocent person killed, not a person who used bad judgement, but by a person whose intent was to steal, rob, rape, beat, or otherwise commit a criminal act against a weaker or unarmed innocent person...in a moment, when there is nobody to protect the innocent person except themselves, you hope for the innocent person to 1. not have the ability to adequately defend themselves and 2. if the person does have the ability to defend themselves you proclaim them vigilantes acting as 'judge and jury'..the masses will never again buy into this distortion of justice...this is why gun control is on a 15+ year loosing streak, and if it weren't for a few authoritarian billionaires would be bankrupt for lack of people willing to donate to the lost cause.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

22. Facts Not in Evidence

Where exactly did the article state the victim (you know....the dead guy) was intent 'to steal, rob, rape, beat, or otherwise commit a criminal act against a weaker or unarmed innocent person?'

First of all...the so called 'weaker person' was armed and he killed an innocent unarmed person.

Seconds of all, no 'intent' was introduced.

We are talking about this case aren't we?

Thus the lie of self defense is perpetuated by those who think a gun owner assumes no responsibility for his actions even when he kills an innocent man.

[pipoman]

23. No disputing that if someone does error

that they shouldn't have to defend their actions against criminal prosecution. Your assertion is that because occasionally someone uses poor judgement that nobody should be allowed to adequate defense is what my disagreement with your position is all about. Where has anyone said, "Thus the lie of self defense is perpetuated by those who think a gun owner assumes no responsibility for his actions even when he kills an innocent man."?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

27. Funny

The first sentence must be your sub-conscience.

I'll leave you to argue if someone does error they 'shouldn't have to defend their actions against criminal prosecution.'

[Straw Man]

44. What a bunch of pious garbage.

Thus the lie of self defense is perpetuated by those who think a gun owner assumes no responsibility for his actions even when he kills an innocent man.

Let's try to parse this, shall we? What is the "lie of self defense"? It certainly sounds as though you're generalizing from this incident. Do you believe that no one has ever legitimately defended him/herself? Is that the "lie" to which you refer? Did someone here claim that gun owners "assume no responsibility" for their actions -- in other words, that they can kill anyone with impunity? I haven't seen it.

Feel free to opine that Zimmerman is guilty. You may very well be right. But in trying to use this case as fodder for a blanket condemnation of armed self-defense, you're only succeeding in making a fool of yourself.

You're really desperate for someone to defend Zimmerman, but you're not finding anyone. It must be very frustrating for you.

[Callisto32]

41. Yes.

When you are making decisions about facts in a court room it is an after the fact, cold assessment of what happened. When you are in a fight with a loaded gun being pointed at yourself and/or another, you don't get the luxury of that kind of hindsight. To expect human beings under the influence of the fight or flight reflex to make the same quality risk assessment as folks being methodically presented with mounds of evidence after the fact is incredibly insensitive and utterly devoid of empathy.

[pipoman]

20. I have worked on many, many defense teams, but again not in capacity of attorney

under the direction of an attorney (usually).

You really don't understand the basic human instinct and right to defend one's self and one's family, huh? People who don't believe anyone should defend themselves are usually religious pacifists, or cowards.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

21. Or Survivors

.

[pipoman]

25. I'm sure survivors of criminal acts against innocent people do agree with your position..

[fightthegoodfightnow]

29. I know they do.

Just ask the folks locked in a freezer during a robbery while their boss pulled out a gun and tried to shoot the robber rather than give him the money.. Unfortunately the boss didn't survive.

[Callisto32]

42. I will add nuance to the list of things you don't understand.

There are more variables in a fight than are dream't of in your philosophy, fightthegoodfightnow.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

24. PS

Your definition of cowardice suggest anyone who doesn't own a gun is not defending their family and is therefore a coward.

I understand I don't need a gun to survive threats on me and my family. A coward is someone who thinks a gun alone will do that.

[Straw Man]

45. Nope, got it wrong again.

Your definition of cowardice suggest anyone who doesn't own a gun is not defending their family and is therefore a coward.

He said nothing about guns. He referred to those who don't believe in self-defense.

I understand I don't need a gun to survive threats on me and my family.

Could you also tell us who's going to win the next Presidential election? How about the next three Kentucky Derby winners? Might as well make some money off this ability to divine the future.

A coward is someone who thinks a gun alone will do that.

Would you care to explain that one? Are you suggesting the fisticuffs would be the more courageous alternative?

[GreenStormCloud]

12. Because one person is falsely claiming self-defense does not...

...mean that all self-defense claims are lies.

You appear to believe that when actually threatened with deadly violence that we should meekly submit.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

16. Nah

....of course that is not what was said.

[slackmaster]

13. Lots of speculation there. Assumes many things as facts that are presently uncertain.

...The two got into a struggle that was partly overheard by a few neighbors....

Exactly how that "struggle" commenced and what happened in what order are central to the question of whether or not the shooting of Trayvon Martin was a lawful act of self-defense. Until that is determined through due process, this kind of opinion piece is worthless at best.

This may have been a cold-blooded murder by someone who was out looking for trouble. Based on the scanty information I have in front of me (and yes, I have listened to all of the 911 tapes several times and read all of the eyewitness accounts and opinions that have been published) it could also have been an unfortunate misunderstanding between two people who were afraid of each other for their own reasons, that somehow escalated into a physical fight with a tragic ending. Or it could have been something else.

I do not have enough information to know with certainty what really happened. The Trayvon Martin case notwithstanding, the piece seems to be claiming that all claims of self-defense are automatically suspect. That is not true. This is propaganda with an obvious agenda.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

17. Was the use of force necessary?

No.

[slackmaster]

35. My answer to your question is "I don't have enough information to give a meaningful answer."

Please don't put words in my mouth.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

37. Should he have obeyed the police instructions to stay in his car?

That shouldn't be too tough for you to answer.

[slackmaster]

38. That was a suggestion by a 911 operator, not "police instructions" so your question is loaded

He had no legal obligation to stay in his car, and the fact that he didn't will make no difference in whatever charges may be brought against him or whether he will be convicted.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

39. You do know that 911 operators are the police in most jurisdictions.

But even if they are not, he would not have killed if he remained in the car.

He was looking for a fight. I'm sure he'll get one in jail.

[slackmaster]

40. No, I don't believe that is the case

Cite?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

18. anecdotes are not considered to be scientific evidence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence#Scientific_context


neat story, though.

[jpak]

26. Zimmerman is the poster boy of gun-toting shoot 'em up vigilante racists everywhere

what an ugly fuck

yup

[fightthegoodfightnow]

31. Agree

.

[ileus]

28. He's part white of course he's racist...that's a given right. I thought gunz killed people?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

30. Right

Because race is never a factor when it comes to gun violence and 'perceived' threats.

I leave you to argue the white part made him a racist. I don't.

[DWC]

32. This is a racists, anti-gun propaganga piece at best

1. the investigation is actively in progress. What actually happened has not yet been determined.
2. Zimmerman was cut which at least suggest Martin had and either attacked or defended himself with a knife. Is that correct? If so, which was it?
3. We know about Zimmerman's criminal background check. What does Martin' criminal background check show?
4. We know that Zimmerman is 1/2 hispanic and 1/2 white. Is Martin all black or 1/2 something else?

I honestly know that, from the current information available, I can not form an objective opinion of what actually occurred.

For the OP to take this limited information and present it in support of what is, IMO, a racist, anti-gun agenda is the lowest form of hypocrisy.

Semper Fi,

[COLGATE4]

33. Absolutely.

Last edited Sun Mar 18, 2012, 04:06 PM - Edit history (2)

After all, who could possibly fault a middle-age cop wannabe (Major in Criminal Justice, very active in 'patrolling' in his Neighborhood watch, calling cops 24/7 on all matter of 'suspicious persons') from blowing away an unarmed teenager? I mean, just because he pursued the kid in his car and, disregarding 911 instructions then got out of his car to confront him is just what any rational law-abiding adult would do. In fact, maybe the kid was only 1/2 black - that probably explains it. And it's pretty clear from the evidence so far that the teenager was clearly the agressor, putting Zimmerman in fear for his life when he probably cut Zimmerman on the back of his (Zimmerman's) head with the sharp edge of the Skittles pack. After all, Zimmerman has no history of violent behavior (oh, whoops - I guess he did have a little violence problem with the cops in the past - but no matter. I'm sure it's not relevant here, at least that's what the local cops decided). It's a crystal-clear case of 'stand your ground', as far as I can see.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

36. Well Said

.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

34. Right

....but you can form an objective opinion of me because you know me so well.



Not.

[ellisonz]

46. 3. Martin has no criminal record.