For the loonies who think giving guns to little kids is cool. As cool as teaching them to lie.

[Starboard Tack]

6-Year-Old Shoots 4-Year-Old Sister, Father Tells Him To Lie
The loony, gun obsessed, right-wing idiots of our beautifully screwed up country love to say that the gun problem we have is not their fault. The problem we have is that criminals buy stolen firearms and they are the ones who are causing all of the problems. Real gun-loving Americans are super-duper responsible and do everything right! They are properly trained, they practice gun safety, they are responsible and protecting their rights as ‘Muricans dammit! Yeppers….the problem lies solely at the feet of criminals. Except it doesn’t and Fred B. Maphis’ arrest in Wisconsin for telling his six-year-old son to lie about how he shot his little sister is more proof that their ‘scary criminal’ theory is total bullshit.

48-year-old Maphis was watching television in his Alma, Wisconsin home on August 30th when he heard a gunshot followed by screams. He ran into the other room to find his 6-year-old son trying to clean up blood and his 4-year-old daughter with a gunshot wound to the side of her head. He wrapped her wound in towels and rushed her to the local hospital. What a terrifying ordeal for this responsible gun owning father!

Maphis’ son told the Jackson County Sheriff’s deputies that he dropped the shotgun and it went off. Maphis explained that his firearms are usually unloaded and locked up but he forgot to put it away after shooting at birds the previous day. Instead, his shotgun was loaded and sitting on top of a dog kennel. The boy later admitted to police that he did not drop the gun at all, that’s what his father told him to say. He explained to officers that his sister asked him to point the gun at her and he did but got to close to her head. He actually meant to just shoot over her shoulder.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/09/18/6-year-old-shoots-4-year-old-sister-father-tells-him-to-lie/

This kid has been shooting since he was 3. Yep, 3 years old, according to his momma. Stand aside Davey Crockett.

Of course, we all know that these events are "statistically insignificant" when compared to the millions of lives saved every year by responsible gun owners with concealed carry permits.

[Glaug-Eldare]

1. Have they released the daughter's condition?

I hope she makes it through alright. Dad's gotta be held accountable for this'n.

[Jenoch]

2. I read somewhere that the injuries were non-life threatening.

[ileus]

3. 3 is a little young

For unsupervised shooting. A friend of mine lets his 3 yo girl shoot his p22 using the muffler but at that age you have to be right there. I didn't start mine until 6&8 or 5&7 if I remember correctly.

My son is 9 and I'll let him load his single shot 22 and shoot it on his own while we're at the range, but I wont let him have total control of the ARs or any pistol. Safety first....during family fun time.

And when I say load and shoot I mean he's at one station and I'm right beside him normally shooting one of my SD pistols or the HD AR.

I also don't allow him to hunt alone or with anyone else. (Adult or otherwise)

Stay safe and happy shooting.

[bulloney]

5. A LITTLE young?

You have to be at least 21 before you can purchase alcoholic beverages. You have to be at least 16 before you can get a driver's license. But let a 3 YEAR OLD handle a firearm? Perfectly fine.

Seems like we have some misplaced priorities in this country.

[Starboard Tack]

10. He's a joker

In fact, I seriously doubt that Ileus has ever been near a gun. He just likes to play the "gun nut".

[bulloney]

12. I was just pointing out that you have to be a young adult to legally do a lot of things.

But a 3 year old can own and operate a firearm and a lot of people in a lot of places don't seem to think there's anything wrong or strange with that.

I got a whiff of Ileus' sarcasm in his posting.

[Jenoch]

13. A 3 year old cannot legally own a firearm.

[Starboard Tack]

14. How old does a kid have to be?

[Jenoch]

16. 18 for a long gun and 21 for a handgun

I'm surprised you were unaware of this.

[Starboard Tack]

22. Why would I know that? I didn't grow up here.

And I have never bought a firearm here or given one to a child. I don't hunt, I don't live in fear of my fellow humans and I have better things to do with my money. When I go target shooting, I always borrow a friend's gun.
We have members who claim that they have kids as young as 9 who own guns. Apparently it's all part of "family fun time".

I had a .177 air rifle when I was a kid (9 or 10 years old) and loved it. I think kids between 12 and 18 are old enough to shoot firearms under close supervision of a responsible (and liable) adult. But kids under 10 having their own firearms is really fucked up.

[Jenoch]

33. You seem to comment a lot about guns and gun laws.

I thought you might be responsible enough to become knowledgeable on the subject. Apparently I was mistaken.

[Starboard Tack]

34. I comment mainly on people and their behavior.

I enjoy shooting guns occasionally, but I am not an enthusiast. The laws are interesting, but appear to be pretty ineffective. What interests me most is the culture of guns and how society deals with it. As advanced as the US is, it is still going through growing pains in many ways. The gun debate reflects that.
Guns are not the problem, imo. Attitude is the problem.

[Jenoch]

42. I tend to agree with you about the people problem.

If your point about 'growing pains' is the eventual removal of guns from the hands of the public and the street cops, I do not agree with you.

[Starboard Tack]

44. no, it's not about removal of guns

It's about behavior

[Jenoch]

45. Ok, I guess I was trying to read between

the lines to see you implying that the reference to 'growing pains' meant the U.S. needs to grow up to have gun laws such as those in the Britain.

[Starboard Tack]

46. Not so much laws as a more mature attitude.

I'm not a fan of prohibitive laws regarding anything, but when dealing with children it's sometimes necessary to exercise a little parental control. Unfortunately, that usually means all the good kids get punished for the sins of the few. I would hate to see that happen here, but it looks like that's the way it will eventually turn out.
The vast majority of gun owners are a sensible and decent lot, but the whackjobs who promote carrying guns everywhere, just because it is legal, are screwing it up for everyone else.

[gejohnston]

47. I don't think that's the case

I think even if there were no "whack jobs" the prohibitionists would be in full force. CCW liberalization and "coming out" stunts at Starbucks is push back against the prohibition lobby. IOW, it isn't children acting out. It is, to paraphrase Amy Goodman, "taking exception to the rulers", or those who wish they were rulers.
In the 1950s all of this would be unheard of. While open carry was and is perfectly legal in Wyoming and many states, but it was rare to nonexistent. The one or two people who did was for practical reasons and not making a political statement. Today it is "sticking it to the man."
In the 1950s, the nerdy kids took their rifles to school for rifle club, even in NYC while King Bad Ass had a cool switch blade like James Dean's. IOW, the "parents" (it is still a repulsive and condescending analogy) (ie, authoritarians, urban elitists) started a campaign of characterizing gun owners and rural people in general as loathsome bigots and Jerry Springer guests while pushing for stricter laws (you might have missed that era here.) . In keeping with the US' individualistic character, it became a huge "up yours". Why? Two reasons are obvious: The gun control movement (in its recent incarnation. Yes there was some racism in early laws like Florida's open carry ban in the 1890s and various gun bans in the South prior to the Civil Rights Era.) is largely classist. Another is the absurdity of telling some guy in Wyoming who shoots only tin cans that he or she is to blame for Detroit's problems.
A primer of where I'm coming from:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Redneck-Manifesto-Hillbillies-Scapegoats/dp/0684838648

One more thing: It is the house of representatives, not the house of parents or leaders. Not that they do a great job of representing much of the time, but that is their job.

[gejohnston]

43. growning pains

You mean a country is fully mature when:
the Crown puts you on trial for wall decorations:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-24047350

You have to prove your innocence for having a Swiss Army Knife in your pocket, even though the blade is legal length.

a soldier gets hacked to death by a nut with a machete and just gets his picture taken while waiting for cops

Point their fingers and rant when there is a mass killing in a former colony, but is "meh" when a kindergarten teacher is machine gunned at a birthday party in their own.

Adolescence looks very good doesn't it?

[cui bono]

26. Then why are parents letting 3 year olds handle guns?

They can be charged for giving minors alcohol.

[hack89]

32. Children can handle guns if they are supervised by an adult. nt

[cui bono]

35. That's my point.

An adult gets arrested if they give a minor alcohol, so...

[gejohnston]

36. The Gun Control Act was written so that

minors could not buy guns, but allowed parents to introduce their kids in the shooting sports and allowed the kids to compete and hunt. That is also why the Brady Bill as specific exemptions for minors possessing handguns.
I totally get that many gun control advocates, detest the shooting sports entirely (you notice it in Australia). You notice it in GD as well. That is why they want to make it harder for non criminals to own guns. Some naively believe that will also prevent criminals from getting them, but many do not.

[cui bono]

40. Yeah, I guess my feeling is it should have the same restrictions as alcohol or driving a car.

After all, it is just as dangerous if not more so than either of those. Kids get driving permits around 15, so why not do the same for guns? I think that's completely reasonable considering it's a lethal weapon. The law being as it is just makes no sense to me - having an age where you're allowed to legally own a gun but then allowing you to handle one when you're still a toddler. That's ridiculous to me.

[gejohnston]

41. Toddler is stupid

but ages can very. The most important thing is that the kid be old enough to know it isn't a toy and respect the fact that it is a lethal weapon. That is best taught by demonstration. Nothing gets your attention than watching what a .357 will do to a watermelon followed by "these are not toys". That got my attention very quickly at a very young age.
I guess it would freak you out to know that before joining the EU, Finland allowed 15 year olds to buy guns. it is now 18 with the rest of EU. France was 16.
In Canada, you have to be 18 to buy or own a handgun or long gun. They also have a minors permit. That allows 12-18 year olds to posssess "unrestricted" firearms and buy ammunition. Yes a 12 YO can go in a gun store in Canada and buy a box of .223 shells. Not handgun ammo though, since they are restricted. So, if the family wants to make a quick stop at Tim Horton's on the way to go hunting. You have Dad with a PAL, Mom without a PAL, and Jr with a minors permit. Mom can't stay alone in the car with the gun, but Jr. can.

[hack89]

37. Because it is illegal to do so with alcohol. Not so for guns

you are not going to win this one - you are simply out of touch with a broad swath of America.

You don't like guns. We get it.

[cui bono]

38. You are being overly defensive.

You can't possibly have found out enough about me to have come to those conclusions based on facts.

[hack89]

39. We will see. nt

[bulloney]

17. In some of these recent accidental shootings involving young children

the parents acknolwedged the gun as belonging to the child.

[Jenoch]

19. They can say that all they wish to

but it does not make it so. I received a .12 gauge shotgun for my 12th birthday, but the gun legally belonged to my father.

[bulloney]

24. And you can parse words and get into semantics all you want.

But it doesn't change the fact that in some of the cases mentioned, the gun belonged to the kid. One of the parents whose 5 year old son accidentally shot another child acknowledged that the child received the gun when he was four years old.

I've found that when someone engages in this kind of debating, they've lost the argument. I remember Michael Moore's critics slamming Fahrenheit 9-11 because Moore said Bush was reading the book titled "My Pet Goat" while the attacks were taking place. The title was actually "The Pet Goat." They tried to discredit all of Moore's statements over the title of the book, which was nothing but a ruse to get people's attention off the central theme of the movie.

[Jenoch]

28. I don't give a damn about Moore.

Of course all guns in a household should be locked up. They were locked up when I was a kid. The guns in my house are locked up. If somebody gives a kid a gun and it isn't locked up (a violation of state law in Minnesota) then the parent should be prosecuted. It is illegal for anyone under 18 to 'own' a gun of any kind.

[Eleanors38]

30. The main concern is a child's maturity, safe weapon storage, and supervision.

My Dad showed me how to fire a .32 revolver when I was 7-8, a .22 rifle a couple years later, then a shotgun. Carried the latter hunting for the first time when 12 yoa. I had my own shotgun at 13. This kind if indoctrination is done all over the country, generation after generation, and the problems are rare.

[NYC_SKP]

4. I think every single member of DU would agree that the derp was strong with this gentleman.

RW idiots: it is their fault; criminals are not causing all the problems; gun-loving americans don't do everything right, and very few people are properly trained.

That's why, among other measures, I'd required comprehensive gun safety training of every gun owner... Households with children might have to go through additional training or be required to show adequate means to safely store them.

This jackass obviously left loaded guns lying around.

This is tragic and criminal.

I think everyone here would agree.

Maybe this OP is written for lurking Freepers, because it can't be meant for DU members.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

8. Maybe this OP is written for lurking Freepers, because it can't be meant for DU members.

I would certainly hope so. I suggest the OP get a blog.

[Starboard Tack]

15. Correct, but sometimes they are one and the same

I am getting a blog soon, but it will have nothing to do with firearms.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

18. MIRt weeds them out very quickly ... the pro side that is ... the control side ... uhm ...

not so much.

[Starboard Tack]

20. MIRT does a pretty good job of weeding out on entry

But many have slipped through and established themselves over time. People like Clames, Atypical Liberal, Abin Sur (Johnny Rico), PavePusher, 4th Law of Robotics.
I acknowledge that only a few are left on the gun nut side, and most of them keep a low profile, but they have been in the vast majority in the past.
But, while we are here, let me ask you, do you think it is OK for 9 year old kids and younger to own firearms?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

25. Under Nine ... ? No, I don't think so. Although, in days gone by young boys would have

been expected to provide small game as food on the table, squirrels, rabbit and fowl. To this day, I don't doubt that young boys of the Appalachia (third world here in America) are doing this and I would not judge the parents harshly for it.

own and possessing ... under strict control and guidance ...a BB gun or a rifle to shoot small game.

[Starboard Tack]

27. Agreed

I've spent a considerable amount of time living in Appalachia and have a lot of family there, most of them living in remote "hollers". Most of them hunt and the kids learn early on how to handle and respect firearms, though bows tend to be more popular for hunting these days. I don't judge anyone who acts responsibly.
Teaching little kids that the only way to live safely in society is to carry a gun does not fall into that category.

[SoutherDem]

6. No this was not a responsible gun owning father.

But, good sarcasm.

[rl6214]

7. And you say you don't have an agenda.

[Starboard Tack]

23. Not regarding gun control. No, I don't

If I have an agenda, it is to point out extreme behavior and encourage moderation.

[rl6214]

29. Yes you do

Every post you make is anti gun, you can kid yourself you can't kid us.

[Starboard Tack]

31. Wrong again. I'm anti idiot, not anti gun.

Guns have a purpose, idiots are just idiots.

[gejohnston]

9. if they have to use propaganda techniques like name calling,

stacking the deck, or the various logical fallacies like appeal to emotion and appeal to prejudice, I dismiss them out of hand. That is part of my opposition to gun control.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_calling

Between this post and Piers Morgan's childish rants, I have to wonder if UK schools teach critical thinking.

[Starboard Tack]

11. Oh, nice one GE. No name calling there. Tsk! tsk!

[Straw Man]

21. Association fallacy.

Next!