Boy, 3, kills himself with gun found in family's car

[Starboard Tack]

SEATTLE (AP) - A 3-year-old scrambled out of his child seat after his parents stopped for gas early Wednesday, found a gun police say was left in the car by his father and fatally shot himself in the head.

The accidental shooting in Tacoma marks the third in three weeks in Washington involving young children, and the second fatality. The spate of gun violence is raising questions about the effectiveness of the state's gun laws and community awareness of firearm safety.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Boy-3-kills-himself-with-gun-found-in-familys-car-142616396.html

I'm speechless.

[teddy51]

1. Please see: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002425115

[msongs]

2. NOT accidental. everything has a cause and the father's action led to the shooting nt

[Starboard Tack]

5. I would say a series of Daddy's actions led to this tragedy.

He bought into the myth that carrying a handgun is a way to protect his family.
He left the loaded gun in the car with a toddler and a baby.
He either didn't take gun safety 101 or fell asleep during it.

Of course, all our "responsible" gun carrying friends will point out that this incident, along with the other 30,000 gun deaths a year, are statistically insignificant, because we have 80 million gun owners and 50 trillion guns and thousands of new concealed carry permits being issued every day. Thank you NRA.

And shame on anyone who encourages more of this insane behavior, or attempts to apologize for it.

[gejohnston]

8. I have to say

He bought into the myth that carrying a handgun is a way to protect his family

given the empirical evidence by real objective criminologists, no myth.

He left the loaded gun in the car with a toddler and a baby.

That was negligent and stupid

Of course, all our "responsible" gun carrying friends will point out that this incident, along with the other 30,000 gun deaths a year, are statistically insignificant, because we have 80 million gun owners and 50 trillion guns and thousands of new concealed carry permits being issued every day. Thank you NRA.

given that your 30K includes suicides, which would not be deterred, is dishonest. In fact, most of them are suicides. Most of the rest are gangsters killing other gangsters. Such accidents are in the two digits. Still too many. Not the NRA, grassroots activism. That is something your side is seriously lacking.

And shame on anyone who encourages more of this insane behavior, or attempts to apologize for it.

Given the statistical odds, the greater probability would be he would saved himself or his family. You may not like it, but neither did criminologists like Kleck and Rossi.

[COLGATE4]

32. Isn't it likely that

many of the suicides by gun may not have gone thru with it if they had had to do it the old-fashioned way? After all, hanging yourself or cutting your veins is a pretty grisly task, and while some will undoubtedly do it no matter what the obstacles, it certain appears that having a quick, easy way to do it at hand will lead some people with suicidal tendencies to do it when they otherwise would not. There's rarely a "call for help" frustrated suicide when a gun is involved.

[Starboard Tack]

34. GE and I have had this conversation many times.

You are absolutely correct. The facts are these.

Suicide is a major, preventable public health problem. In 2007, it was the tenth leading cause of death in the U.S., accounting for 34,598 deaths.1 The overall rate was 11.3 suicide deaths per 100,000 people. An estimated 11 attempted suicides occur per every suicide death.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-us-statistics-and-prevention/index.shtml

That translates as 8.5% success rate overall. Now consider that half of successful suicides are performed using a gun. That means traditional methods only account for 4-5% of successful suicides.
Gun attempts have a 95%success rate.

Firearms and Suicide

Although most gun owners reportedly keep a firearm in their home for "protection" or "self defense," 83 percent of gun-related deaths in these homes are the result of a suicide, often by someone other than the gun owner.
Firearms are used in more suicides than homicides.
Death by firearms is the fastest growing method of suicide.
Firearms account for 50 percent of all suicides.
http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.viewpage&page_id=050fea9f-b064-4092-b1135c3a70de1fda[/div class]

[gejohnston]

39. One major flaw in those studies

it does not seperate the "call for help" (hoping to be saved) from those who are serious. "Call for help" folks are going to walk past the loaded gun to get the phone and pills (or sharp object for the wrist) because they want to get someone's attention and help.
Those who seriously want to die, they use a gun, rope, jump in front of trains etc. The study would be more valid if it only included "serious" victims who were saved.

The more guns = more suicide is even more absurd than more guns = more crime. If more guns = more suicide, why do many European countries, South Korea and Japan (among others) have much higher suicide rates? Many countries have suicide rates higher than our murder and suicide rates combined. Russia, South Korea, Japan, Belguim, and France for example.

That said, I think Japan deserves more study. Murder/suicides are not uncommon there. They don't count them the same we do. If they did, their actual murder rate might be closer to ours. For example we count 4 murders and 1 suicide for a family of five. Japan counts it as five suicides (they have different words, but still count them as suicides). The police also tend to write off cold cases as suicides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

[shadowrider]

41. Or, if a gun, rope or train doesn't do it, how about a chainsaw?

Police: Palms woman used chainsaw to commit suicide

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/03/15/police-palms-woman-used-chainsaw-to-commit-suicide/

[Starboard Tack]

47. Yeah, those chainsaw suicides are becoming very popular in LA

Boy, you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel now. Getting that tasty sludge.

[PavePusher]

37. "...if they had had to do it the old-fashioned way..."

Ummm, how recent an invention do you think guns are?

[gejohnston]

38. that is because

those who are a "call for help" do not use guns or hang themselves.

[mvccd1000]

22. Mostly agree

The father (and any other adults who knew the gun was in the car) are completely to blame here, and should be held responsible. There's nothing excusable about the situation.

The only part I take issue with is, "the myth that carrying a handgun is a way to protect his family."

Regardless of your stance on the issue, carrying a handgun is A way to protect his family. Certainly not the only way, and perhaps not even the best way, but it is a well-documented fact that carrying a handgun is a way to protect (yourself, your family, the citizens you protect and serve, etc.).

[Starboard Tack]

26. I accept that carrying a gun is a possible way to protect one's family.

Obviously, in this case, it wasn't the best. The exception proves the rule. How do you protect your family from your own stupidity? Going for a drive with your wife and 2 small kids is plenty to be thinking about. Worrying about what to do with your handgun is a problem one doesn't need.

[oneshooter]

31. Simple, it stays in its holster by my side, where I go

it goes. I have full control of it at all times.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[tosh]

3. Raising questions.

Indeed.

[otohara]

4. Another Gun Headline in America

A shot rang out at night, when everything seemed right
Another gun headline in America...

Los Lobos

[pipoman]

6. Are these really "gun violence"?

Maybe gun negligence? Or gun accidents? I associate violence with intentional acts by one or more people on one or more other people. I have never heard anyone citing vehicle fatalities as 'motor vehicle violence'.

[Starboard Tack]

10. "never heard anyone citing vehicle fatalities as 'motor vehicle violence'." Really?

Check this double whammy from Beaumont, TX, earlier today.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/14/justice/texas-courthouse-shooting/?hpt=hp_t1

Guy shot his daughter and then ran over her - Double whammy!

[pipoman]

13. Sounds like exactly the definition I gave for violence in the post you are responding to, no?

(judging from your excerpt, I didn't click the link)

[TheCowsCameHome]

7. Dad had a concealed weapons permit?

I can't believe it. Much.

[gejohnston]

11. if he did

he violated the conditions of it. The article says Washington law says it must be on your person if not secured.
It does not happen, but not as often as MAIG members being convicted for corruption or MMM members being convicted for gun crimes.

[ileus]

9. A PPE can't provide the safety for your family when out of your reach.

Rule #1 for CCin' keep it by your side, it does no good away from your person. How did he plan to protect his family without his sidearm?

[Starboard Tack]

12. Excellent question

Makes one wonder who is issuing these permits and how folk qualify for them.

[PavePusher]

17. Yes, that's the problem with Civil Rights.

We let everyone have them by default, unless they prove themselves a danger to others.

What a crazy fucking way to run a country.

[ellisonz]

25. Well this one proved himself a danger to others with a blast.

Sounds pretty fucking crazy to me

[eqfan592]

73. That does happen from time to time in a free society.

[Starboard Tack]

35. You said it. Doesn't get much crazier.

Calling carrying a gun a civil right.
What a crazy fucking way to run a country.

[eqfan592]

72. Ummm, you may not agree that people should HAVE that civil right...

...but it IS a civil right, like it or not.

[Starboard Tack]

74. Constitutional right.

Don't denigrate civil rights. We fought hard for them.

[pipoman]

14. Maybe there was one of these at the store?

[TheCowsCameHome]

15. Too bad there wasn't on in his car.

His kid is dead because of that asshole.

[PavePusher]

18. That's how my gun got stolen. And then some people had the chutzpah to blame me for it.

There's no fucking pleasing some people.

[ileus]

19. You make an excellent point.

[savalez]

24. Was there also one of these at the store?

IMO the only one to blame is the person who left a kid alone in a car with a loaded gun within reach. If he couldn't take the gun with him he should've taken the kid.

[pipoman]

30. No disagreement that the guy made a critical error..

but policies which leave people in a position of having to leave their legally carried guns in their car unattended leads to a host of other problems..theft, and unauthorized access to name two.

[ellisonz]

16. ...

[Logical]

20. Another IDIOT gun owner! most of us are not that careless!!!

[Starboard Tack]

21. Not just a gun owner, but a CCW permit holder.

The potential for an even greater tragedy such a situation is enormous.

[gejohnston]

23. being a CCW holder matters how?

How is that relevant? What if it was a cop? Did he leave it in the car because of a "no guns" sign? If so, what is the establishment's responsibility? (my answer is none. If you are going to claim gun owners in general are responsible for social problems, I think logical consistency is in order)

[Starboard Tack]

27. They are supposed to be the law abiding responsible ones.

I don't know what you mean by "What if it was a cop?" Now we're hypothesizing that there may have been a "No Guns" sign? Please. I don't think we want to go there.
I don't blame gun owners in general for anything. I blame gun freaks for encouraging the sort of behavior that led to this tragedy. I blame the NRA and all who support the irresponsible carrying of handguns in public and encourage more people to do it, in the name of safety. I blame those who jeopardize the lives of innocent children in order to compensate for their own shortcomings and assuage their irrational fears. I blame those who call instruments of death safety tools. I blame those who when they read of such tragedies, hang their heads in shame, knowing that their voices and their actions helped cause this tragedy. I blame everyone who cheers when public safety takes a back seat to yet another redefining of RKBA and legislators let themselves be bullied, by lobbyists for the gun industry and the NRA, into loosening gun laws in the name of "civil rights".
And I blame them all for fucking it up for regular folk who keep guns for legitimate purposes, yet get smeared by the fallout from incidents like this.

[AtheistCrusader]

36. The other one WAS a cop.

There's nothing wrong with carrying concealed responsibly.

This fellow, didn't. That was negligence. And he'll be paying for it the rest of his life.
I would personally recommend some form of criminal charge as well, but that probably won't happen. We'll see.

[Starboard Tack]

48. Sorry, what "other one"?

I must be a bit slow.

[AtheistCrusader]

51. There have been more than one of these incidents in the last few weeks.

This one, not a cop, kid shot himself.
Another was a cop, again, left the gun under the seat, one kid got it and shot his other kid.

[Starboard Tack]

52. Holy shit. I had no idea.

Will it ever stop?

[AtheistCrusader]

57. As long as people are negligent with firearms, no.

Firearms safety should be returned to schools, for starters. Too many people learn 'all they need to know' about guns from TV. That would be a good start.

[ileus]

28. it was a cop three days ago...but only cc holders are the enemy.

Sheese don't you know guns in the hands of your 99%er are evil, not police or government.

[shadowrider]

29. This one was a cop

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/142248455.html

But they should be the only ones allowed to carry guns because they've been checked and stuff.

[aikoaiko]

33. I keep one in my glove box but in a locked case.

Last edited Thu Mar 15, 2012, 12:04 PM - Edit history (1)

It takes me 5-7 seconds to retrieve the handgun and have it at the ready.

Its a sad, tragic, and possibly criminal mistake the father in the story made.

I use this model (cost just $30) and effectively keeps my six year old safe:
[IMG][/IMG]

I hope to upgrade to this biometric micro vault soon:
[IMG][/IMG]


BTW: These make great baby shower gifts. Baby's are expensive and sometimes people put off baby proofing their guns because of other pressing needs. When I know someone who owns guns and is about to have a child, I give them as presents.

[ellisonz]

40. Question

Ever get anyone who you gave a safe as a gift, kinda be like why are you giving me this?

[Clames]

42. Better question.

Did you read that out loud before you posted that?

[ellisonz]

43. Even better question.

Why do you give a rats-ass about minor typos and grammatical errors?

[Clames]

44. Best question.

Why did you even ask the question you did in the first place? If someone gave me such a gift I'd be quite happy and pleased they were so thoughtful. Seems the obvious answer though probably not one you'd like...

[ellisonz]

45. Do you realize what thread you're in? n/t

[Clames]

46. Of course.

Now answer the question

[ellisonz]

49. If you can't see the irony in your question...

...I really don't know what to say other than: bite me.

[oneshooter]

50. Again with the gun grabbers answer to "civil discourse".

[aikoaiko]

53. Often the recipient's first reaction is surprised and/or confused, but then they put it together.

Its about the keeping the child safe and they usually give me one of those very knowing smiles.

Sometimes the other guests at the shower don't get it.

[ellisonz]

54. That's a good thing you do!

Yeah, I was curious about the kinda social dynamics of such a gift, considering how seriously many take gift giving. I think it certainly is an interesting idea.

[aikoaiko]

56. Thank you.

It much more satisfying to me than buying something in pink or blue plastic. And gun owners really appreciate receiving them as gifts.

[GreenStormCloud]

55. About 50 children 12 and under are killed in firearms accidents annually.

Since there are about 50 million children in the U.S. then the odds of any particular child dieing are about one in a million.

[Starboard Tack]

58. Children' deaths are statistically insignificant? Nice one GSC.

Who cares about 50 children, when 6 million adults can have fun carrying their guns around.
Tell your grand kids that.

[GreenStormCloud]

59. Actually it is about 10 million that have CCWs.

Further, you don't really care about child deaths or you would be concerned over things that kill lots more children than accidental gunshots.

[Starboard Tack]

61. I'm concerned about all children and loss of innocent life.

There are no accidents with gunshots. You own a gun, all the responsibility and consequences come with it. You carry a gun, expect someone might get shot. If it's you that gets shot, don't expect any sympathy. If it's a child, don't expect any forgiveness.

[GreenStormCloud]

62. I do accept responsibility for my gun...

...and for my car, and my pestidides, and my medicines, and so on.

[Starboard Tack]

64. I'm happy to hear that.

So, please don't accuse me of "not caring about child deaths". It is offensive.

[GreenStormCloud]

66. So why aren't you campaigning to have swimming pools banned?

Or at least highly regulated. Here are some suggestions:

Filled only when in actual use.
Certified life guard on duty at all times when filled.
Children not allowed to be unsupervised.
Children not allowed in water deeper than their chest.
Children under 8 must wear floatation devices.
Owner of pool must have pool license.

Are you aware that more children die from accident involving walking (165) versus 51 for firearms. You should be over three times as concerned about the dangers of walking.

[Starboard Tack]

67. What does any of that have to do with guns?

I'm not in the Gungeon to talk about swimming pools.
Why do those who support gun proliferation always try to divert when the conversation becomes uncomfortable? Very telling.

[Straw Man]

68. Who's diverting now?

I'm not in the Gungeon to talk about swimming pools.
Why do those who support gun proliferation always try to divert when the conversation becomes uncomfortable? Very telling.

You're the one who claims to be concerned for the welfare of children. Apparently your concern is very selective and only activates when the threat is from guns. That's the point here.

"Those who support gun proliferation"? Just more intellectually dishonest shucking and jiving.

Does that offend you?

Very telling.

[Starboard Tack]

69. What on earth are you talking about?

We are talking here about children dying from gunshot wounds. This is the Gungeon. We discuss guns and gun violence here, not fucking swimming pools. I'm sure there are lots of places where we can talk about swimming pools. What, pray tell, is "intellectually dishonest" about pointing out that "Those who support gun proliferation" obviously contribute to overall gun violence. Guns in public places, especially handguns, have a tendency to kill people when used according to instructions. Maybe you hadn't noticed or don't care. Children getting killed or killing each other or themselves with handguns offends me big time and dodging that by talking about fucking swimming pools offends me even more. Shame on you for trying to say I'm dodging. You think I put the gun in the kids hands? You think I encouraged his father to carry a gun around? If I supported that kind of shit, I wouldn't be sleeping very well. I'd be hiding in shame.

[Straw Man]

70. Touched a nerve, did I?

I'm talking about your selective concern and the intellectually dishonest emotional blackmail you consistently engage in. Your rant is a textbook example of the half-truths and distortions that are the stock-in-trade of prohibitionists.

What, pray tell, is "intellectually dishonest" about pointing out that "Those who support gun proliferation" obviously contribute to overall gun violence.

Distortion Number One, because no one here is supporting "gun proliferation." I couldn't care less if you or anyone else owns or carries a gun. I do care that you and I and they should have the right to. There's a difference between saying "I believe that responsible people should be able to carry guns" and saying "I think there should be more guns out there." The latter is "supporting gun proliferation," as per your canard. The former is not. See the difference?

Guns in public places, especially handguns, have a tendency to kill people when used according to instructions.

Distorion Number Two, because I have read many user's manuals for handguns and other firearms, and I have yet to see one that ends with "Now go out and kill someone."

Maybe you hadn't noticed or don't care.

Have noticed, do care. Am not offended because this kind of hysterical pseudo-moral grandstanding says more about the purveyor than it does about the purported object.

Children getting killed or killing each other or themselves with handguns offends me big time and dodging that by talking about fucking swimming pools offends me even more.

Translation: "I care about children getting killed by handguns, and not by anything else." Got it.

Shame on you for trying to say I'm dodging.

I'll say it again: You're dodging. I'm not in the least ashamed.

You think I put the gun in the kids hands? You think I encouraged his father to carry a gun around? If I supported that kind of shit, I wouldn't be sleeping very well. I'd be hiding in shame.

And that's your biggest, fattest distortion and the ultimate canard: that anyone who doesn't support your prohibitionist program is "supporting" the death of children. Bullshit, pure and simple, and you know it.

Safety is safety, and irresponsibility is irresponsibility. Attempting to make it uniquely about guns is disingenuous and, yes, intellectually dishonest.

[gejohnston]

63. I don't know about where this guy lives

but leaving a child unattended in a vehicle at all is neglect in some places. This is especially true on a military base.

[Starboard Tack]

65. Technically he wasn't left unattended

Dad was at the gas pump, but a 3 year old should have been strapped in, especially with a loaded gun in the car.
Mom went into the store, so any signs saying "NO GUNS" wouldn't affect Dad pumping gas.

[gejohnston]

71. unless it was mom carrying

The fact that the kid was not strapped in is also a violation.

[slackmaster]

60. A three-year-old was given unsupervised access to an unlocked car?