Arms trafficking

[JonLP24]

I would like to discuss a few things and I'm here to learn as well.

Straw purchasing. Thanks to a recent Supreme Court ruling & tougher sentences. I'm not sure how much more we can do. Limit per transactions seems to be a good idea.

Corrupt licensed dealers. Gun dealers selling guns off the books. I'm very unfamiliar in this year but I've seen strict inventory requirements & video tape every transaction as proposed policy.

Also the federal law that specifically doesn't require background checks for private dealers. Do you support a change on that.

Also I read tracing is very difficult at the federal level, I hear it would be very helpful if that process was made easier to identify the major traffickers.

Someone that purchases guns from an international arms dealer & sells them out of the trunk of his car. I'm not sure what to do here, I'm sure that is already illegal.

What other ways would you address these? What other problems do you see & what could be done to stem the flow of guns into criminals here in the US. (Outside the country, US has no rules when it comes to gun trafficking in the United States--they're the dealer)

[Nuclear Unicorn]

1. Registration is the key to confiscation. nt

[gejohnston]

2. the problem doesn't seem to be high scale trafficking

the main source is theft. I don't know of any evidence supporting the large scale trafficking rings.

Straw purchasing. Thanks to a recent Supreme Court ruling & tougher sentences. I'm not sure how much more we can do. Limit per transactions seems to be a good idea.

Under the Gun Control Act, that can get up to 10 years in Club Fed. The average sentence is a couple months and probation. The average sentence for unregistered machine gun is 18 months. The problem is the sentencing guidelines, local cops turning them over to the feds, and federal prosecutors doing their jobs. Under the Gun Control Act, the dealer must report someone buying two or more handguns at the same time to the ATF.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act_of_1968

Corrupt licensed dealers. Gun dealers selling guns off the books. I'm very unfamiliar in this year but I've seen strict inventory requirements & video tape every transaction as proposed policy

strict inventory control has been federal law since 1968, as part of the Gun Control Act. Part of that is the buyer filling out a ATF form 4473 which the buyer gives among other things: SSN, DL#, place of birth.
The problem is theft, which is why most countries have safe storage laws. A few years ago LAPD thought it was a bright idea to use an unoccupied building with no alarm system for their SWAT armory. They lost an undisclosed number of pistols and between 15-21 (depending on the article you read). One of the machine guns was used in a Montreal bank job. Heckler and Koch MP-5 sub-machine guns.
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/oct/28/local/la-mew-lapd-swat-guns-black-market-mobile

Also the federal law that specifically doesn't require background checks for private dealers. Do you support a change on that.

There are no private dealers. Under the Gun Control Act, a dealer is someone who does it as a business. An individual seller I think you mean. It is more accurate to say a private individual is prohibited under the Brady Bill from having access to NICS. A federal law covering intra state private purchases would violate the Commerce Clause. All interstate sales are covered under the Gun Control Act and require a background check.

Also I read tracing is very difficult at the federal level, I hear it would be very helpful if that process was made easier to identify the major traffickers

Once something goes into the black market, it can't be traced. Even the cartel's machine guns can be traced to country of origin and what army it was stolen from. There is evidence that they are making their own knock off M-16s. How it works is ATF contacts the manufacturers or importer and asks them who they sold it to. They follow that to the first retailer and possibly individuals after that. They also run it through NCIC to see if it was reported stolen.

Someone that purchases guns from an international arms dealer & sells them out of the trunk of his car. I'm not sure what to do here, I'm sure that is already illegal.

Yes, that is already illegal just like selling cocaine or pot out of the trunk of your car.

What other ways would you address these? What other problems do you see & what could be done to stem the flow of guns into criminals here in the US. (Outside the country, US has no rules when it comes to gun trafficking in the United States--they're the dealer)

Not all of the gun companies are in the US. In fact, most of them are not. In fact, half of the guns you see in a gun store are European. Half of mine are.
Most US police departments use guns made in Europe (Glock and SIG to be specific). Australian biker gangs make their own sub machine guns.

[JonLP24]

3. I hear it is difficult to determine where guns come from where

due to limits to ATF tracing.

I have seen research indicating straw purchasing to be main factor and if people are going further & further to go to states with the softer regs, better tracing would help to identify the main ones.

If theft is the main thing and don't doubt it isn't a significant contributor, then we need to also focus on better gun storage.

[gejohnston]

4. I doubt your research comes from a reputable source

or is very high quality I'm guessing it is the Brady Campaign, VPC, or MAIG. What they are doing is using the ATF tracing data and picking one possibility (out of many) without the evidence to back it up.

if people are going further & further to go to states with the softer regs,

The average "time to crime" is 12 years. The Gun Control Act is federal law. All gun dealers are licences by the federal government. If these people are driving from New Jersey to Vermont, they are committing a federal crime. It is a federal crime for me to buy a gun in Arizona, Texas, Florida, Idaho or any other state without said dealers license or having the gun shipped to licensed dealer in Wyoming for background check etc. (long guns are sometimes a different issue) It is also a federal crime to sell a gun directly to someone who is not a resident of the same state.
What you described is already illegal under federal law and has been since LBJ was president.

[JonLP24]

5. I haven't suggested much more laws than the ones described OP

No to your guess. I generally try to find independent sources because I like to make judgments without politics clouding the facts

Sources generally come from here http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

Valley Gun, Baltimore, Maryland

ATF conducted a compliance inspection of Valley Gun in 2003 and discovered that 422 guns were missing—more than a quarter of the store’s entire inventory. Additionally, this store was connected with more than 483 guns found at crime scenes, including 41 assaults and 11 homicides. For these and other violations, ATF eventually revoked the owner’s federal firearms license, although he was permitted to continue selling the guns in the store’s inventory as a private seller.
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/guns-crime/report/2013/06/18/66693/lost-and-stolen-guns-from-gun-dealers/

I could list more but when you say all gun dealers are licensed. What about unlicensed vendors? There are a hell of a lot more sources than those 3.

“Undocumented private party gun sale transactions account for as many as 40 percent of all gun sales,” said Wintemute. “They are quick and convenient, and their anonymity attracts those who put privacy at a premium. These same attributes make private-party gun sales a principal option for a felon or other prohibited person.”
http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/welcome/features/20090923_gun_study/index.html

A source that includes many of the things that I said that I also came across through other sources. (First time finding this link so this one isn't the one to first tell me that information)
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2014/01/map_where_do_nj_criminals_get_their_guns_mostly_not_here.html

[gejohnston]

9. finding untainted facts are harder than it seems.

and journalism school doesn't always turn out the brightest and best. An unnamed ATF agent isn't anything.
The Center for American Progress is political. The fact that the two of us generally share its views doesn't matter.
The problem with statistics in general.

I could list more but when you say all gun dealers are licensed. What about unlicensed vendors? There are a hell of a lot more sources than those 3.

What do you mean vendor? You mean the guy that sells one firearm through classified ads or like this guy? This is how the Gun Control Act defines dealer. Anyone fitting that definition without an FFL is committing a federal felony.

Wintemute is hardly a independent source. While he is good MD, he is a gun control activist and his studies show his bias, which is why you never see him published in peer reviewed Criminology journals. About that 40 percent:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-stale-claim-that-40-percent-of-gun-sales-lack-background-checks/2013/01/20/e42ec050-629a-11e2-b05a-605528f6b712_blog.html

the last link refers to the jumping to conclusions I discussed earlier. While there are a few sleazy dealers (I never said there wasn't) but there are also over 50K guns reported stolen every year.
https://www.atf.gov/content/About/statistics/firearms-trace-data-2013

The problem with the straw purchase trafficking theory: the gun you buy on the Newark street corner is WAY below retail. Why would someone in PA buy a $700 gun to drive risk federal and NJ prison by taking it to New Jersey and sell it for $150? Makes no logical sense.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/hot-guns-fueling-crime-us-study/story?id=18318610

I highly recommend this book
http://www.amazon.com/Armed-Considered-Dangerous-Peter-Rossi/dp/0202362426/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1319354875&sr=1-1

All economies are demand driven, this is no different. Look at a map of where most of our murders occur. Within those areas, what specific neighborhoods? gangs, politicians who have mutually beneficial relationships with those gangs, food desert, no jobs, shitty infrastructure, zoning ordinances that prevent those problems being fixed, political corruption, cops are viewed as an occupying army instead of being part of the community, cops who bring that view on themselves.
You don't get more awash in guns than Wyoming (the "gunshine state" is closer to France than Vermont.) 5 of our 14 murders were with a gun. My town's last murder was 30 years ago when some PCP crazed nut stabbed a woman he thought was a deer from outer space.
The solutions lie in fixing the cause, not tinker with the means.

[JonLP24]

10. 500,000 stolen guns is a stat I often come across

The same sources that mention that also mention a lot of the other stuff. The article I used is one of many examples suggesting guns used in crimes are through straw purchasers from softer gun restricted markets -- Chicago says most come from suburban gun shops & Indiana -- http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/The-312/July-2012/Where-Do-Chicagos-Guns-Come-From/ Far from the only source on that.

I agree with you more than you may realize.

All economies are demand driven, this is no different. Look at a map of where most of our murders occur. Within those areas, what specific neighborhoods? gangs, politicians who have mutually beneficial relationships with those gangs, food desert, no jobs, shitty infrastructure, zoning ordinances that prevent those problems being fixed, political corruption, cops are viewed as an occupying army instead of being part of the community, cops who bring that view on themselves.

That right there is an excellent point. Better policing, better this, better that won't solve the problems of no jobs out there & poverty, failing school system, etc. The Wire does a good job of showing no matter how hard you try, things stay the same -- status quo.

It is also funny to me in a lot of those areas a lot of politicians start asking of "assault weapons bans" but the vast majority of guns used in those crimes are handguns.

"The solutions lie in fixing the cause, not tinker with the means." I couldn't agree more

One final question. I wanted to avoid using the political term because it doesn't accurately describe the "loophole" but is there a gun show loophole or not? Can you buy guns at "gun shows" without going through the same federal requirements as Chuck's Gun Shop?

All I'm interested in is focusing on the real problems of gun control. I live in a concealed carry state and having a shirt over a gun doesn't make it any more dangerous. Hunting & self defense is fine but I play the odds on the latter & I wouldn't want the responsibility that comes with owning a gun -- constantly aware where it is at all times, the it is within arms lengths, safe & secure, etc.

[gejohnston]

12. The gun show loophole

It depends on who the seller is at the gun show (it also depends on the state and gun show promoter). If Chuck's gun shop has a booth at the gun show, yes you still do the background check. If for example, an individual wants to trade or sell from private collection, not under federal law. Some states have mechanisms for that be it license like IL, or a purchase permit (like MI and NC have had since the 1920s). Some don't. Since federal law prohibits non dealers from using NICS, some gun show promoters in states that don't have such mechanisms have been known to:
have a designated dealer do all NICS checks, for private individuals
have a cop at the door do a BGC (using the same data bases) before allowing person to enter or give them wrist band.
Of course not all of them do.

As for Chicago blaming suburbs, I don't picture gangbangers getting IL firearms owners identification cards to go to the gun store.

Since where I live, I am either in Mayberry or the wilderness, I don't carry concealed. I do carry while backpacking and camping.

Even though my kids are grown and gone, I still believe in safes instead of the closet or the nice wood and glass cabinet (unless you have some muskets meth heads can't figure out how to use).

[JonLP24]

13. Chicago is blaming the straw purchasers

Who may or may not be gang bangers but they can pass a background check.

From 2008 to March 2012, the police successfully traced the ownership of 1,375 guns recovered in crimes in Chicago within a year of their purchase.

Of those guns, 268 were bought at Chuck’s — nearly one in five.

That statistic comes from a groundbreaking study by University of Chicago Crime Lab researchers, done at the request of the Chicago Police Department, which is grappling with an extra-violent 2012 that has seen a 28 percent spike in the city’s homicide total compared to this time last year.

In their study, U. of C. researchers combed through gun-trace data to determine the weapons most likely bought by straw purchasers.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/14715658-418/chicago-gangs-dont-have-to-go-far-to-buy-guns.html#.VGakq8ldI4c

Oh, never mind. From the same link

Police acknowledge stolen guns form part of the supply line to crooks.

In an interview with the Chicago Sun-Times, a South Side gang member admitted he and his crew almost exclusively arm themselves with stolen guns because they can’t afford to buy new ones. Some of those guns, he said, are stolen from freight trains sitting in South Side rail yards. Others are swiped from gun stores.

----------------------------------------

Hmm, where would you suggest for unbiased info on the supply line. Pretty much every source mentions 500,000 guns stolen but also that straw purchasers rival that number with the third being corrupt licensed dealers or "missing from the inventory". If it is the case most of them are stolen, how do the gun stores keep getting robbed?

[gejohnston]

14. With an average of time to crime

being 12 plus years, and Chucks being that low, I think the ATF needs to look at the 4473s to those guns. Don't you? Something doesn't sound right.
Outside of the Wright Rossi study (the Amazon link) I don't know of anyone who has done one.

Stolen includes individuals being burglarized (which is why most countries have safe storage laws), police departments (like LAPD mentioned earlier. That is how Dillinger got his Thompsons and at least one pistol), Then there is NYPD. military, oh and the ATF itself.

Also, guns are durable goods. Many confiscated from gang members were made by companies like Jennings, who have been out of business for 30 years. Thompson SMGs showed up in Kosavo that were used in Ireland in the 1920s. Many of the cartel guns are M-16s and AKs from Reagan's proxy wars in Central America. Syrian rebels and Taliban used WW2 era bolt actions like the Enfield and Mossin Nagant. Before you laugh, they have more range and use a more powerful round than any assault rifle. Some gangs use community guns. Community guns were also common among street gangs in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
this might be of interest
https://www.atf.gov/content/press/releases/06-17-2013-atf-releases-lost-and-stolen-firearms-report

[JonLP24]

15. I'm familiar with assault rifles

Legislation is seems more designed at prohibited scary looking guns than by things like range & power. Using a M-16 while hunting deer would be more inhumane than common hunting rifles, better for small game. Though I suppose you could buy larger rounds or modify it in some way to equal it but I don't consider them much of a problem.

Most gun crimes are committed by hand guns which everyone here probably already knows.

Community guns was something I came across during my internet travels -- http://www.forbes.com/sites/frankminiter/2014/08/12/inside-the-black-market-for-guns/

I generally try to avoid Forbes as they have a clear right wing slant. Especially when it comes to oil.

[gejohnston]

16. sort of

There are AR type rifles in appropriate calibers (or one can use different upper receiver to change calibers, and even a crossbow). In Wyoming, the .223 is illegal for hunting game animals. an AR with, say, a .308, caliber and five round magazine would be legal for hunting. Detachable magazines are limited to five rounds regardless of action type for hunting game animals. Personally, I haven't evolved passed the lever action, or the falling block.
I don't know about your state, but in Wyoming an M-16 (the real one) is legal to own (as long as you are in compliance with the National Firearms Act) but may not possess it in the wild. Machine guns are not allowed in any game field or forest.

[JonLP24]

17. By real you mean like a M16A2?

Safe, semi, burst?

Even though I carried for a whole year in the military & went to ranges, I don't think I ever fired on burst. Maybe once in basic training. Just kept it on semi for the ranges.

Is burst fully automatic? If it is, is automatic completely illegal? I suppose I can look this up but just verifying by real you mean like a M16A2? I forgot about the AR-15, kinda looks like a M-4 to me (would have much preferred carrying that one - lighter)

[gejohnston]

18. the only thing I fired full auto was the M-60

By real I mean select fire M-16, M-16A1, or A-2. The A1 added the forward assist and the A2 is the burst fire.
As far as the National Firearms Act is concerned, burst is a machine gun (more than one round per pull of the trigger). Both are regulated the same, but the Hughes Amendment closed the machine gun registry, which prevents any A2s from being registered to private individuals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act
The M-4 is simply a carbine version. Most semi auto only ARs I see are the full sized ones.

[JonLP24]

19. So which M16 would be OK?

The Vietnam M-16 or M-16? (didn't know there was one before the A1)

I live in Arizona which seems to have the lightest restrictions possible. They have the same rules as Wyoming concerning automatics.

Not that it matters, forgetting my M-16 in a latrine at TQ for 15 seconds caused me to never want to have the responsibility of owning a gun. When I felt naked by not feeling that weight, I turned around and ran back even though I wasn't far at all from it.

Also, first clearing barrel after dead tired from traveling all night, I almost forgot to drop the magazine before clearing. No thanks, odds outweigh me making a mistake than a scenario where I'd need it.

Thanks for all the information & civil discourse, I really appreciate it. I thought by posting here I'd be opening myself up to some angry, irrational debate.

[gejohnston]

20. OK for what?

Neither are on my shopping list. An M-6 Scout, on the other hand, is. I grew up around guns and come from a family of cops and hunters. Carrying one on a regular basis should not be taken lightly nor should it be a political statement (yes Open Carry Texas, I'm talking to you).
You are very welcome.

[ManiacJoe]

21. All M-16 variants are considered machine guns...

... in the civilian realm due to all of them being capable of firing more than one shot per trigger pull (burst or full-auto).

They are all legal to own at the federal level as long as they were registered prior to 1986. At the state level, machine gun ownership is governed by the individual state as are suppressors, short-barreled rifles, and short-barreled shotguns.

AR-15 style rifles fire only one shot per trigger pull, so they are just standard rifles in the laws.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

6. Welcome

Straw purchasing: The recent CA law is a bit of a step backward. http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172155477

Corrupt licensed dealers: I'm not sure what should change there but clearly monitoring all those businesses is beyond the scope of the ATF.

UBCs: I'm indifferent because I don't believe they will really change violent crime stats.

Tracing: What do you mean by tracing?

International Arm Dealers: Not really a domestic issue as I understand it. Maybe major cartels get involved but car trunks on corners is probably not happening.

(Outside the country, US has no rules when it comes to gun trafficking in the United States--they're the dealer)

Not sure I know what you mean.

[JonLP24]

7. Oops

I meant outside the US. I mean the US pouring lots of lethal weapons & equipment into the Middle East.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

8. So who is the real...

...Lord of War?

An onscreen postscript states that private dealers conduct less business than the five largest arms exporters – the United States, United Kingdom, Russia, France, and China – who are the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_War

[JonLP24]

11. Hillary Clinton on gun control

Hillary Clinton, in an interview with Jeffrey Goldberg; John McCain, pretty much constantly—have argued that the entire ISIS disaster could have been avoided if we’d only done more to arm the rebels, at least those in groups like the Free Syrian Army. Clinton called the President’s decision not to do so on a large scale “a failure” that left “a vacuum” for the jihadists. Obama, in an interview with Tom Friedman, said that has “always been a fantasy,” because not only were there never enough moderates but also because many of them were “doctors, farmers, pharmacists, and so forth”—not the sorts of people to whom you can just hand heavy weaponry and hope for the best. Indeed, they were the sorts of people whose weapons were looted by groups like ISIS.

How could simply siphoning more weapons into the country have helped? Hillary Clinton has an answer to that, and it’s a fairly telling one. The arming of Syrian factions by other countries, she acknowledged, was “indiscriminate”; the best way to control that, she says, would be to have “skin in the game”—to be seen as a weapons supplier, too. In her memoir, “Hard Choices,” Clinton wrote more about what she again called “into the game”:

It wasn’t a secret that various Arab states and individuals were sending arms into Syria. But the flow of weapons was poorly coordinated, with different countries sponsoring different and sometimes competing armed groups. And a troubling amount of that material was finding its way to extremists. Because the United States was not part of this effort, we had less leverage to corral and coördinate the arms traffic.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/amy-davidson/triangle-game-isis-assad-america

I meant more of my last 2 points as a joke but in all seriousness. I understand why tragedies & the need to prevent further in the US and since exporting guns with tragic results is isn't as bad, I could say I didn't have friends at Columbine or at the Denver movie. If any of us lived in the shoes of a civilian in Southwest Asia under constant war, accelerated by a heavy supply of US weapons -- how would you feel about US gun control? My point is sensible policy should be in place whether here or there, not senseless policy.