Florida popcorn shooting: Are concealed guns about self-defense or power?

[SecularMotion]

How is it that Curtis Reeves, a well-regarded former Tampa, Fla., police captain, allowed a mundane argument over cellphone texting in a movie theater to end in bloodshed and tragedy?

That has become a riveting question in the wake of the death Monday of Chad Oulson, a 43-year-old husband, father, and former Naval petty officer who threw a bag of popcorn at Mr. Reeves as the argument escalated. Reeves, who carried a sidearm throughout a long police career, “should have known better” than to open fire, says former Florida prosecutor Bob Dekle.

Florida prosecutors have charged Reeves with second-degree murder, citing at least one incident in the past where he confronted a theater texter. He was refused bond in a preliminary hearing on Tuesday where he wore a bulletproof vest for, police said, his own protection.

Both texting and gun carry are against the theater rules at the Wesley Chapel, Fla., multiplex where the killing took place.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2014/0115/Florida-popcorn-shooting-Are-concealed-guns-about-self-defense-or-power-video

[pscot]

1. Another lunatic pistolero

If you're that frightened of your fellow citizens, stay home. Hide in a fucking closet.

[Starboard Tack]

2. Obviously Standing his Ground against that deadly popcorn.

It'll be interesting to see how the lawyers and the pro carry folk try to spin this one.

[Lizzie Poppet]

5. This "pro-carry" person has no desire to spin this.

From what's been reported thus far, it seems to me that Reeves committed murder and should be punished accordingly. Yeah, it's a bit of a "when douchebags collide" scenario...but there's no way a reasonable person could construe being pelted with popcorn as a serious threat of bodily harm. At most, Reeves would have been justified in being prepared to defend himself (as in any escalating argument), but to have drawn and fired at that state of the conflict is a gross overreaction.

Also, it's been pointed out that the theater has a "no weapons" policy. Such policies may not have force of law (I don't know if that's the case in Florida), but a person of character honors those restrictions as a matter of respect to the property owner.

[Starboard Tack]

11. If all had your attitude and integrity, we would have far fewer shootings.

Unfortunately, I don't think you are representative of the majority of gun carriers. I base that statement on both what I read from the pro carry people in this group and on news reports of jerks like this ex-cop.
I have seen posts here by those who believe it is OK to kill thieves who pose no physical threat.

[bossy22]

23. Even though the overwhelming majority of gun carriers never have get in any trouble?

with 10 million gun people licensed to carry weapons in this country you are bound to have a few bad apples- its just statics. You are going to get idiots like Mr. Reeves.

[Starboard Tack]

32. Very true. You make a good point.

But those statistics also beg the question, "What percentage of idiots is OK?"
As the numbers increase, then the idiot factor will increase proportionately. Therein lies the problem.

Let's go with your number of 10 million CCW holders. How many of those actually carry on a regular basis? Maybe 1 million.

If 99.9% don't do a Reeves, that would leave 0.1%. That equals 1,000 unjustified killings a year by CCW holders. Is that number acceptable and if not, how do we reduce it?
I'm all for smart solutions to problems, with a minimal cost, especially when the price is paid in human lives.

[gejohnston]

34. from 2008-2011

the number is 27 over a three year period in Florida. Now compare that with the number of not only the number of justified killings, but those where the would be bad guy survived (more common than resulting in death) and bad guys being deterred without a shot fired.
There are probably more unjustified shootings by police, assuming they were held to the same standard as a citizen, which they are not. If I shot up a pick up truck that was no threat, I would be in jail and rightfully so. The LAPD members who thought mistook a woman and her daughter for Dorner still have their badges and guns.

[Starboard Tack]

36. 27 what? Unjustified homicides by CCW holders?

Do you find that acceptable?
Then let's add the so-called justifiable homicides committed by people like Zimmerman. How many of those were there?
Then let's add the "justifiable" killings by cops. How many of those were there?

You know I don't support routine carry by cops or anyone. I understand the rationale behind it and I think it should be a personal choice, especially in a gun infested society. Everyone should have an equal opportunity to defend themselves, including ex-cons, if they have served their sentence. Doesn't mean I support that choice, unless it seems warranted.
It's like abortion to me. I support a woman's right to choose, but not necessarily the choice she makes. All depends on circumstances.

[gejohnston]

39. that is the correct number for Florida

Do you find that acceptable?

How many were in public where the permit would be relevant? Gun control advocates talk about "gun suicides" instead of suicides and gun murder instead of murders, is it reasonable for me to ask how many suicides and murders by other means are acceptable?

Then let's add the so-called justifiable homicides committed by people like Zimmerman. How many of those were there?

Go back to the trial, Zimmerman was a victim of a violent assault, those are the facts of the case agreed and agreed by legal scholars left and right including the Martin family ambulance chasers. It was justifiable by any objective standards. Just because some ideologue or brain dead pundit views anyone who accepts that fact as a bad person doesn't change that. The fact that one being under 18 has no relevance in any system.

Then let's add the "justifiable" killings by cops. How many of those were there?

define your terms. Justifiable by any objective standard, or how it really works?

You know I don't support routine carry by cops or anyone. I understand the rationale behind it and I think it should be a personal choice, especially in a gun infested society.

It is also a knife infested society.

Everyone should have an equal opportunity to defend themselves, including ex-cons, if they have served their sentence. Doesn't mean I support that choice, unless it seems warranted.

Yet you routinely ignore the facts of the case, when available, and attack the defending victim.

It's like abortion to me. I support a woman's right to choose, but not necessarily the choice she makes. All depends on circumstances.

Not the same thing. The abortion debate is something of a paradox, which is why I stay away from it.

[bossy22]

43. that is the key question

the thing is that the percentage of CCW holders that law abiding is far greater than even 99.9%. I'd say that if there were 1,000 homicides per year caused by CCWers it would warrant a re-think of the program

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

46. re: "That equals 1,000 unjustified killings a year by CCW holders."

Technically I wouldn't project that 0.1% to be an annual number but rather a lifetime number.

After all, with 10,000,000 CC holders times 0.001 equals 10,000 killings, nearly all of the non-suicide firearm murders. I don't believe that 90% of those firearm murders are by CC holders. Am I missing something in the details?

My math my be off but I don't think so and I figure that 0.1% is spread over about 35 years. Call it about 0.0029% per year doing a Reeves.

[spin]

24. You may not feel that poster Lizzie Poppet is Representative of the majority of gun carriers but ...

I do.

I have a Florida concealed weapons permit and I carry on a regular basis. I know a good number of other people who also legally carry.

We realize that we are not cops nor are we vigilantes. We are simply honest people who have passed a background check and firearm safety training in order to have a fair chance to be able to defend ourselves in the unlikely possibility that we are attacked by a individual who has every intent to put us in a hospital for a lengthy stay or six feet under. Of course the attacker has to be able to seriously injure us which would mean that he has to be armed with a lethal weapon or so much larger and stronger than we are that we would have little chance of stopping him short of using lethal force.

A bag of popcorn is not a lethal weapon. Therefore, at this time, I feel that the ex-cop made a serious mistake and should end up in prison.

Still to be fair, I am basing my opinion on early media reports. Over the years I have learned to be somewhat hesitant to do so as often more information about a case emerges later, perhaps during the legal proceedings.

We do know Chad Oulson threw a bag of popcorn at the ex-police officer, Curtis Reeves. We may not know exactly what happen in the spit second afterward. It's a common street fighter tactic to throw something in their opponent's face to distract them and then to attack.

We do know that Chad Oulson was 43 years old and Reeves was 71. We don't know the size or health difference between the two men. The article also points the following out:

Some have suggested that Reeves, 71, may have felt legitimately threatened and bullied by the younger Mr. Oulson, and that the thrown popcorn could qualify as an assault on an elderly person, a felony worthy of self-defense in Florida. That tack toward a possible “stand your ground” defense has already been dubbed the “popcorn defense."
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2014/0115/Florida-popcorn-shooting-Are-concealed-guns-about-self-defense-or-power-video

I once was talking to a local police officer who told me that the state of Florida really frowns on attacks on the elderly. He basically said it was far more possible to end up in prison for shooting a man who attacks if you are 64 years old than you would if you were just one year older.

On the other hand an ex police officer with as much experience as Reeves should have received a lot
of training in how to subdue a suspect. He had probably had to do so a number of times during his career. If, when he was a cop, he had shot someone who threw a bag of popcorn at him, at the best, he would have lost his badge.

Most of the police officers that I have met were fair and polite. Still I have encountered a few with an authoritarian personality who love to enforce the rules to the letter. Perhaps Reeves falls into this category.

I actually became a much more polite individual once I got my carry permit. It is foolish to start an argument over something minor as it might escalate into something serious. It is quite possible that I will have to make a split second decision on using my handgun to defend myself and the legal system will devote hours and hours to deciding if I had good reason to do so. I better be right!

I understand that you oppose concealed carry and you will do your best to promote the idea that anyone who legally carries a handgun must be either extremely fearful and paranoid or blood thirsty and hoping for the chance to blow someone away. In reality, the overwhelming majority of those who are licensed to carry are neither.

Be aware that over 1,000,000 Florida residents have a license to carry concealed. If we were as bad as you suggest, Zimmerman/Martin incidents and shootings like this would be everyday events in Florida.

[Starboard Tack]

30. I appreciate your thoughtful response.

However, I don't think you are typical either. This is evident from your post and your previous posts. You and LP are 2 of the exceptions IMO. I get no sense of gun nuttery from either of you. You may well be right, though, that the majority are as sensible as you. In fact, I hope you're right. Otherwise, the streets would truly be running with blood. The problem as I see it, is not those who are responsible, but with the odds that, as the numbers increase, more events like this will occur. The Zimmermans and Reeves don't have to represent a high percentage of carriers in order to cause a lot of carnage. This guy Reeves made it to 71 before he blew it. Zimmerman got his gun back. Do you think the numbers will go down as more permits are issued?
But permits are one thing. I have no real objection to the issuance of a permit. I take issue with the mindset of feeling the need for one, regardless of where and when. I don't think society does itself any favors by promoting habitual carry.

I took a trip to the dark side earlier today, and saw Freepers posts. One post was against CCW, because it puts you in the system and invites getting pulled over and having your car searched. Am I to assume from this, that mostly law abiding Dems and moderate Republicans have permits, and many Libertarians don't give a damn about a permit 'cos they don't believe it necessary?

There are valid arguments on both sides of this issue, but the bottom line is always going to be that the more guns carried the greater potential that shootings will occur. More aberrations like Reeves will use a gun to solve a petty problem. More wannabe cops like Zimmerman will be neighborhood vigilantes.
I don't think you are a reactive person. You don't take your carrying lightly and recognize the responsibility that comes with it. We could say that in a perfect world, all would have the same attitude as you and LP, but that is wishful thinking. We could also say that in perfect world there would be no need for guns, but that is also wishful thinking.

Stay safe down there in Fla..

[gejohnston]

33. please define "gun nuttery"?

I have the distinct feeling my picture would be next to your definition. If my love of the Enlightenment philosophers like John Locke and Thomas Paine, so be it. I think both should be mandatory reading in school.
From my observation, Spin and LP is the vast majority. That is from actual observation and not depending on poorly written rants like the op ed in the OP, or the media created myths that seem to endure even when debunked with overwhelming evidence. That is why I would make a poor ideologue.
Is it equally valid that James Schiliro a typical MAIG? How about the misogynist POS MAIG member Bob Filner? Oh, then there is the former mayor of Detroit who thought the city treasury was his personal bank account, and the Monticello, NY, mayor MAIG member (who was a felon when elected) who punches out clocks and makes racist rants while being booked for DUI. Should we say they are typical of gun control advocates?

[spin]

38. In my years of shooting and talking to gun owners I have met two ...

who said they were unwilling to get a carry permit as this would put them into the system.

One was a well known doctor in St. Petersburg Fl. and the other worked at a gun range.

It should be fairly obvious to any intelligent person that considering the data mining capacity that our government has, it can quickly come up with a damn good list of all gun owners in our nation.

!) Do you subscribe to magazines devoted to the shooting sports?

2) Do you buy ammo or reloading supplies using a credit card?

3) Are you a member of the NRA or the GOA?

4) Do you belong to a gun range?

5) Do you make posts on the internet supporting gun rights?

6) Do you have a Facebook page showing pictures of you and your firearms?

If you answer "yes" to any of these questions, your government probably could determine that you are a gun owner.

Is the government going to ban and confiscate your guns in the next few years and should you coat some of your weapons in Cosmoline and put them and a quantity of ammo in a PCP pipe buried in a remote location? Sounds a bit extreme to me as i don't see gun confiscation anytime soon in our nation. Any attempt to do so would tear our nation right down the middle. We can argue all day long if the government would be able to win, but the level of violence and disruption that would result makes the idea unfeasible.

I personally feel our background check system needs to be improved to make sure that those who suffer significant mental issues could be eliminated from buying and from legally carrying firearms. I'm not sure how this might be accomplished and doubt if it can.

Some states are allowing unlimited carry and require no permit to do so. I suspect this may be a mistake although the statistics don't show this yet. Perhaps I am wrong.

I do believe that gun manufacturers are profiting by promoting the idea that our society is an extremely dangerous place and any wise individual should own a firearm. On the other hand gun control advocates insist that our society is so violent that we need to pass extremely strong gun control to curb the wave of violence.

The fact is that violent crime in our nation has fallen to levels last seen in the late 1960s and in some states is at an all time low.

Perhaps if the media were to emphasis this, the average citizen would realize that it is not the most important thing in his life to buy a firearm for self defense and also while it is important to improve our gun laws, it is not essential to greatly restrict or ban and confiscate firearms.

Perhaps then we might move to improve our failing mental health care system which might do far more to reduce some of the tragic incidents we have endured recently then either arming everybody or banning all firearms.

[Starboard Tack]

41. Thanks for another thoughtful and well reasoned post.

You are right. There are no easy answers. Some things are very hard to undo.

Unfortunately, many of the proposals from the Control side are bandaids, but sometimes bandaids will stem the bleeding.

Both side are selling fear, that is true, but only one side is profiting from it, and I find that quite reprehensible.

You may be right about the reduction of violent crime, but it is difficult to associate that in any way with gun sales or with legislation. There are so many other factors that come into play. Factors which could change rapidly with economic or political instability.

[spin]

44. Firearm and ammo sales absolutely skyrocketed after Obama was elected and also ...

after Sandy Hook.

I was worried about this as I feared gun violence would dramatically and firearm related accidents would also rise. I also feared the Great Recession would cause an increase in the crime rate.

It appears that neither made much difference.

I can only deduct that allowing most citizens to buy firearms and stockpile ammo is not the prime driver in the violent crime equation. Nor is the bad economy.

While I feel that more guns does not necessarily result in more crime and violence, I still feel our current gun laws could be modified to make it more difficult for criminals and those legally adjudged as having serious mental issues to be able to obtain firearms.

I believe the prime factor in the decreasing crime rate is due to proactive police programs used in many major cities and the advent of both street cameras and cell phones.

[lumpy]

31. Gun carriers can become a problem when they carry gun because they are paranoid, as Mr. Reeves

appears to be.

[spin]

35. My point is that most people who legally carry concealed are NOT like Mr. Reeves. ...

Unfortunately when a state has over 1,000,000 people licensed to carry, a very few paranoid, aggressive or mentally ill individuals will slip through and get a permit.

Take any random sample of 1,000,000 people and you will find that when compared to the record of those licensed to carry in Florida, the random sample will show the higher level of crimes committed.

Florida has allowed "shall issue" concealed carry since Oct. 1987 and in that period of time only 168 concealed weapons permits have been revoked for a crime committed after the license was issued. You can review this data at: http://www.freshfromflorida.com/content/download/7499/118851/cw_monthly.pdf

Texas offers even better statistics on crime committed by those who have a carry permit at: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/reports/convrates.htm

This largely shows that when you look at two surveys, one invoicing those who have passed a background check and the other without this requirement, those will a background check will commit fewer crimes in the future. Hardly surprising.

Of course the national main stream media rarely discusses these statistics but instead focuses on the rare incidents that involve the misuse of a firearm by someone who has a carry permit. It's extremely rare to hear a story at the national level about how a person with a carry permit saved his own life or the life of another person but it often happens. The local media may report such a story but in most cases, an attacker will flee when he realizes his victim is armed. Such incidents rarely make even the local news.

A story on a murder by a person with a carry permit will receive 24/7 attention on the national news media for a week or more. Hardly balanced reporting

It's easy to see why people believe that allowing honest, responsible and well trained people to carry in public is a terrible idea because the media usually gives them only one side of the story.

I will admit that we are far from angels and we definitely do have a few bad apples in our ranks. Still I personally believe that allowing well qualified citizens to legally carry firearms has saved far more lives than it has cost.

[Lizzie Poppet]

26. Thank you for the kind words!

I don't think I'm much of an aberration, though. But like you, I can only base that on my obviously limited personal experience. My own circle of gun enthusiast friends is certainly atypical in many respects (liberal, for one thing, and also tending to be "goth/industrial" folks, etc.,,boy do we get some odd looks at the shooting range, at least from non-regulars!), but they all feel more-or-less as I do in terms of the ethics of using lethal force.

[sir pball]

6. I've seen maybe three "pro-carry folk try to spin this"

All over at Freepland - and they're still 10-1 against this guy. When those clowns are throwing you under the clown car you know you're really screwed.

[gejohnston]

7. actually not

your understanding of the law, which exists in most states and all federal reservations, has nothing to do with it. Statistically, cops are less responsible than private citizens with CCWs. He is a retired cop that was exempt from many of the same rules the rest of us go by.
My favorite is how the Pasco County Sheriff makes a fool out of CNN's resident pompous fool Piers Morgan

[Ranchemp.]

9. gejohnston: you're being too nice,

Sheriff Nocco didn't make a fool of Piers Morgan, he made an ass of him.
You can clearly see Piers getting more and more frustrated when the Sheriff doesn't agree with Piers constant anti gun rants.
It's rather funny to watch Piers get agitated because he truly believed that the Sheriff would agree with his POV on guns.

[Starboard Tack]

12. So, what substance abuse or mental health issue caused this homicide?

Sounds like Reeves is a control freak and quite popular with his former colleagues. Should control freaks be excluded from CC?
Interesting that his son, also a Tampa cop, was with him and didn't intervene. Kinda supports the control freak label.

[gejohnston]

14. I don't think there is a test to weed out control freaks

although the military, at least the Air Force and Army, likes to think they do when looking for drill instructors.
Most control freaks I know are opposed to gun ownership, but that may be a Wyoming and Florida thing. Law enforcement and corrections do attract that type of personality. I think control freaks should be excluded from having children and holding public office. In this case, his CCW would be as a retired cop, which isn't the same as Spin's.
While the son's reaction, or lack of, could be evidence of that, I don't take anything the media says as gospel.

[Starboard Tack]

22. Yet the sherriff seemed to think the solution is mental health and substance abuse

So, either he's being a tad disingenuous, or he's not thinking too hard.
Police departments, along with others who intend to carry firearms for personal use, should undergo serious psych evaluation and training. I know that is not a popular notion, but it would save countless lives. It would weed out guys like this, who has a history of being a control freak and of having a short fuse. Sounds like he was a perfect candidate for anger management therapy.

[gejohnston]

25. or simply his observation

based on his experience in Pasco County or this specific case.

Police departments, along with others who intend to carry firearms for personal use, should undergo serious psych evaluation and training.

I'll agree to it if and when psych becomes a hard science. Much of the "illnesses" seem to be marketing ploys for big Pharma or a tool to push conformity. I don't know about "countless lives" since it implies that it is common. If it were common, it wouldn't be news.

It would weed out guys like this, who has a history of being a control freak and of having a short fuse. Sounds like he was a perfect candidate for anger management therapy.

Maybe, but we are basing the discussion on scant information written by people with little access to the investigation.
This is the answer I would have given Morgan, although it probably wouldn't apply in this case.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=135020

[Starboard Tack]

37. "If it were common, it wouldn't be news" - Really?

Do think suicide bombings are rare in Iraq and Afghanistan and a few other places? Is that why they never make the news?

I'm not really interested in the interviewer or the TV personalities, but if they ask pertinent questions I am interested in the answers, including the body language of the interviewee. Your answer is not bad, but as you say, doesn't apply here any more than the sheriff's answer.

Of course psych isn't a "hard" science. Neither is any field of medicine, but that doesn't invalidate it. It would be a helluva lot better than the current "let's just wing it and hope for the best" system.

[gejohnston]

40. not the same question

They are relatively rare. I seriously doubt there are suicide bombings in Utah. Why does an overpriced Webley knock off make international news?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172135723
Why isn't IOF being hammered by the media like, say, Smith and Wesson would be?
Here is a question, if a kindergarten teacher gets killed while leaving a birthday party by a some guy with a machine gun in the US, it would make the papers in the UK. Yet, Sabrina Moss didn't even get a mention in the US.

Knowing what you are talking about matters. Although the sheriff's answer may have not been the best, but better than Morgan's. The sheriff also is likely to know details of the case not mentioned in the media, and certainly too nuanced and complex for Morgan's simple mind.

I always thought that biochemistry, biology, and genetics that medicine depends on were hard sciences.

[Starboard Tack]

42. Diagnostic medicine is not hard science.

It may refer to hard sciences, but in the end, a diagnosis is made based on as much info as possible. The hard sciences you mention are all valid and could be used to determine suitability of an individual for many things, including handling firearms.
It's a tricky area, but it's doable.

You seem to have too much of a personal problem with this Morgan guy. It gets in the way of your argument.

The Sabrina Moss incident didn't make the papers in the US because shootings are an hourly occurrence in the US. Plus nobody in the US cares what is happening in the UK, unless it involves the royal family or some pop idol. You have as many shootings in one day as the UK has in a year. All shootings make the papers in the UK. If that were the case in the US, you would run out of paper really fast, not to mention readers.

[gejohnston]

45. that is true of any diagnostics

It may refer to hard sciences, but in the end, a diagnosis is made based on as much info as possible. The hard sciences you mention are all valid and could be used to determine suitability of an individual for many things, including handling firearms.
It's a tricky area, but it's doable.

Should public policy be set around the rare and unusual? I stand by my earlier post about Wayne La Pierre's scapegoating and I'm skeptical of subjective tests for civil liberties/individual rights.

You seem to have too much of a personal problem with this Morgan guy. It gets in the way of your argument.

Yes, I detest ignorant self righteous buffoons who seem to think that just because someone puts a camera in front of you, you become instantly credible. I have the same problem with Bill O'Reilley, Martin Bashir, and Larry O'Donnell.

The Sabrina Moss incident didn't make the papers in the US because shootings are an hourly occurrence in the US. Plus nobody in the US cares what is happening in the UK, unless it involves the royal family or some pop idol. You have as many shootings in one day as the UK has in a year. All shootings make the papers in the UK. If that were the case in the US, you would run out of paper really fast, not to mention readers.

A kindergarten teacher getting killed with a machine gun would make the papers in the US. Almost all of our shootings are gang members and drug dealers shooting at each other with pistols. Automatic weapons are almost never used in the US. As long as criminals kill each other, most people don't care. The people who do care about being in the crossfire have to deal with politicians who are in bed with the gangs, like in Chicago. (New York's Boss Tweed and Tim Sullivan may be dead, but their business model isn't). Given the number of big city mayors, including many MAIG members, who find themselves removed from office by the criminal justice system indicates it wasn't just NYC 100 years ago, or Chicago today.

[SecularMotion]

13. Pasco County Sheriff is a gun nut

I'm not sure about the rest of his force, but this doesn't look good.

Retired Pasco County Sheriff's Deputy William Tinny arrested for trying to kill wife

Hernando County, Florida -- A retired deputy from the Pasco County Sheriff's Office is being held without bond Wednesday after he was arrested for trying to kill his wife.

Hernando Sheriff's deputies say William Tinny and his wife, Rebecca, had gotten into an argument earlier in the evening Tuesday. Later that night around 1:45 a.m., William went into the bedroom where Rebecca was sleeping with one of her children and woke her up.

The two started arguing again and Rebecca told police, William told her he would "put an end to her" and that he was going to kill her.

He then left the room to get a gun. Rebecca and her younger child locked the bedroom door, but William broke the frame forcing his way inside. He then pointed a pistol at her and she reached out and was able to push his arm away to keep him from shooting her.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=353005

[SecularMotion]

15. Appointed by Gov. Rick Scott

The Pasco County Sheriff's Office (PSO) is the law enforcement agency responsible for Pasco County, Florida. The current Sheriff is Chris Nocco, who was appointed by Governor Rick Scott

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasco_County_Sheriff%27s_Office

Sheriff: no professional courtesy in arrest of accused Pasco theater shooter

Meanwhile, some are questioning the manner in which deputies took 71-year-old Curtis Reeves into custody. Video shows Reeves casually walking several feet behind a sheriff's deputy to an awaiting patrol car.

Sheriff Chris Nocco says the video does not show the big picture.

"What people don't see on camera is the amount of deputies we had on scene," said Nocco. "We had a tremendous amount of deputies there. There was never a chance he was going to escape. We also, in our general orders, because he was an elderly individual. We were able to put the cuffs in front."

Others wonder if Reeves was given special treatment as a former law enforcement officer. Nocco says, no way.

http://www.wfla.com/story/24463378/no-professional-courtesy-in-arrest-of-accused-theater-shooter

[Ranchemp.]

16. WTF does this have to do with the Sheriff?

Are you doing the guilt by association thingy?

[gejohnston]

17. He is actually typical of law enforcemment who are not

political appointees. This guy retired before the current guy was elected. If you are going for the guilt by association, MAIG members
http://www.delcotimes.com/general-news/20131114/breaking-marcus-hook-mayor-jay-schiliro-guilty-on-all-counts-in-bizarre-incident
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/11/17/monticello-mayor-arrested-on-dwi-charge/
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/28660061/
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Bob-Filner-Sex-Harassment-Allegations-Recall-Resign-Mayor-San-Diego-215089301.html

BTW, the the article is D work for a Jr High student and is incoherent and poorly researched. It was scribbled by someone trying to play amateur shrink.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

47. re: "...surely it would make your job...easier..."

Well, there's point. Let's do whatever would make law enforcement more effective, faster and, hell, just plain easier. Let's have a new tax just so we can buy every cop and agent a good rubber hose. Let's tap every phone and, oh wait, we do sometimes...


However, those laws about rights and self-defense, those are the ones we're going to compromise in order to achieve all that "easier" stuff. I wrote to CNN some time ago and promised two things: first, that CNN would be behind CBS, ABC and NBC in my choices for news on TV and, second, should I ever see or hear Morgan, the channel would be changed immediately. This is the first time in over a year that I've seen or heard him. He's still just an ass.

[Ranchemp.]

8. There's no "spin" to this incident,

he carried a gun into the theater against the theater's policy, he shot and killled a man over texting and was arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder.
Seems to be an appropriate charge unless we don't know something.

[Lizzie Poppet]

3. I'd imagine it varies.

In this particular case, my instinctive reaction is to suspect a power-tripping ex-cop (with anger issues), but I have to admit a degree of "observer bias" there.

On a broader basis, I think the motivation for concealed carry varies quite a bit. In my own case, it's definitely protection (I'm a small female...mechanical advantage appeals to me). For a number of reasons, I don't really "get" that social dominance monkey stuff. I understand using the weapon to enforce behavior, and I'd certainly do that to avoid harm, if possible (no sane person wants to shoot another human being). But I see that as a protection usage...

[Loudly]

4. Power. Imposing one's will. Settling personal grievances.

And, of course, defending oneself against others who have obtained guns and ammo in a society awash with that shit.

[Ranchemp.]

10. And Loudly/Shares joins the debate with his

thoroughly debunked opinion.

[otohara]

18. Guns Are The New Middle Finger

when a middle finger just isn't enough in angry hateful America.

[Ranchemp.]

19. LOL.

Riiiiiight!

[DonP]

21. So with fewer shooting events every year, we must be getting more polite, right?

[otohara]

27. 30,000 Deaths Per Year = Polite

I suppose the gun folks think this is an improvement - not me, it's sickening and I am scared.
Don't go out much anymore - buy everything online except groceries.
Here in CO if you go to a movie, they now tell you to look for the exit doors, just in case some sick dick with
a gun starts shooting.

[gejohnston]

28. 20K of which are suicides

which is a different issue.
The vast majority of the rest people with criminal records shooting at each other. I was always told to look for exits in case of fire. Mass murder by arson tends to have a higher death toll than by shooting.

[sarisataka]

20. Semi-rhetorical question...

is it progressive to judge an entire group of people by the actions of one member? And in this case are we going to judge CCW holders, retired police officers, the elderly, all of the above or other?

What we have in this case is a retired officer, authorized to carry in any/every city and state in the U.S. who has apparently committed murder. He has been arrested and will face trial. My long distance knowledge based on news reports is that he is guilty as sin and should face life imprisonment. Maybe there are unreported mitigating circumstances but I cannot imagine what they could be, unless there was a brick in the popcorn.

[ileus]

29. personal safety device....for personal defense.

And that of your family of course...