From the CDC...

[beevul]

National vital statistics reports.

Deaths: Final; data for 2013.

The top 15 causes of death, in order, are:

1.Heart disease – 611,105
2.Malignant neoplasms (cancer) – 584,881
3.Chronic lower respiratory diseases – 149,205
4.Accidents (unintentional injuries) – 130,557
5.Cerebrovascular diseases - 128,978
6.Alzheimer’s – 84,767
7.Diabetes – 75,578
8.Flu and pneumonia – 56,979
9.Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis – 47,112
10.Suicide – 41,149
11.Septicemia - 38,156
12.Liver disease & cirrhosis – 36,427
13.Hypertension – 30,770
14.Parkinson’s – 25,196
15.Pneumonitis due to solids and liquids 18,579

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf

Shooting doesn't seem to make the top 15.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

1. Banning guns because of shootings...

...would be like banning hearts because of heart disease.

(where's that hyperbole smiley)

[sarisataka]

2. But anonymous internet posters

assured me shootings are epidemic. Who should I believe

[jmg257]

3. That' strange as they list: All firearm deaths Number of deaths: 33,636

Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.6

Which includes this...
Firearm suicides
Number of deaths: 21,175 Deaths per 100,000 population: 6.7
Assault (homicide) by discharge of firearms: 11,208
Accidental discharge of firearms: 505

[beevul]

4. Keyword being 'cause'. N/T

[jmg257]

5. Ah - gotcha. "Shooting" is only mentioned once in the whole report.

"In 2013, deaths from the Boston Marathon bombing and related
shooting of a police officer..."


Hmm...wonder how many of those firearm deaths were beat downs!

[russ1943]

6. Also from the CDC

The 33,636 Shooting deaths, referred to as firearms deaths by the CDC, would be thirteenth on your unconnected list.
Injury mortality by mechanism and intent
In 2013, a total of 192,945 deaths were classified as injury-related (Table 18).
Four major mechanisms of injury in 2013—poisoning, motor-vehicle traffic, firearm, and fall— accounted for 76.3% of all injury deaths.
All injury deaths 192,945 61.0
Poisoning 48,545 15.4
Motor vehicle traffic 33,804 10.7
Firearm 33,636 10.6
Fall 31,240 9.9


As gun enthusiasts seem to find the inclusion of suicides in firearm death statistics objectionable, gun control advocates (and the CDC) find the comparison of heart disease, cancer et al to gun deaths, well unconnected & absurd.
Assault (homicide), the 16th leading cause of death since 2010, dropped from among the 15 leading causes of death in 2010 but is still a major issue for some age groups.

[beevul]

7. "Objectionable"

As gun enthusiasts seem to find the inclusion of suicides in firearm death statistics objectionable...

Heres the reason why: Because suicides and homicides have different causes.

Lumping them together ignores those differing causes, and casts a large shadow of doubt on the sincerity you and your buddies claim toward wanting to reduce "gun deaths".

In short, your actions betray your intentions.

As a second reason, I support people being able to take their own lives for any reason. It is THEIR life and their body after all, just as a womans body belongs to her alone.

[russ1943]

9. An attempt to enlighten a gun enthusiast is futility defined.

You post in response to my comment: In short, your actions betray your intentions.
I’m glad my actions betray my intentions, which clearly were an attempt to point out that at the very least you presented a distortion of known facts.

Your OP “From the CDC...National vital statistics reports. Deaths: Final; data for 2013. The top 15 causes of death, in order, are::” and your comment that Shooting doesn't seem to make the top 15.

I post that firearms deaths (shooting deaths) in that same report would be thirteenth on your unconnected list.

You note that suicides and homicides have different causes. Duh………..So what? Providing accurate information was/is my intention. That some are unable to understand that suicide, homicide, unintentional, undetermined and legal intervention in CDC reports are subsets of firearms deaths is a mistake on their part, not mine. An understanding of classification and categorizing as done in this case by the CDC seems to be the problem. There’s no nefarious purpose in “lumping” suicide and homicide in the same category. They are both firearms deaths. PERIOD.
From the CDC
In this case injury deaths have two dimensions; the mechanism of the injury and its manner or intent. Firearm is the mechanism under discussion. falls, motor vehicle traffic, or poisoning are some others (None on your list). The manner or intent involves whether the injury was purposefully inflicted (where it can be determined) and, when intentional, whether the injury was self-inflicted (suicide) or inflicted upon another person (assault).
IMO there’s philosophical perspective in that gun enthusiasts tend to think of homicide in their discussion of gun deaths, gun control advocates seem to be more concerned with all of the components of gun deaths which includes suicides.

[friendly_iconoclast]

10. Would it somehow be better if gun suicides used other methods to do themselves in...

...a la Japan?

If not, your objections are mere quibbling.

[pablo_marmol]

12. "An attempt to enlighten a gun enthusiast is futility defined."

Should that come as any surprise when The Enlightener is a willfully ignorant, emotion-baiting hyperbolic?

[beevul]

14. Reading is fundamental, russel.

I’m glad my actions betray my intentions, which clearly were an attempt to point out that at the very least you presented a distortion of known facts.

Are you accusing the CDC of distorting the facts? Pimping for the nra now are they?

Your OP “From the CDC...National vital statistics reports. Deaths: Final; data for 2013. The top 15 causes of death, in order, are::” and your comment that Shooting doesn't seem to make the top 15.

I'm pretty sure when the CDC says "cause" they mean "root cause", not "deaths by instrument".

I post that firearms deaths (shooting deaths) in that same report would be thirteenth on your unconnected list.

Its not my list, its the CDCs list.

You note that suicides and homicides have different causes. Duh………..So what?

And there you have it. "So what".

That some are unable to understand that suicide, homicide, unintentional, undetermined and legal intervention in CDC reports are subsets of firearms deaths is a mistake on their part, not mine.

Again, this list isn't death by instrument, its death by cause.

An understanding of classification and categorizing as done in this case by the CDC seems to be the problem.

Yes, you know better than the CDC.

There’s no nefarious purpose in “lumping” suicide and homicide in the same category. They are both firearms deaths. PERIOD.

Yes, there most certainly is. Its a deliberate tactic to inflate numbers. If it were otherwise, you lot would be screaming about "rope violence" and "exhaust violence" and "bridge violence" and "OTC drug overdose violence". Nice try though.

IMO there’s philosophical perspective in that gun enthusiasts tend to think of homicide in their discussion of gun deaths, gun control advocates seem to be more concerned with all of the components of gun deaths which includes suicides.

Ohh, cute. Imply that 'gun enthusiasts' only care about homicides. Gee, that's fresh and new.

Heres the philosophical difference russel:

People you call "gun enthusiasts" tend to look at suicides and homicides as having different causes, and therefore require different solutions. "Gun control" advocates, on the other hand, lump them all together in 1 general number, and screech and howl in rage when people point out that they're two different things. Then they infer that suicides do not matter to those who point out that they're different, as you slyly tried to imply.

Go ahead and do a DU search for "suicides don't count", and you'll find those words spewed accusingly, by people like you who lump them together, at people like us who differentiate.

I think that says about everything that needs saying.

[jimmy the one]

17. warped

beevul: Because suicides and homicides have different causes. Lumping them together ignores those differing causes, and casts a large shadow of doubt on the sincerity you and your buddies claim toward wanting to reduce "gun deaths".
... In short, your actions betray your intentions.

Well, the subdivision suicide total by firearm apparently is 21,175, which would place it right at the #15 marker, does it not?

2013 Intentional self-harm (suicide) ..... 41,149
Intentional self-harm (suicide) by discharge of firearms .......... 21,175
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf

beevul's list: 14.Parkinson’s – 25,196
15.Pneumonitis due to solids and liquids 18,579

beevul: Again, this list isn't death by instrument, its death by cause.

Strained reasoning. Subdividing suicide gets firearm suicide as the #15 cause.

2013 Assault (homicide) ........ 16,121
Assault (homicide) by discharge of firearms ..........11,208
Assault (homicide) by other and unspecified means .. 4,913

beevul: Lumping them together ignores those differing causes,

Yet here, beevul, the CDC list you cite lumps influenza and pneumonia together as one cause, are you throwing your violation flag on yourself? your list has it #8.Flu and pneumonia – 56,979:
Influenza and pneumonia ....... 56,979
... Influenza ......................... 3,697
... Pneumonia ..................... 53,282
Influenza is an infection mainly affecting the nose, throat, airways, and lungs.
Pneumonia is an inflammation of one or both lungs, usually caused by an infection.

And why is #15 not in sync somehow with the aforementioned #8? as well as specifying the 'instrument' of ingestion as cause:
15. Pneumonitis due to solids and liquids 18,579
Pneumonitis is a term that refers to lung tissue inflammation due to factors other than a microbial infection

Pls explain these apparent discrepancies; the predominance of the suicide affliction would be 'suicide by firearm'.

beevul: As a second reason, I support people being able to take their own lives for any reason.

Just curious, are you voting for donald trump this year? (my bet); or our beloveds hillary or bernie?
High school grads get jilted for the prom, depressed, but OK by beevul if they wanna, eh?
Even assisted suicide doctors do not concur with beevul's warped mentality on this.

[friendly_iconoclast]

18. "Gun control advocates only ever express concern about suicide when guns are involved"

Thanks for proving the point I made in post #11...

[beevul]

19. So much bla bla bla, so little substance.

High school grads get jilted for the prom, depressed, but OK by beevul if they wanna, eh?

Ok? No, I don't want anyone to take their own life, however, the lives of others belong to those others, not to you or me or society.

A presumption otherwise, as you have so aptly demonstrated, is the textbook definition of warped (in addition to the anti-gun mindset).

[jimmy the one]

20. re your repugnant position

beevul wrote, post 7: I support people being able to take their own lives for any reason. It is THEIR life and their body after all, just as a womans body belongs to her alone.

I replied: High school grads get jilted for the prom, depressed, but OK by beevul if they wanna, eh?

beevul replied: No, I don't want anyone to take their own life, however, the lives of others belong to those others, not to you or me or society.
A presumption otherwise, as you have so aptly demonstrated, is the textbook definition of warped (in addition to the anti-gun mindset).

I presumed only what you yourself wrote, that it would be OK for someone to "take their own lives for any reason". Which would obviously include impulsive suicides based on a temporary setback. Which is an asinine position to take, which is you in your nutshell. You never heard the axiom that 'suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem'? usually the case.
Even assisted suicide doctors will only consent if the suicidal patient is deemed a forlorn hope.
You are ineptly trying to defend suicidal patients right to die, with suicides in general. You desperately need to reword your repugnant position on this.

[beevul]

21. Repugnant only to those that presume they have some binding interest in the lives of others.

Last edited Thu Mar 24, 2016, 02:30 PM - Edit history (1)

re your repugnant position

Repugnant only to those that presume they have some binding interest in the lives of others.

That would be you.

I presumed only what you yourself wrote, that it would be OK for someone to "take their own lives for any reason". Which would obviously include impulsive suicides based on a temporary setback.

No. A requisite of your position, is an assumed binding interest in the individual lives of others.

And you do assume such a thing, let there be no doubt.

Which is an asinine position to take, which is you in your nutshell. You never heard the axiom that 'suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem'? usually the case.

Aww, the predictable personal attack. It must be terrible for you to have your fee-fees hurt so badly that you can't stop yourself from lashing out. I wont even alert, because it amuses me to have it shown for all to see.

Even assisted suicide doctors will only consent if the suicidal patient is deemed a forlorn hope.

Doctors are acting as licensed agents of the State, not individual citizens, in that context. Apples and oranges.

You are ineptly trying to defend suicidal patients right to die, with suicides in general.

The only thing inept here, is you bothering to try to trade blows with me. Dunning-Kruger in effect for all to see, right there.

And trying? Excuse me, but if people have the right to life, they also have a right to end that life. Just as freedom of religion includes freedom from religion, the right to life includes the right to end that life.

I can't help it if you're not sharp enough to rub two conceptual sticks together to generate a little intellectual warmth...that's entirely on you.

You desperately need to reword your repugnant position on this.

Fat chance little fella.

[Eleanors38]

15. Here's some "futility" from Webster's def. of "epidemic"...

1. an outbreak of a disease that spreads quickly and affects many individuals at the same time... 2. an outbreak or product of sudden rapid spread, growth or developmemt.

Since homicides have been on 20+ year decline, it appears there is no spreading or growth, rapid or otherwise, over-use of the disease metaphor not withstanding.

But Webster was a life-long member of da NRA, I heard

[friendly_iconoclast]

16. +1. You have demonstrated that pious fraud is part and parcel of gun control advocacy

[sarisataka]

8. Strangely when Europe looks at US firearm deaths

they don't lump homicide and suicide together either.

In a country with more than 300 million firearms, there were at least 13,381 firearm deaths in 2015.

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/why-the-us-love-affair-with-guns-concerns-us-all-and-25-curious-facts-1.2526747

Perhaps they realize homicide and suicide are very different actions, even if the means overlap.

[friendly_iconoclast]

11. Gun control advocates only ever express concern about suicide when guns are involved...

...and ignore it in countries whose gun laws they admire. Japan and Canada are the most
obvious examples.

The disinterested reader is invited to explore the links to be found at the following:

https://www.google.com/search?q=suicide+rates+worldwide%2C+by+country&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

...where they will note that some otherwise quite pleasant-seeming countries have higher
suicide rates that the supposedly 'gun-addled' US...

[virginia mountainman]

13. That's NRA TALKING POINTS™

Or something like that, it gets so confusing at times with them.