Obama: US gun violence 33 times that of Israel

[SecularMotion]

In the wake of a shooting at a South Carolina church last week, US President Barack Obama on Saturday called for action to reduce US gun violence, noting that the homicide rate in America was far higher than other developed countries, and 33 times that of Israel.

The president’s remarks on Twitter came days after 21-year-old Dylann Roof allegedly entered a historic African-American church in Charleston, South Carolina and shot nine worshipers dead, and injured a tenth. An online “manifesto” ascribed to him rails against African-Americans and “Jewish agitation of the black race.”

“Here are the stats,” Obama said on Twitter. “Per population, we kill each other with guns at a rate 297x more than Japan, 49x more than France, 33x more than Israel.”

“Expressions of sympathy aren’t enough. It’s time we do something about this,” he said.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/obama-us-gun-violence-33-times-that-of-israel/

[OakCliffDem]

1. So what is SecularMotion's solution? Mandate everyone become Jewish?

Chagiga!

[Shamash]

2. Interestingly enough

The rate at which we murder each other without using guns is also higher than in all these countries.

Kinda makes you wonder if the problem is not the method but the underlying societal framework. But working to change that takes a higher IQ than merely banning something you don't like.

Well, that eliminates one group of DU'ers from being part of the solution. If only they were smart enough to realize it...

[Eleanors38]

21. In Austin, 2012 saw the No. 1 choice of murder weapon go to...

knife or sharp-edged instrument. Must be all those West Coast newcomers.

[the band leader]

3. "More than 11,000 Americans were killed by gun violence in 2013 alone"

Obama said: “More than 11,000 Americans were killed by gun violence in 2013 alone. 11,000.”

In 2013, approximately 9,000 people overdosed on heroin and died. Another 25,000 people overdosed on prescription medications and died. Approximately 5,000 overdosed on cocaine and died. Another 7,000 people overdosed on some form of benzodiazepine and died.

Nearly 88,0009 people (approximately 62,000 men and 26,000 women10) die from alcohol-related causes annually, making it the third leading preventable cause of death in the United States.

In 2013, alcohol-impaired driving fatalities accounted for 10,076 deaths (30.8 percent of overall driving fatalities).

Though hard data isn't readily available, it is safe to assume that a large percentage of those homicides were drug and alcohol related.

Based on all of this, I have to conclude that America has more of a substance abuse problem than gun control problem.

Not including the, undoubtedly high percentage of drug related homicides that aren't accurately tracked, approximately 144,000 people died as a result of drugs and alcohol in 2013, 13 times the number of people killed by firearms, yet all we hear about is gun violence. What's worse, the solutions to gun violence commonly being put forth are not aimed at criminals, they are primarily aimed at law abiding citizens and will have zero impact on firearms related homicides.

another interesting fact:, despite the fact that the number of law abiding citizens walking around carrying guns has increased over the past 20 years thanks to concealed carry laws, the numbers of people murdered with firearms has actually decreased dramatically over the same period of time as evidenced by the following graph:

[Shamash]

4. Don't step on the delicate flowers

If they realized that there are over 10 million concealed carry permits nationwide and had the math skills to understand this is about 5% of the adult population, they might eventually figure out that they get close to dozens of civilians with concealed guns...every day.

Knowing that, they might socially regress to where they hurl out random insults, dodge questions, have attacks of cognitive dissonance and project their fear and insecurity onto others rather than face it head-on. Heaven forbid that should happen.

Remember, reality has a liberal bias and they are doing their damnedest to be the least biased people on DU.

[the band leader]

8. Or the eggshells.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

14. I have long made the argument about how alcohol

leads to DUIs, domestic violence, sexual assault, child abuse and other alcohol-fueled crimes. To suggest the reinstatement of Prohibition is reflexively considered foolish to the point where it would never be seriously suggested in a debate.

Yet, alcohol is strictly recreational. There is no fundamental human right to intoxication unlike the fundamental right to self-defense.

Moreover, if so many are willing to operate outside the law strictly for the sake of recreation wouldn't it follow that those seeking to defend their families would do likewise.

[the band leader]

15. Booze and drug related death isn't as sensational as a mass shooting so nobody pays attention to it

despite the fact that it is a much larger problem.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

16. The subtext of your accurate observation is --

Death only has value when it serves the self-interest of those reporting it; whether it be political power or ratings based on sensationalism.

Yet, those of us who only seek to defend ourselves and our families are called the callous ones with no sincere regard for the dead.

I say that is nothing but projection.

[the band leader]

19. I have seen several friends and family members die over the years

and they pretty much all died as a direct or indirect result of alcohol, tobacco, and/or drugs. I don't know anyone that ever died by a firearm. The town I live in has had one murder in the past 80 years and it involved a blunt instrument. I have a better chance of winning the lottery than I do of being shot.

[jimmy the one]

26. less gun rates, less violent crime rates

band leader: .. despite the fact that the number of law abiding citizens walking around carrying guns has increased over the past 20 years thanks to concealed carry laws, the numbers of people murdered with firearms has actually decreased dramatically over the same period of time as evidenced by the following graph:

Your graph measured violent crime rates, not murder rates, so your tailing is not 'evidenced by' your graph, altho it's a true factoid. Murder & murder rate is incorporated into violent crime index & VCr rates.
You also don't yet understand, band leader, that american gun ownership rates have fallen dramatically since approx. 1992, and have fallen from even earlier when your graph begins in 1986, which better explains why the violent crime rates have ALSO declined since then so dramatically.
It's more like 'LESS GUN OWNERSHIP RATE, LESS VIOLENT CRIME RATE'.
Oh, and violent crime rate tripled to doubled in Montana since shall issue enacted, WVa doubled, both Dakotas doubled (ND now ~4 times higher than when shall issue enacted, or is it Sdak). St Louis city enacted shall issue 2005 & next year became city with highest violent crime rate in the country, number one.

Your graph, band leader, is purely junk science. It fabricates the illusion that concealed carry is a contributing reason for the drop in violent crime rates. You even contradict yourself for the graph's first 6 years 1986 to 1992, where shall issue percentage rose ~150% and violent crime rate rose ~25%, and murder rate also rose ~10%. Wha' happen 1986 to 1992, band leader?
Here are two other graphs to look over, where gallup & gss, & pew by affidavit, agree that gun ownership rates declined about 30% from the period ~1992 thru 2000 (the Clinton years), the very years which your graph shows the most dramatic decline in violent crime rate (dropping ~35%).
That is a correlation between ~30% dropping gun ownership rates, with ~35% dropping violent crime rate.


The Pew Research Center has tracked gun ownership since 1993, and our {PEW} surveys largely confirm the {GSS} General Social Survey trend. In our Dec1993 survey, 45% reported having a gun in their household; in early 1994, the GSS found 44% saying they had a gun in their home. A Jan2013 Pew survey found 33% saying they had a gun, rifle or pistol in their home, as did 34% in the 2012 wave of {GSS}. http://www.people-press.org/2013/03/12/section-3-gun-ownership-trends-and-demographics/ --- pg4;

[the band leader]

27. more concealed carry- less violent crime

Last edited Tue Jun 23, 2015, 02:30 AM - Edit history (1)

1986-1992 was the height of the cocaine wars. Those were the years and the events that birthed the present concealed carry movement and the movie Scarface. Again, we see that America's subtance abuse problem is like rocket fuel for America's violent crime issue. It was the Colmbian cartels in 1986-1992. Today it is the Mexican cartels fueling the violence. It isn't Chuck's guns causing problems, it's the Cartel's drugs.

And keep in mind, every time you try to ban firearms, you end up creating millions of more guns and losing elections. Your fail is epic.

[jimmy the one]

28. the rise of the semi automatic

band leader: 1986-1992 was the height of the cocaine wars. Those were the years and the events that birthed the present concealed carry movement and the movie Scarface.

You're arguing cocaine wars were a good reason for higher violent crime rates from 1986 to ~1993? to absolve shall issue concealed carry? Violent crime rates increased about 20% from 86-93, but increased much more, 200% - 400%, from the propagation of semi-automatic pistols & semi-auto rifles replacing revolvers & bolt actions, from the 60's & 70's thru the early 90's (when gun ownership began to decline dramatically). The semi-auto craze had more to do with higher violent crime rate & murder rate rise, than the contributing catalytic drug issue.

1960: violcrime rate: 161 .. Semi-automatic firearms
1966: violcrime rate: 220 .. Semi-auto coming into vogue
1976: ..................... 468 .. Semi-auto en vogue
1980: ...................... 597 .. Semi-autos in full swing.
1986: ....................... 620 - 87, 610 - 88, 637 - 89, 637
1990: ...................... 732 -- 91, 758 -- 92, 758
2013 ......................... 368 .. TWICE the 1960's rate
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

band leader: Again, we see that America's subtance abuse problem is like rocket fuel for America's violent crime issue.

Contributing certainly, but also fueled & enhanced by the replacement of 'slow shooters' like revolvers & bolt action rifles, with semi-auto firearms, gaining strength by the 70's.

band leader: And keep in mind, every time you try to ban firearms, you end up creating millions of more guns and losing elections.

Well then we dems have never really been the ones to have created 'millions of more guns' then have we? nor has your fabricated premise been the reason elections were lost, were they?
Millions more guns are indeed created by gun control efforts, but to fuel the paranoid demand from largely existing gun owners, who are the ones responsible (& stupid & gullible enough) for making the gun industry thrive. Personal gun ownership is down the past couple decades 35% or more.
Your remark is specious & simply a part of your 2nd amendment mythology. If this were so Obama would never have been elected, nor Clinton, since the nra said the same thing of them.

jul 2012: A study published in the Injury Prevention Journal, based on a 2004 National Firearms Survey, found that 20% of the gun owners with the most firearms possessed about 65% of the nation's guns.http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/31/politics/gun-ownership-declining/

That would mean (2004 approx. stds) ~18 million gun owners owned ~160 million guns, while the remaining ~60 million gun owners owned the remaining ~80 million guns.
Using todays figures, if still holding, approx. 20 million gun owners own ~200 million guns, while 80 million own 100 million.

[jimmy the one]

29. epic fail to remove the egg

band leader: Your fail is epic.

According to who? you? you who didn't address most all of the points I made but rambled onto some tangential excuses re drugs, as if drugs weren't about in the 70's?
I believe we also have another con artist in our midst, employing the tactic in which a GN is caught in an obvious lie or misconception, then fails to acknowledge them, but by diversion fobs blame onto his adversary who exposed his errors, so as to exculpate his own culpas & save face & hide some of the egg on it. It was the Columbian cartels, but only from 86 - 92, or the Mexican cartels, or Scarface movie, but never, never, the guns.

Fact Check, 2012: National Research Council, 2004: The initial model specification, when extended to new data, does not show evidence that passage of right-to-carry laws reduces crime. The estimated effects are highly sensitive to seemingly minor changes in the model specification and control variables. No link between right-to-carry laws and changes in crime is apparent in the raw data, even in the initial sample; it is only once numerous covariates are included that the negative results in the early data emerge.
While the trend models show a reduction in the crime growth rate following the adoption of right-to-carry laws, these trend reductions occur long after law adoption, casting serious doubt on the proposition that the trend models estimated in the literature reflect effects of the law change. Finally, some of the point estimates are imprecise. Thus, the committee concludes that with the current evidence it is not possible to determine that there is a causal link between the passage of right-to-carry laws and crime rates. http://www.factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/

[the band leader]

30. there's a con artist here but it isn't me

I never explicitly stated that the graph meant that concealed carry caused a lower incidence of violent crime. I posted the graph with the intent of showing that A.) violent crime has been decreasing for many years and B.) violent crime is presently at the lowest point in decades despite the rising incidence of concealed carry and C.) to support my premise that substance abuse is a far larger problem than gun violence. The gun violence problem is the illusion. Though it exists, it pales in comparison to the substance abuse problem and is, in all actuality, nothing but a fabricated excuse ( a con IOW) to justify more gun control which does not necessarily result in lower crime as evidenced by the graph you have taken exception to.

but rambled onto some tangential excuses re drugs, as if drugs weren't about in the 70's?

In my initial post, I made the case that the existing gun violence problem is actually decreasing (despite the increased incidence of concealed carry) and is secondary to a much larger and more pernicious drug problem and this decreasing gun violence problem pales in comparison to this problem. That was my whole point and you chose to ignore it and, instead, chose to go off on your own tangent. If you don't want to respond to my initial point, don't - but don't get belligerent when I choose to stay on topic and decline to join you on your tangent.

[jimmy the one]

31. gun violence problem not an illusion

band leader: In my initial post, I made the case that the existing gun violence problem is actually decreasing (despite the increased incidence of concealed carry) and is secondary to a much larger and more pernicious drug problem and this decreasing gun violence problem pales in comparison to this problem. That was my whole point and you chose to ignore it and, instead, chose to go off on your own tangent.

I did not ignore that, I addressed what you refer to; I clearly noted: .. american gun ownership rates have fallen dramatically since approx. 1992, and have fallen from even earlier when your graph begins in 1986, which better explains why the violent crime rates have ALSO declined since then so dramatically.

I also wrote: ........ gallup & gss, & pew by affidavit, agree that gun ownership rates declined about 30% from the period ~1992 thru 2000 (the Clinton years), the very years which your graph shows the most dramatic decline in violent crime rate (dropping ~35%).

I also wrote that the drug problem was a contributing catalyst to rising violent crime, while guns of course were the 'execute' function. Especially developing semi auto pistols & rifles.
You should realize by now it was you who didn't address my rebuttals, especially falling gun ownership rates which coincidentally coincide with rising shall issue ccw rates.
Another point re your graph, which fairly accurately has 70% representing the population living in shall issue & anyone issued states. The remaining 30% live in may issue states (or proh'd Illinois for your graph years exc 2011), gun control states which have seen the larger drops in violent crime rates since the early 90's, thus the greater decline in violent crime rates is due moreso to large states like calif & new York experiencing larger percentage VCr drops, than avg of progun states. This would counter your argument. You are taking credit for dramatic declines in violent crime rates, without giving credit to gun control states which were moreso the reason (I will try to put together a brief chart later, no time today).

band leader: The gun violence problem is the illusion. Though it exists, it pales in comparison to the substance abuse problem and is, in all actuality, nothing but a fabricated excuse (a con IOW) to justify more gun control which does not necessarily result in lower crime as evidenced by the graph you have taken exception to.

As I just wrote, gun control states contributed moreso to the percentage decline, than pro gun states. So no, your graph does not do what you contend it does in your last sentence. It does not break down gun control states vs pro gun states. And of course it cannot take into account that national gunstock has risen but concomitantly largely gone to existing gun owners.
The gun violence problem is not an illusion.

band leader: If you don't want to respond to my initial point, don't - but don't get belligerent when I choose to stay on topic and decline to join you on your tangent.

If you can't comprehend when someone does indeed counter your points, don't tapdance your way out of it.

[the band leader]

32. The scope of the problem is the illusion.

I clearly noted: .. american gun ownership rates have fallen dramatically since approx. 1992, and have fallen from even earlier when your graph begins in 1986,

But the number of law abiding people walking around on the streets lawfully carrying a firearm concealed or otherwise has never been higher and grows higher every year. I think that is far more relevant than the number of people who openly admit to owning firearms in a telephone survey.

which better explains why the violent crime rates have ALSO declined since then so dramatically.

again, I never even suggested that concealed carry was the cause of the decreasing violent crime rate.-only that violent crime is decreasing despite the fact that more people are walking around lawfully carrying firearms. A number of conclusions can be drawn from this fact.

Especially developing semi auto pistols & rifles.
Semi-automatic handguns and rifles have been around for over a hundred years. The typical semi-automatic pistol is not inherently more lethal than a revolver. Indeed, the .357 magnum revolver holds the unofficial record for most "one shot stops". The 9mm automatic is actually quite anemic and much less lethal than the standard .357 magnum revolver or .44 magnum revolver. The .45 is acp is not much different.


gun control states which have seen the larger drops in violent crime rates since the early 90's, thus the greater decline in violent crime rates is due moreso to large states like calif & new York experiencing larger percentage VCr drops, than avg of progun states.
You are attempting to give credit where credit is not due. Falling crime rates have little to nothing to do with gun control measures directed at law abiding citizens. 3 strikes and your out type laws account far more for the drop in crime. Furthermore, if you look at the gun control states more critically, you see that violent crime has actually increased in the areas plagued with drugs and gangs. Look at Los Angeles for example where violent crime rose 14.3% in 2014. There's plenty of gun control in Los Angeles. there's also a large and growing culture of drugs and crime. In Chicago, shootings have increased 2 years in a row though actual murder has decreased. There's plenty of gun control in Illinois. Again we see, gun control directed against law abiding citizens does nothing to prevent criminals from obtaining guns and using them to shoot people.


The gun violence problem is not an illusion.
the scope of the problem is very much an illusion. Substance abuse is a much larger health problem and accounts for the bulk of the gun violence one way or the other


If you can't comprehend when someone does indeed counter your points, don't tapdance your way out of it.
You've not countered anything.

[jimmy the one]

33. widespread acceptance well after wwII

band leader: .. the number of law abiding people walking around on the streets lawfully carrying a firearm concealed or otherwise has never been higher and grows higher every year. I think that is far more relevant than the number of people who openly admit to owning firearms in a telephone survey.

Appears about 5% of all americans have a ccw permit, perhaps ~7% of adults nationwide; tho your premise above is faulty since not all ccw permit owners walk around the streets carrying. Some goodly percentage own just to have the permit, or to use when deemed necessary. IOW, ~93% of americans don't want to carry a concealed firearm; if that's skyrocketing, take the bus.
The following would be a minimum population, since 'anyone can carry' states not included, tack on a couple million more I suppose: jul 2014: .. report from the Crime Prevention Research Center.. finds that 11.1 million Americans now have permits to carry concealed weapons.. rightwing reporting: http://washington.cbslocal.com/2014/07/10/report-number-of-concealed-carry-permits-surges-as-violent-crime-rate-drops/

bandleader: far more relevant than the number of people who openly admit to owning firearms in a telephone survey

There were '3' surveys, from fairly reputable sources pew, gss, & gallup, tho gallup has, past decade, slid slightly to the right it's been reported. Polls do allow for underreporting, both a percent or two (as 'not sure') as well as margin of error.
The gun ownership rate is of far more use regarding violent crime trends, than concealed pistol permit rates, of which a solid percentage of owners don't even carry regularly, some just want to possess the permit.

bandleader:Semi-automatic handguns and rifles have been around for over a hundred years.

Oh please, not prototypes in early stages of development; sophisticated semi auto pistols did not achieve widespread acceptance until after wwII: During World War II, revolvers were still issued by various major powers, but their use was decreasing.. After World War II most nations eventually adopted 9mm caliber pistols >> for their standard-issue military pistols .. After {wwII}, the almost universal trend has been for semi-automatic pistols to replace revolvers for military use, although the transition has been slower in police and civilian use.
... In 1971 Smith & Wesson offered a safe double-action, high-capacity pistol, the Model 59. CZ-75 in 1975. Beretta introduced the Beretta 92 also in 1975.. groundbreaking Glock 17 in 1982, and SIG Sauer model P226 in 1983. Walther introduced their high-capacity P88 in 1988. In the early 1990s Heckler & Koch combined what they considered to be the most desirable attributes of semi-autos.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-automatic_pistol

bandleader: The typical semi-automatic pistol is not inherently more lethal than a revolver.

.. generally it is, you're spinning expediently, when you consider one can fire more shots per minute with the sem-auto w larger mag.

bandleader: The 9mm automatic is actually quite anemic and much less lethal than the standard .357 magnum revolver or .44 magnum revolver..45 is acp not much different.

You can shoot several more shots per minute with a 9mm handgun with larger 'magazine' & quicker trigger pull, & with more accuracy than the 357mag, with it's higher recoil.

[the band leader]

35. ...............

Appears about 5% of all americans have a ccw permit, perhaps ~7% of adults nationwide; tho your premise above is faulty since not all ccw permit owners walk around the streets carrying. Some goodly percentage own just to have the permit, or to use when deemed necessary. IOW, ~93% of americans don't want to carry a concealed firearm; if that's skyrocketing, take the bus.
Are you actually trying to suggest that the number of concealed carry permits issued hasn't been increasing significantly over the past several years? Because that's just a ridiculous assertion.
There were 4.6 million permits in 2007. There were 11.7 million permits in 2014. that represents approximately 5% of the US population; What's more, that figure doesn't include the numerous states that don't even require a permit to carry a concealed or unconcealed weapon, states like Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Kansas, Vermont, Wyoming, Montana, New Mexico, Idaho and Oklahoma. So that's a lot of concealed handguns and a fairly explosive increase whatever you want to call it and, as we have already shown, violent crime has steadily decreased in general despite that increase.

The gun ownership rate is of far more use regarding violent crime trends, than concealed pistol permit rates...

You are implying that the number of law abiding individuals who own guns has a statistical relationship with the incidence of violent crime. It doesn't and it is irrelevant to the argument. Furthermore, the people perpetrating the vast majority of the violent gun crimes are not being polled. The incidence of gun ownership among the criminal element is the only number that has any statistical relevance to the incidence of violent homicide as the vast majority of Americans who own and/or carry firearms do not commit violent homicides with guns and are, in fact, more law abiding than the general population. As I have stated repeatedly, more relevant to the increasing incidence of gun crime and crime in general in certain areas throughout the US is the worsening epidemic of substance abuse across the nation. Drug addicts commit criminal acts to pay for their habits, period. Criminal activity, both violent and non-violent, surrounds the illicit drug trade. It is the root of the problem, not guns and yet the powers that be seem to be going out of their way to ignore this problem.

Oh please, not prototypes in early stages of development; sophisticated semi auto pistols did not achieve widespread acceptance until after wwII
The 1911 handgun is still probably the most popular semiautomatic handgun in America and it has been around, relatively unchanged, since 1911-over a hundred years IOW. There is nothing unsophisticated about it. The Thompson submachine gun and the Browning Automatic Rifle were both used by criminals and LEOs in the 20s, 30s, and 40s as well. Semi-automatic handguns have been around and in widespread use for over a hundred years. Fully automatic machine guns and submachine have been around nearly as long. again, it's irrelevant.

generally it is, you're spinning expediently, when you consider one can fire more shots per minute with the sem-auto w larger mag.
For the most part, shot placement is ultimately what determines the lethality of any given handgun projectile. A .22 to the eye is deadlier than a .44 to the thigh. Therefore, it is shooters who are more lethal or less lethal, not handguns. Again, it doesn't matter as there is no evidence that the number of law abiding people with semi-automatic handguns or revolvers on their hips has any relationship with the incidence of violent crime in America. We know that more law abiding people are walking around with handguns of any kind and we know that the violent crime rate has been generally decreasing despite this. The inference is then that the streets are not awash in blood because more law abiding people are actively carrying handguns and any gun control measures directed at said law abiding citizens is not an attempt to reduce violent crime but, rather, a veiled attempt to undermine the second amendment rights of said law abiding citizens. As criminals are in no way affected by gun laws, all you are actually doing is empowering criminals. As such, you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. the entire argument is acedemic anyways as your position has obviously been rejected by the vast majority of Americans as evidenced by your utter failure to ram your gun control agenda down America's throat. You have been repudiated.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

36. You're heading in the right direction if...

...the word-salad rants are growing longer.
You get a +1 from me.

[jimmy the one]

37. whose word salad?

discntnt: You're heading in the right direction if......the word-salad rants are growing longer.
You get a +1 from me.

HAHAHa! I suspect band leader thought you were referring to HIS big word salad!
Can't stop laughing!
So what is it, hypocrite? word salads allowed by rightwing gun nuts, but not by democrat gun control advocates? how does that double standard fit outside the world of hypocrisy?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

40. ding, ding, ding...

...we've got a...

The only complete but respectful response to a word salad is often another word salad.
Never did I say word salads weren't allowed. It is a single standard, salads (word or veggie based) allowed for all.

[jimmy the one]

38. remedial reading needed

band leader:....... The 1911 handgun is still probably the most popular semiautomatic handgun in America and it has been around, relatively unchanged, since 1911-over a hundred years IOW.

That the 1911 handgun is popular with civilians today, or even in the 60's 70's & 80's, helps my argument, altho it's obviously gone over your head. The revolver was more popular during post wwII years amongst the civilian population, which is what we are talking about re violent crime rates, not military since they had ucmj.
To make any further headway in understanding this, YOU need to stop citing military firerams & usage as affecting civilian violent crime rates. The m16 is not the issue today, nobody wants to ban it, the ar15 prototype is the issue.

band leader: Semi-automatic handguns have been around and in widespread use for over a hundred years. Fully automatic machine guns and submachine have been around nearly as long. again, it's irrelevant.

It's irrelevant to you since you want to sweep it under the rug, you can't handle my blaspheming sacred 2nd amendment mythology. Again you cite military usage, but the semi-auto handgun didn't start to gain 'widespread' popularity amongst civilian populace until the 60's & 70's & beyond.

wiki: The M1911 is a semi-auto, magazine-fed, recoil-operated pistol chambered for the .45 ACP cartridge. It served as the standard-issue sidearm for US Armed Forces from 1911 to 1986. It was first used in later stages of the Philippine-American War {~1900}, widely used in WWI, WWII, Korean War, Vietnam War.
.. By the beginning of 1917, a total of 68,533 M1911 pistols had been delivered to US armed forces by Colt and Springfield Armory. .. WWII and the years leading up to it created a great demand. During the war, about 1.9 million units were procured by the US Govt for all forces, production being undertaken by several manufacturers, including Remington Rand (900,000), Colt (400,000), Ithaca (400,000), Union (50,000). . The M1911A1 was a favored small arm of both US and allied military personnel during the war
After World War II, the M1911 continued to be a mainstay of the United States Armed Forces in the Korean War and the Vietnam War.
Current users in the US (circa 2015) .. The M1911A1 is popular among the general public for practical and recreational purposes. The pistol is commonly used for concealed carry ... which helps make my point.

To help you with your comprehension problem, observe the emboldened dates I provide, and try to realize that these could not have been 'popular' in the early 1900's:
Civilian models Colt M1991A1 Compact ORM pistol
A Colt M1991A1 Compact Colt Government Mk. IV Series 70 (1970–1983):
Colt Government Mk. IV Series 80 (1983–present):
Colt 1991 Series (1991–2001 ORM; 2001–present NRM)

band leader: You have been repudiated.

According to who? you? Your posts reek of specious sophistry & casuistry, & you're also delusional to think you repudiated or refuted anything of substance which I said.

Aside, tho I didn't take note at the time, the m1911 45 caliber pistol I suspect is what I qualified as marksman with, in the navy reserves in the 80's, post active duties.

[jimmy the one]

41. no evidence ccw reduces crime

band leader: Are you actually trying to suggest that the number of concealed carry permits issued hasn't been increasing significantly over the past several years? Because that's just a ridiculous assertion.

No, you're spinning. I wrote that the 11.7 ccw permit holders were not all, as you put it: .. walking around on the streets lawfully carrying a firearm concealed or otherwise has never been higher
I then wrote: .. your premise above is faulty since not all ccw permit owners walk around the streets carrying. Some goodly percentage own just to have the permit, or to use when deemed necessary. IOW, ~93% of americans don't want to carry a concealed firearm.

band leader: What's more, that figure doesn't include the numerous states that don't even require a permit to carry a concealed or unconcealed weapon, states like Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Kansas, Vermont, Wyoming, Montana, New Mexico, Idaho and Oklahoma.

Which is what I allowed for when I wrote this in the very post 33 you replied to: The following would be a minimum population, since 'anyone can carry' states not included, tack on a couple million more I suppose:

band leader: You are implying that the number of law abiding individuals who own guns has a statistical relationship with the incidence of violent crime. It doesn't and it is irrelevant to the argument.

I am contending the dramatic declining rate of gun ownership (~35%) between early 90's & 2000, has a strong correlation with the dramatic decline in violent crime rates for the same period. That is a fact, jack.
You are implying the declining rate of violent crime has an inverse correlation with rising shall issue+ concealed carry laws. That is also factual but any causal relationship was disproven by the national research council in 2004: .. does not show evidence that passage of right-to-carry laws reduces crime. My hypothesis has not been disproven.

band leader: Criminal activity, both violent and non-violent, surrounds the illicit drug trade. It is the root of the problem, not guns..

Drugs & the need for money to buy them provided the motive & catalyst, while semi-auto handguns facilitated firearm related gun violence in part to obtain them. Domestic violence, financial problems, mental health problems, & infamy were other motivations.

band leader: We know that more law abiding people are walking around with handguns of any kind and we know that the violent crime rate has been generally decreasing despite this.

More people are in possession of ccw permits, but those people tend generally not to be new gun owners, but existing gun owners; it also remains exceedingly rare within that group that any of them intervene in violent crime. There are too many possible physical risks, legal repercussions, & hazards involved in bringing out a gun in public.
That violent crime rate declined the past 20 years tends true, but also the rate of gun ownership declined. You dismiss declining gun ownership rates, while harping that existing gun owners are now getting more ccw licenses, which they rarely use to deflect violent crime, for fear of getting involved.

band leader: You have been repudiated.

By who? you? you provide specious sophistry & casuistry, & you are delusional as well, to think you refuted anything of substance which I wrote.

[jimmy the one]

42. los angeles 2nd best among these

band leader: .. if you look at the gun control states more critically, you see that violent crime has actually increased in the areas plagued with drugs and gangs. Look at Los Angeles for example where violent crime rose 14.3% in 2014. There's plenty of gun control in Los Angeles. there's also a large and growing culture of drugs and crime.

OK, I bit, but all I see is another gun zealot complaining of the smell in a gun control city, while ignoring the stink in his own back yard:

....all rates, 2012...pop ..... violcr... murder... property
Gun control cities
Los Angeles 3,855,122 .....481 ....7.8 ......2,269 (+~14%vcr,2014)
Baltimore 625,474 .........1,405 ......35 ..... 4,660
New York 8,289,415 .........639 ...... 5.1 ....1,722 (still champ >500k)
Chicago 2,708,382 ..........N/A .....18.3 .... 4,152 (handguns ok 2011)

Pro gun cities:
Tenn Memphis 657,436 ....1,750 ....20.2 ....6,312
Dallas 1,241,549 ..................675 .....12.4 ...4,373
Houston 2,177,273 ...............992 .....10.0 ...4,945
Kansas City 464,073 ...........1,263 ......22 ....5,525
Nashville 620,886 ..............1,216 .....10.0.....4,195
St. Louis 318,667 ..............1,776 ......35 .....6,902 (siccw 2005)
Detroit 707,096 .................2,122 ......54 ....5,792 (siccw 2002, leans gun)
New Orleans 362,874............815 .......53 .....3,772
Oklahoma City 595,607 ........919 ......14.3 .... 5,941.8
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate_(2012)

All the above pro gun cities have higher violent crime rates, murder rates, & property crime rates than los angeles in 2012, most probably in 2013 & 2014 as well. Los Angeles comes in second best after nyc, both with 'lots of gun control'.

band leader: In Chicago, shootings have increased 2 years in a row though actual murder has decreased. There's plenty of gun control in Illinois.

Flash to band leader: Chicago handgun ban was lifted in 2010 by the macdonald decision, handguns allowed in Chicago since 2010/11, and shall issue Illinois since couple years ago.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

43. I turned away for a bit to get some work done and look...

JTO: Did you buy one of these-

[Duckhunter935]

46. Those were so cool!!!

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

47. I might still have one somewhere n/t

[the band leader]

44. and you think it's law abiding gun owners in those pro-gun states committing those crimes?

Give me a break.
You are utterly fixated on the misconception that correlation equals causation unless the correlation disagrees with your world view.

What's more, you have dragged this argument further and further away from simple and obvious realities and have turned the whole dialectic into an exercise in obfuscation because you can not admit that criminals are responsible for gun crime, not gun laws and certainly not the overwhelming majority of law abiding gun owning citizens.

Fact: Violent crime is generally down except for isolated pockets in urban areas that are known to be plagued by illicit drugs.
Fact: the number of law abiding people walking around with concealed carry permits is up.
Fact: Gun control laws are almost exclusively targeted at law abiding citizens and are universally ignored by the criminal element that perpetrates the overwhelming majority of gun crimes in America.
Fact: The actual cost of the American gun violence problem is grossly overblown and pales in comparison to the cost of the American drug problem.

now lets take a closer look at a few of the cities you mentioned as having high crime rates due to lax gun control laws and see if what maybe there isn't a different causation to explain the correlation.

Memphis Tennessee: Memphis, Tennessee serves as the Southern headquarters for gangs in the United States. According to the Shelby County Sheriff’s Department, there are approximately 182 gangs with 8,400 gang members in the county

Kansas City: Gang violence and activity has run rampet (sic) on the Kansas City streets causing concern with citizens and officials alike. With consecutive yearly death tolls reaching over one hundred people, a solution to this issue is in order. It has caused uncertainty and even fear among the community.

Detroit: A silent heroin epidemic has been strangling Detroit communities for years, but has up until now been largely unreported and only talked about behind closed doors....The drug trade has been linked to a soaring homicide rate, which last year reached its highest level in 20 years....

Nashville:The Tennessee Bureau of Investigation’s Drug Investigation Division (DID) was created in 1998, following a report that indicated 80% of the state's crimes were drug related. __________Davidson County Assistant District Attorney Rob McGuire has been prosecuting gang members for years. "We know that gangs in Nashville are responsible for a significant amount of violence," said McGuire. "[link:http://www.wsmv.com/story/22861328/new-law-hopes-to-crack-down-on-gang-activity|Whether it's a murder, a robbery, drug sales, we can often connect that criminal act to a larger criminal enterprise
]

St.Louis: As previously reported by St. Louis Public Radio, the number of deaths in Missouri caused by heroin has doubled in recent years, with 90 percent of those deaths occurring in St. Louis..... Since Duncan's organization began keeping track six and a half years ago, 1900 people in the St. Louis region have died of drug-related causes....Because drug cartels use Chicago as a hub, most heroin comes to St. Louis by way of Chicago, said St. Louis County Police Sergeant Mark Whitson with the Drug Enforcement Agency Collaborative Task Force

It looks to me like these cities have a drug problem at the root of their crime problem, not a gun control problem. But I'll bet that's not at all how you interpret this information.

[jimmy the one]

48. more sophistry from the band

band leader: .. and you think it's law abiding gun owners in those pro-gun states committing those crimes?

Stupid specious leading question - do you still brandish your gun in front of your wife?

band leader: You are utterly fixated on the misconception that correlation equals causation unless the correlation disagrees with your world view.

You're the one posted a graph showing an inverse correlation between shall issue proliferation & falling violent crime rates, misleading readers with a causative effect, until I posted national academy of sciences (iirc) evidence that concealed carry has no demonstrated effect on violent crime rates.

band leader: What's more, you have dragged this argument further and further away from simple and obvious realities and have turned the whole dialectic into an exercise in obfuscation because you can not admit that criminals are responsible for gun crime, not gun laws and certainly not the overwhelming majority of law abiding gun owning citizens.

More sophistry; the simple & obvious reality you disregard is that gun ownership rates fell dramatically ~35% during the same time period early 90's - 2000, when violent crime rates also fell dramatically ~35%.
'Admitting' that criminals are responsible for gun crime, as you put it, is another specious remark from you. Perhaps 25% of those 'criminals' you refer to, were 'law abiding citizens' until moments before they committed their gun crime. Some of those 'criminals' you refer to were current 'law abiding citz' who had their gun rights restored to them after conviction &/or prison, thanks to nra endorsed FOPA86 law, as well as state laws.
You complain of simple facts, while ignoring some yourself and relying on deceptive reasoning to make your points. Of course the 'overwhelming majority' of gun owners do not commit crime, but extremely rarely will these people be wrongly affected by gun control laws, & I suspect most of this group will embrace almost all gun control efforts, despite your mindless whinings.

band leader: Fact: Violent crime is generally down except for isolated pockets in urban areas that are known to be plagued by illicit drugs.

This has what to do with gun control? Urban areas need gun control more than rural.

BL: Fact: the number of law abiding people walking around with concealed carry permits is up.

So is the population, so is the number of people in America who do NOT own guns, far more than the increase in ccw permits.

BL: Fact: Gun control laws are almost exclusively targeted at law abiding citizens and are universally ignored by the criminal element that perpetrates the overwhelming majority of gun crimes in America.

More sophistry; if what you importune had merit gun control would have little support whatsoever. The overwhelming majority of americans do not own, nor do not want 1) assault rifles, 2) ccw permits to carry concealed, 3) more than one gun per month, 4) large capacity magazines, 5) absence of background checks - 85%+ support, 6) guns in schools.
You should realize that those affected negatively by gun control laws are NOT the overwhelming majority of law abiding gun owning citizens, but rather an arrogant selfish predominantly rightwing MINORITY of gun owners who stink up the issue with deceptive argments like you make above.

BL: now lets take a closer look at a few of the cities you mentioned as having high crime rates due to lax gun control laws and see if what maybe there isn't a different causation to explain the correlation.

You blow smoke; I listed those to counter whatever argument you were trying to make about los angeles violent crime rate being so high, with LA having lots of gun control.

[blueridge3210]

49. Here's the thing, James.

"I posted national academy of sciences (iirc) evidence that concealed carry has no demonstrated effect on violent crime rates. "

With this information acknowledged; there is no compelling interest in the government restricting legal gun owners from carrying in public, whether open or concealed.

[jimmy the one]

50. no ccw reciprocity

blue ridge: With this information acknowledged; there is no compelling interest in the government restricting legal gun owners from carrying in public, whether open or concealed.

You simply say 'govt', I presume you mean federal govt, which I sort of agree at this point in time; except that states should be able to allow or prohibit at their discretion, so that a national reciprocity ccw law should be disallowed since it would circumvent several state's may issue laws.
If it were to come to the US supreme court, previous state's constitutions from the 1800's which allowed state's legislatures the ability to prohibit concealed carry, should be cited as evidence to disallow that practice.

[blueridge3210]

51. CCW Reciprocity would come under 10th Amendment juridisction.

As far as the states go, all are now legal public carry either open/concealed or both. There is simply no compelling data that demonstrates that loosening public carry laws has resulted in more unlawful shootings.

The various states are free to set up a compact by where they agree to recognize each other's carry permits subject to pre-agreed upon standards. Participation would be voluntary as it currently is with driver's licenses.

[the band leader]

54. allow me to educate you on why the homicide rates have really been decreasing for years.

?itok=Pp2z-luU

[jimmy the one]

55. triple whammy

That increase in incarceration rate would probably contribute to a declining violent crime rate. But there is another graph you need to look at, having nowt to do with violent crime rates as presented, which demonstrates that the decline in gun ownership rates from early 1990's to 2000 is correlated with a decline in firearm related & overall suicide rates, as well as firearm& overall related homicide rates. :



(reposted from GCRA, author myself): From pew's graph above, suicide by gun dropped 12.4% by total, from 1993 to ~2000, the same time period which pew, gss, & gallup have all shown firearm ownership rates dropping by ~25% or slightly more. There is a definite association, & an apparent correlation, between declining gun death rates & declining gun ownership rates.
The declining 12.4% figure (suicide totals) is somewhat lower than the suicide by gun RATE would be, when you account for population increases (which are not considered in the graph of totals). I think around 18% decline in suicide by gun RATES from ~1993 to 2000, a rough estimate I did using 1990 & 2000 census totals - 1993 ~260m, 2000 281m, 2010 308m. (1990 census 248m).

Similarly, even tho suicide totals have risen markedly from 2000 to 2010 in pew's graph (16,586 - 19,392) as gun ownership rates leveled off, the suicide by RATE only rose ~4% during that 10 yr period, while from 93 - 2000 it dropped ~18%. http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/

This coincides with drops in firearm homicide rates from 1993 to 2000; so a double whammy that the significant 1993 - 2000 drop in gun ownership rates are tied in with significant drops in firearm homicide rates, firearm suicide rates, firearm related violent crime rates. Ok, triple whammy.

[the band leader]

56. You still haven't clarified what you meant by "racial problems" in large cities.

Last edited Mon Jul 13, 2015, 09:04 PM - Edit history (1)

I can only conclude that you have accidentally admitted what I have been saying all along, that guns don't kill people, people kill people, specifically criminal people.

When you lock these criminal people up in a prison, the crime rate goes down. Statistics referencing the number of law abiding households with a firearm have nothing to do with the incidence of violent crime.

You haven't been right about anything yet. It's hard to defend a position that is based on lies and deception when the light of truth is shined upon it.
So, unless you can talk your way out of your "racial problems" statement, you should consider yourself checkmated.

[the band leader]

45. looking more closely at a few more of those cities

Chicago:CHICAGO (FOX 32 News) -- For the DEA in Chicago, heroin is now their number one priority. Agents told FOX 32 that heroin use has tripled in the last three years, and police seized more than 2 million dollars of heroin in the western suburbs over the weekend...Wichern, a DEA Special Agent in charge, said nationally last year that 8300 people died from a heroin overdose. He said that it's mainly coming from Mexico, up interstate 55 and straight to Chicago....


Customers line up for heroin in the 3700 block of West Grenshaw. | Photo in federal complaint
CHICAGO (Sun-Times Media Wire) -
James Triplett had his customers lined up around the corner in broad daylight, the feds say. Not for concert tickets. Not for iPhones. For heroin.

When the authorities busted the drug operation, they said they arrested 32 people and confiscated 12 guns, $50,000 cash, and two cars-one of them a 2014 Maserati GranTurismo

New Orleans : NEW ORLEANS (WVUE) - Jun 19, 2015
A 45-count indictment charges members of a “violent New Orleans street gang” of 12 homicides as well as multiple violations of federal drug and firearm laws.....two gangs converged to increase drug trafficking and ability to commit violent crimes, according to the indictment from the U.S. Department of Justice. All defendants are facing a mandatory life sentence if convicted of committing a murder in furtherance of racketeering activity....The indictment is the product of an ongoing investigation into the drug trafficking and violent crime by this and other New Orleans gangs

Final member of violent Hollygrove (new Orleans) drug gang pleads guilty in federal case
Conley, 25, also pleaded guilty to conspiracy to use firearms during a crime of violence and drug trafficking; assault with a dangerous weapon; using a firearm to murder Paul May on Sept. 14, 2008; committing a carjacking in Jefferson Parish on Jan. 15, 2010; and discharging a firearm during a crime of violence. He faces a sentence of up to life in prison plus an additional 10 years for the firearms offense.

According to a factual basis underpinning the guilty pleas, Conley, Stevenson and Glenn were part of a group of six men who were charged by a federal grand jury in November in a 34-count second superseding indictment. The other members included Theron "Thema" Goldston, Bernell "A-Boogie" Williams and Norman "Turk" Ratcliff. Other members of the group who were previously indicted include Carey "Bean" Jones, Ryan "Ronnie Boo" Carrol, Bernell "Bussy" Williams, and China "Ms. China" Stewart.

According to court records, the so-called Hollygrove group, which operated in the South Carrollton and Hollygrove area, were known to be habitual street-level dealers of drugs including crack cocaine, marijuana and heroin, between 2006 and 2012. Federal prosecutors pegged the group for numerous other violent crimes, including murder. The men were suspected in several fatal and non-fatal shootings, some including assault rifles, many involved with the gang's rival, the Hell City gang, which operated out of Pigeon Town.


Oklahoma City: State of Addiction: Oklahoma ranked No. 1 state in prescription painkiller abuse
Drug overdoses now kill more Oklahomans than motor vehicle accidents — an average of two per day

Oklahoma City Makes Most Gang Infested Cities List
After analyzing data from the FBI and municipal law enforcement agencies, the website came up with the following list of the ‘Most Gang Infested Cities in America.’
1.Chicago, IL
2.Los Angeles, CA
3.Detroit, MI
4.Camden, N.J.
5.Oklahoma City, OK
6.East St. Louis, IL

[jimmy the one]

34. where credit is due

band leader: You are attempting to give credit where credit is not due. Falling crime rates have little to nothing to do with gun control measures directed at law abiding citizens.

That is specious BS as if guncontrol were only directed at responsible gunowners (altho 25% iirc of violent crime done by law abiding citz, maybe more - guncrime linearly related to robb & aggr asslt); ucr FA related violent crime rates are a way to compare efficacy of gun control vs guns, how else? like it or not.
recall what you wrote: bandleader I posted the graph with the intent of showing that A.) violent crime has been decreasing for many years and B.) violent crime is presently at the lowest point in decades despite the rising incidence of concealed carry and C.)..

States with 'may issue' ccw, not shall issue, have seen the greater decline in violent crime rates & thus 'lowest point in decades', over the past 35 years.
Note that the higher the figure (representing rank of the state out of 50), the safer & lower the violent crime rate. Note gun control states have the better record at becoming safer, overall than pro gun states. RI & Hawaii, 2 mill peeps in both, have little effect:

Rank of 1 is most dangerous state, 50 is safest (by violcr rate)
gun control 1981 1992 1993 1999 2000 2001 2008 2010 2013
California ... 5 ...... 3 .... 2 .... 10 .... 9 .... 8 ... 14 ... 17 .... 18
Connecticut ..23 ... 31 .. 31 .. 32 .. (~32) 33 .. 32 ..... 31 .... 36
New York ... 1 ..... 2 ... 3 .... 11 .... 12 ...16 .... 24 .. 20 .... 19
Rhode Island 25 ......... fluctuating downward ................2013: 39
New Jersey ...11 ............................................................... ..29
Massachu .....12 .................................................................. 16
Marlyland ......4 ...........(little change thru-out) .........................8
Illiinois......... 6 .................................................................... 20
Hawaii........ 40 ................................................................... 38

pro gun ... 1981 - 92 - 93 -- 99 - 00 - 01 - 08 - 10 - 13 (selected states)
Alaska .... 13 .... 11 .. 11 .. 9 .. 10 ..10 .. 8 ...2 .... 1
Florida ........2 .... 1 ...... 1 ....1 ...1 ... 3 .. 5 .. 9 .... 9
Texas .........17 . 10 ... 14 ...14 ..13 ..12.. 13 .. 15.. 17
Tennessee ..29 .. 13 ... 13 .... 7 .. 5 ... 6 .. 3 .... 4 ... 4
Oklahoma 28 ...................................................... 2013: 12
N Dakota ...50 ...............................................................: 35
S Dakota ...49 ................................................................ 26
Missouri ....16 ............... 2002: 15 (siccw) ........................ 13
Arkansas ...34 .................................................................10
Virginia .....33 ......... developed modest GC this century........48
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/Rate%20and%20Rank%20of%20Violent%20Crime%20for%2050%20US%20States.html

4 largest states, tex & flor pro gun; calif & NY gun control:
Texas 1964: 190 .... 1981: 532 .... 1992: 806 .... 2000: 545 ....2013: 400
Florida 1964: 290 .... 1981: 965 ... 1992: 1207 ... 2000: 812 .... 2013: 460
New Y (1965) 325 ... 1981: 1070 ... 1992: 1122 .. 2000: 554 .. 2013: 390
Califor 1964: 265 .... 1981: 863 ..... 1992: 1120 .... 2000: 621 ... 2013: 396

Hawaii: 1992: 258 .... 2000: 244 .......... 2013: 245 -- 5% decline
New Jersey: 1992: 626 .... 2000: 384 ..... 2013: 286 -- 54%
Massachu: 1992: 779 ... 2000: 476 ....... 2013: 404 --- 48%
Maryland: 1992: 1000 .... 2000: 787 ...... 2013: 468 -- 53%
Connect: 1992: 495 ..... 2000: 324 ....... 2013: 255 -- 48%
RIsland: 1992: 395 ..... 2000: 298 ........ 2013: 245 -- 38%
Illinois: 1992: 977 ...... 2000: 657 ........ 2013: 373 -- 62%
New Yk: 1992: 1122 .... 2000: 554 ..... 2013: 390 -- 65%
Californ: 1992: 1120 ...... 2000: 621 ..... 2013: 396 -- 65%
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/

USA nat avg viol cr rate: 1992: 757 - 2013: 368 -- 51% decline. Your graph shows declining violent crime rates from 1993 - 2011, but that national percentage decline to 2013 is ~51%, while the 9 gun control states show higher rates of decline overall, appears close to 60% when adj'd for population. Ergo, non gun control states have lesser violent crime rate decline than gun control states, appears about 42% decline 1992-2013. Urban areas & cities in new York & California gave initial rise to violent crime, as well as florida.
You in gunworld are the ones taking credit where it's not fully due, by incorporating gun control states into your bravado.

[ileus]

5. I notice folks aren't being scared this time.

Plenty of ammo still on the shelves yesterday at Dicks, Dunhams, and walturd.

All the other scares the past several years have resulted in empty shelves a few days after "I'm going to do something" speeches.

[Shamash]

6. Let's wait and see

Give it a month or so and we can check to see if there is a spike in NICS use indicating lots of new gun purchases.

[ileus]

7. Well that's another story...

I was going off the ammo still on the shelf.


As for me I just picked up another 1000 primers...


To match another 1k brass I bought a few weeks ago, now that my son (10yo) is on summer break I'll get him to deprime, expand, and prime them for me.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

9. I bet you're planning...

...a bunch of "home made ammo". Really? You just can't make this stuff up.

[ileus]

10. You don't believe people reload???

You actually think it's impossible to load your own ammo?


I can produce 100 rounds of 9mm for less than 8 bucks.

I cast and powder coat my own bullets.
Primers are 28-39 bucks a thousand.
Powder is 18 bucks a pound.

1. lead furnace
2. Lead mold
3. Toaster oven
4. Press
5. Calibers
6. Dies


I can sit down in the evenings and churn out 500 rounds in a few hours. All with the comfort of knowing I'm insulated from the ammo scares you non reloading folks have to suffer through.

No more having to buy guns to match whatever ammo I happen to find on the shelf. No more not getting to shoot because ammo is all dried up.

Plus you get the confidence that each step of assembly was properly QC'd and you're shooting consistent loads that aren't a danger to your firearm or groups.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

11. If you want a job done right... n/t

[ileus]

13. Exactly....that's why I trust my QC the most.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

20. I helped reload about 2500 rounds in .30-06 but...

...that was a long time ago. We loaded both 150 gr spitzer and 220 gr. (I can't remember the style of the 220s) Both copper jacket for use in M-1 Garand. Another time I reloaded a small quantity of .30-40 Krag. All I remember about the Krag is the blunt end of the round.

We had loaded a few rounds of .30-06 with slight differences in powder amounts for both weights to be bench fired. My instructor wanted to illustrate some of the ballistic differences over weight and powder amount. Very interesting.

From my perspective George Patton was spot on; the Garand is great rifle.

[ileus]

23. Homemade ammo??? No Way! Umpossible!!!

Individual citizens are too dumb to know how to manufacture ammunition.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

24. I was a lot smarter then...

...I was in high school.
Oh, the humanity...

[tularetom]

52. I can't use it up as fast as I reload it

I don't do much hunting anymore but I do have a lot of reloaded .223, 7.62x54R, .308, .30-30, and 7.92(Mauser) rounds, as well as the .45LC, .38 Special and .357 handgun rounds I've loaded for cowboy action shooting.

I even bought a thing called a Lee Load-All and some brass Magtech 12 gauge cases and loaded about 500 rounds within #7 shot.

And a lot of it is still sitting in my basement gathering dust. except for the .223 which I use on coyotes and gophers.

It's hard to find reloadable cases for the Mosin and Mauser ammo because all of the surplus stuff they sell has steel cases and Berdan primers. It's pretty cheap but more corrosive than black powder.

Anyway, I'm just waiting for somebody to come up with reloadable rimfire ammunition.

[oneshooter]

53. You meam like this?

http://22lrreloader.com/design-details/

[ileus]

12. I highly recommend RCBS and Dillon

http://ads.midwayusa.com/find?newcategorydimensionid=4294846302&cm_mmc=ps_google-_-google-_-RL_Metallic%20Reloading%20Presses_Alpha_G-_-rcbs&gclid=CjwKEAjwwZmsBRDOh7C6rKO8zkcSJABCusnbQyFTopQjFkWDnGgPpjqhwfwbgJPXlhtJFv_hHCn-ohoCz1rw_wcB


http://ads.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=dillon

[Eleanors38]

22. My speculation is that big ammo purchases have become political demonstration...

so, it is possible there will be something of a run.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

17. And yet the US has only 12 times as many guns.

If guns = violence shouldn't the US have only 12 times as many guns? Or 33 times as many guns?

[DonP]

18. Wait, don't Israeli teachers carry in the classroom?

Is that the model that SecMo is suggesting the US follow?

Sound pretty irresponsible to me. Maybe he's just a Wayne LaPierre plant here on DU?

That's the kind of thing that will get you banned in Bansalot.

[ileus]

25. So now we're supposed to look to Israel as a model.......Humm....

Normally we're supposed to hate Israel policy.