Pro gun control groups clone NRA tactics

[Nasty Jack]

For years the National Rifle Assn. (NRA) led by wacky Wayne LaPierre has used its money to defeat any candidate that is for gun control. With contributions of nearly $39 million from gun manufacturers since 2005, the NRA spent $25 million in 2012 to elect and re-elect, or to target and defeat congressional lawmakers considering gun control legislation. So it seems natural that the gun control folks would eventually adopt the same strategy but in the opposite direction. They did.

Michael Bloomberg spent over $2 million in an Illinois primary to elect gun-control candidate Robin Kelly. With Bloomberg's deep pockets and his super PAC Independence USA, fighting gun violence will be well financed in 2014.

Another group, Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America, founded by Shannon Watts had added 80,000 members in just three months with 80 chapters nationwide. There are over 85 million mothers in the U.S. which could become a formidable force in the 2014 elections. The question is just how much money will this group be able to raise to defeat the pro gun bubbas in Congress next year. 70% of women support banning assault weapons, 90% for universal background checks according to Pew Research.

As a congressional candidate, I wouldn't want to be going up against this fired up group, even in conservative states.

Read more here: link:http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/03/06/new-money-will-be-used-to-punish-pro-gun-lawmakers-in-2014|

[av8r1998]

1. you need to

Log into ct now.com
And watch the footage of the awb hearing.
The NRA has left us for dead, but gun supporters out number gun grabbers by 10-1.
Where's bloomie?

[spin]

3. Most media outlets are saying that the AWB is DOA and probably will not pass in the Senate. ...

That's not just because of the big bad NRA which the media and the gun control groups would have you believe.

The reality is that 80,000,000 people own firearms in our nation and when you couple that figure with voting age members of their families who support gun rights, you end up with a very large and powerful voting block.

In some very liberal states the gun control movement is very powerful but the senators and representatives they send to Congress are offset by those elected in Red states where gun rights are important.

However honest and responsible gun owners do support efforts to reduce gun violence in our nation. In order to enlist their support, the gun control movement and those who support it have to start banning the use of the word "ban."

[gejohnston]

2. they have been for years

the difference is that the NRA gets money from individuals sending in tens and twenties and the gun control groups do not. All of their funding comes from the Joyce Foundation and a couple of billionaires.

The 2012 election was a referendum on the economy, Iraq, and other issues.

.

The question is just how much money will this group be able to raise to defeat the pro gun bubbas in Congress next year.

That shows the inherent classim in the gun control movement today. It also demonstrates the problem the Democratic Party has with attracting rural working class voters.

It also under estimates the grassroots power of 80 million gun owners who have something to lose and didn't appreciate being scapegoated and lied to by the likes of billionaires Bloomberg and Trump.

[jimmy the one]

4. not completely a novel idea

... the NRA spent $25 million in 2012 to elect and re-elect, or to target and defeat congressional lawmakers considering gun control legislation. So it seems natural that the gun control folks would eventually adopt the same strategy but in the opposite direction. They did.

It's not completely new, jack, just been in hybernation for awhile (10, 15 years);
.. million mom march in the 90's, & other guncontrol groups supported guncontrol candidates both financially as well as with boots on the ground etc.. but usually the nra outspent them by an order of magnitude (ten times or more).

.. once gwbush backed into his presiduncy in 2000 there wasn't much anyone could do to block gunnut mentality from making way. Cheney was/is one of the biggest gunnuts in american politics, & that's why the awb expired & assault rifles proliferate today - ah, but seems like a trifling when contrasted with the iraq war, squandering the clinton surplus & the financial meltdown, dunnit?.
It's going to take the rest of the decade to undo the damage caused by bush/cheney, in all the devious ways they done did damage.

[Bay Boy]

5. a little clarification:

"For years the National Rifle Assn. (NRA)... has used its money to defeat any candidate that is for gun control."

They attempt to defeat any candidate that is for gun control, they aren't always sucessful.

[spin]

6. Since I live in Florida I know a lot of gun owners. ...

Some are "bubbas" but the majority I know are well educated professionals. I fear you may be painting the 80,000,000 gun owners in our nation with a broad brush.

bub·ba (bb)
n. Slang
1. Chiefly Southern U.S. Brother.
2. A white working-class man of the southern United States, stereotypically regarded as uneducated and gregarious with his peers.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bubba

Bubba is listed as a racial slur on http://www.rsdb.org/slur/bubba

I could also point out that stereotyping is not an indication of a high level of education and is often politically incorrect.

Stereotypes, prejudice and discrimination are understood as related but different concepts.[8][9]
[10][11] Stereotypes are regarded as the most cognitive component, prejudice as the affective and discrimination as the behavioral component of prejudicial reactions.[8][9] In this tripartite view of intergroup attitudes, stereotypes reflect expectations and beliefs about the characteristics of members of groups perceived as different from one's own, prejudice represents the emotional response, and discrimination refers to actions.[8][9]

Although related, the three concepts can exist independently of each other.[9][12] According to Daniel Katz and Kenneth Braly, stereotyping leads to racial prejudice when people emotionally react to the name of a group, ascribe characteristics to members of that group, and then evaluate those characteristics.[10]

Possible prejudicial effects of stereotypes[3] are:

Justification of ill-founded prejudices or ignorance
Unwillingness to rethink one's attitudes and behavior towards stereotyped group
Preventing some people of stereotyped groups from entering or succeeding in activities or fields[13]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype

I should point out that I really am not all that disturbed at your use of the word "bubba." The gun control debate in our nation is very emotional and has led both sides to frequently insult each other. Unfortunately this is one of the reasons we can't make any headway on this issue.

[Nasty Jack]

7. Good reply

and good points but it won't stop me from referring to a certain faction of this group as gun bubbas, or gun worshipers, or gun huggers, and on and on.

By the way, don't think this is why we haven't gotten anywhere in gun control. The reason is we didn't have the real support and the buck$, but now we do

[spin]

8. You are having some success in Blue states. ...

That's not surprising.

However to change national laws you will have to have the same level of success in Red states.

The sad fact is that your efforts will probably insure that a lot of good Democrats will lose elections at local, state and national levels. I fear a backlash in the midterm elections but time will tell.

You can chose to insult me as I have a thick skin and a good sense of humor. I am merely suggesting that we might actually make more headway on the issue of gun control if both sides started showing a little respect toward each other.

I believe that being polite is a virtue so don't expect me to insult you back. Feel free to call me anything you want. Often when I am involved in a discussion and the other poster starts calling me names, I laugh as I realize that I am winning.

[Nasty Jack]

9. My gut tells me

you are not in the faction I call gun bubbas. And based on the fact we are talking about this holds promise so please don't take it seriously.

[spin]

10. I am a gun owner and supporter of gun rights. That doesn't mean that I don't want to see ...

violent gun crime in our nation decrease.

I just want to see truly effective improvements to our current gun laws, better enforcement of them and also improvements to our mental health care system.

It is and will continue to be my opinion that legislation such as the proposed AWB will accomplish little or nothing except to make some people and politicians "feel good."

I also believe that some in the gun control movement wish to use the AWB ban as the first step. If it passes and when it fails, they then will try to ban all semi-automatic firearms followed by all handguns. The end goal is to finally get laws in our nation like those in the UK.

I don't hate or even dislike those who wish to impose truly draconian gun laws. In many cases they have personally experienced tragedies brought on by the misuse of firearms. I also have witnessed both the good and suffered the bad that firearms can cause in my own family.

I also will admit that many of the points made by the gun control movement are valid and many made by the gun rights supporters are flawed.

All I can hope is that someday both sides of the debate will learn to listen to the other sides views in a respectful manner and compromise to find some real solutions.

Of course gun control is not the only serious issue that we have to confront in our nation and today I feel our country is far more divided than it ever has been in my memory. The people we elect to represent us appear to be more interested in their own political future and to their party winning the next election than they are to making our nation a better place to live.

[Nasty Jack]

11. I like your ideas and your attitude

I hope you are somewhere in the forefront on the side of the gun rights folks when this eventually comes down to a "shootout."

I am afraid I completely disagree with you about UK laws. The U.S. should be so lucky to have the low level of gun violence as does the United Kingdom.

[gejohnston]

12. since the lack of violence pre date the laws

I doubt their gun laws deserve the credit.

[spin]

13. The UK was able to pass its laws because that nation never had a strong gun culture. ...

History shows that the British government has often imposed weapons control all the way back to 1181.

1181 ENGLAND

King Henry II enacted the "Assize of Arms", ordering that all weapons in possession of Jews be confiscated on the grounds that Jews, who were supposedly protected by the King, would not have any reason for owning arms. The weapons were turned over to the King's forces. A direct result of this was that there was little they could do to protect themselves when riots broke out less then ten years later.
http://www.jewishhistory.org.il/history.php?startyear=1180&endyear=1189

Prior to our entry into WWII, American citizens aided in an effort to send rifles, handguns and shotguns to England in case they were needed if Germany launched an invasion. After the War ended the British government "cleansed" these weapons from civilian hands. Many of these firearms were turned into police stations and chopped up or burned. (If you are interested in reading about this incident you can download a copy of "Guns" magazine from December 1959 at http://jeffersonian.name/g1959/G1259.pdf. The article starts on page 32 and is named Guns in Our "Bundles for Britain." Obviously the government had a certain distrust of armed "subjects" as its citizens were called in those day and its subjects were willing to comply with the governments confiscation program.

Of course any nation that has few firearms will have a low level of gun violence. So would we if it was possible to ban and confiscate all firearms. The reality is that unlike the UK even if by some miracle we passed laws to ban and confiscate firearms, a high percentage of our citizens would refuse to comply. Efforts to confiscate these weapons would be largely impossible as many police agencies would be unwilling to help. The attempt could lead some states to withdraw from the union.

The UK does have a serious problem with gangs and knife crime. While gun violence in our nation has dropped to levels last seen in the late 1960s, knife crime in the UK has been increasing despite their extremely tough knife laws.

[jimmy the one]

14. bubba is your friend

spin: Some are "bubbas" but the majority I know are well educated professionals. I fear you may be painting the 80,000,000 gun owners in our nation with a broad brush.
Bubba is listed as a racial slur on... stereotyping is not an indication of a high level of education .. often politically incorrect.

I think rather it's 'you' the one painting 'bubba's' with a broad brush. There are several different definitions of bubba, some complimentary, & you selectively choose the most disparaging & apply it to what jack wrote, when as author of his own writings, he is the final arbiter of how he intended the word.

in context, the OP: The question is just how much money will this group be able to raise to defeat the pro gun bubbas in Congress next year.
I hardly see racism in that sentence, especially no malicious racism. There's a poster on here goes by 'bubba yugga', is he calling himself a racist?

Webster's New World College Dict bubba: 1.brother: sometimes used as a familiar term of address 2.close friend
3.a man of the Southern U.S., variously characterized as easygoing, companionable, assertively masculine, uneducated, bigoted, violent, etc.

spin: Stereotypes, prejudice and discrimination are understood as related but different concepts. Stereotypes are regarded...
Possible prejudicial effects of stereotypes are:
Justification of ill-founded prejudices or ignorance
Unwillingness to rethink one's attitudes and behavior towards stereotyped group
Preventing some people of stereotyped groups from entering or succeeding..

Jeez, talk about turning a molehill into a mountain; You know how many southerners consider confederate cavalry officer nathan bedford forrest a hero? or how many other truly racist officers & soldiers heros? & that flag they fly the stars & bars? Aren't you out on a very weak limb here? If you wanna talk prejudice, get some more substance man.

spin: I should point out that I really am not all that disturbed at your use of the word "bubba." The gun control debate in our nation is very emotional and has led both sides to frequently insult each other. Unfortunately this is one of the reasons we can't make any headway on this issue.

Oh, how magnanimous of you, make a cheap shot & then say you're willing to forgive your adversary for the cheap shot you made up within your cheap shot.

The definition of bubba is a name used for someone who is a brother, like a brother or a close friend, or slang for a white, uneducated and assertive man from the southern United States. (noun)
1.An example of Bubba is what you might call your best male friend.
2.An example of Bubba is what you might call a bigoted, working-class man in the South. http://www.yourdictionary.com/bubba

[Nasty Jack]

15. Thanks bubba...the feeling is mutual

However--there is always a "however" with gun control advocates--there were a couple Newtown-like gun massacres in England that did prompt their laws although gun violence in general was not a major issue. There was Hungerford in 1987 where16 were killed and Dunblane in 1996 where 15 children ages 5 and 6 were killed. Within a year and a half, gun control legislation was passed.

Initially the ban appeared to have little effect but then a decrease in gun violence was evident that continued until at least 2010.

Most of the Brits welcomed the gun laws. But does the fact that Great Britain was less violent even before laws were passed tell you something about what I consider an insane American gun culture.

This opinion is based on 300 million guns in U.S. households, 88 per 100 people, almost one gun for every person in this country. And the gun rights fanatics refuse to ban assault rifles with high capacity magazines up to 100 rounds that could only be meant to kill people. And the state of Arizona where I live with the loosest gun laws in the country where literally anyone can buy any kind of gun they want without a background check, no training on how to use it, and then carry their weapon into their favorite bar and have a drink. It's not just insane, it's downright stupid.

[Clames]

16. You might want to do some more research.

Initially the ban appeared to have little effect but then a decrease in gun violence was evident that continued until at least 2010.

I don't know where you are starting from but gun crimes in the UK continued an upward trend at least through 2006 where they dipped a little the trend has virtually flatlined since.

But does the fact that Great Britain was less violent even before laws were passed tell you something about what I consider an insane American gun culture.

Doesn't tell anything about American gun culture. What about drug culture? Gang culture? Attaching stigma to mental illness culture?

And the gun rights fanatics refuse to ban assault rifles with high capacity magazines up to 100 rounds that could only be meant to kill people.

So only fanatics own these weapons? Never even occurred to you that millions of these weapons never kill anything? Any other ignorance-based jems you want to toss out?

And the state of Arizona where I live with the loosest gun laws in the country where literally anyone can buy any kind of gun they want without a background check, no training on how to use it, and then carry their weapon into their favorite bar and have a drink.

Bullshit, bullshit, and more bullshit. Let's stick with reality shall we? Have you actually read the firearms laws of your state? Obviously not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Arizona

Looks like I can't buy a machine gun, a bazooka, a sawed-off shotgun without some paperwork. Can't carry nunchaku either...

Prohibited areas
Establishments which are licensed to sell alcohol for consumption on the premises. However, this does not apply to:
The licensee or an employee of the licensee acting with the permission of the licensee to be in possession of a firearm while on the licensed premises.
A person who is on the premises for a limited time to seek emergency aid, if such person does not buy, receive, consume, or possess alcohol while there.
Hotel or motel guest room accommodations.
The exhibition or display of a firearm in conjunction with a meeting, show, class or similar event.
A person with a concealed carry permit who carries a concealed handgun, provided that there is no notice posted forbidding such, and provided that the concealed carry permit holder consumes no alcohol while on the premises.
Peace officers or members of a sheriff's volunteer posse while on duty who have received firearms training that is approved by the Arizona peace officer standards and training board.

So no, you can't carry your favorite weapon into a bar and have a drink unless you are fine with breaking the law.

[jimmy the one]

17. air guns & bbs in UK

clames: I don't know where you are starting from but gun crimes in the UK continued an upward trend at least through 2006 where they dipped a little the trend has virtually flatlined since.

You should rather phrase it 'air gun & bb gun crime' rose thru those times, some kind of air/bb/gun fad, which contributed very little to serious injury in the UK. Air gun & bb gun crime comprise about half of UK's 'notifiable offenses' (~indictments or complaints) for total guncrime.
The state of florida alone had as much total guncrime as UK (recent year), & UK has two & a half times more people. And florida's airgun & bb guncrime does not comprise half it's total, likely a small fraction.
Medical costs to treat gunshot injury in the US are approx 70 times more than in the UK.

2010/11 UK incidences of fatal shootings: 55
US incidences of fatal shootings: (approx) 9892
You are thus 35x more likely to be shot dead in the US than in the UK.

In the United Kingdom, annual firearm homicides total
2010: 27 2009: 18 2008: 32 2007: 22 2006: 51 2005: 41
2004: 52 2003: 41 2002: 31 2001: 41 1999: 45 1998: 33

In the United Kingdom, annual handgun homicides total
2008: 4 2007: 2 2006: 3 2005: 3 2004: 2 2003: 3 2001: 1

In the United Kingdom, annual firearm suicides total
2010: 109 2009: 101 2008: 120 2007: 100 2006: 130 2005: 107 2004: 115

In the United Kingdom, annual handgun suicides total
2010: 1 2008: 4 2007: 1 2006: 2 2005: 1 2003: 5 2002: 4 2001: 1

In the United Kingdom, annual unintentional shooting deaths total
2010: 8 2009: 11 2008: 5 2007: 3 2006: 5 2005: 3 2004: 4 2003: 4
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-kingdom

[Clames]

18. I was referencing stats that focused on firearm crimes NOT including air gun.

You almost had a point. So close...

[Nasty Jack]

19. Sorry, your facts are wrong

Wrong on all points! Especially Arizona law. Just recently someone was stopped only because the bar refused to allow weapons, otherwise he would have been admitted.

Don't know where your facts come from but they aren't right

[Clames]

20. My facts come from the law itself.

Pretty fucking easy to read and in plain English too. You are allowed to ccw into a bar in AZ if the bar allows but you are not allowed to drink. Plain. Simple. English. You. Can. Google.

[Nasty Jack]

21. You're a dreamer

if you think someone walks into a bar with a concealed weapon for anything other than a drink. That's what concealed means, you can't see it, like it's not there when the guy orders a drink and the bartender doesn't see the firearm. You must be from another planet.

By the way, your crudity belies the quality of your research.

[Clames]

23. I'm a realist.

Fact is, there are many who ccw to a bar and never drink one beer. I know these folks, you don't have a clue. Another anti-gun psychic who "knows" every ccw is his vicinity and what they are doing... You taking lessons from Hoyt? Crudity of my research? That's rich coming from someone who doesn't even know the laws of his own state. Sad when there are links right in front of your face.

[Nasty Jack]

24. I know the laws

I just know human nature, which apparently is out of your realm.

[spin]

22. "Bubba" is a loaded word ...

It can be an term of endearment or an insult. It's a lot like the word "cracker."

I often call my son-in-law a Florida Cracker. He was born in Florida and descended from a long line of Floridians and has actually herded cattle while on a horse and using a bull whip. (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_cracker)

But a snowbird from Ohio who is driving on I-75 like most other people from Ohio (poorly) might be irritated at my son-in-law and flip him the bird when my son-in-law honks his horn to politely suggest that the snowbird stop hogging the high speed lane and move over. I should note that "snowbird" is another word that can have good and bad context. My son-in-law calls me a permanent snowbird since I moved from Ohio to Florida back in 1969.

The point of my post is a suggestion to all who wish strong gun control. If you insult gun owners, you will have far less chance of ever seeing any significant improvement to our existing gun laws.

Suspose a supporter of the AWB walked up to some shooters at a gun range and said, "You all are simply a bunch of white working-class people. You all are uneducated and you all hang out with each other. Since I am well educated and far more intelligent than you ever will be, I support the new Assault Weapons Ban and you should too because criminals and insane people use them to kill others."

Do you think that he would convince any of these shooters that he was right? There's an good chance that he might find he was talking with a bunch of guys in jeans or cargo pants many who had college degrees and were doctors, lawyers, business owners or electronics engineers. Firearms and ammo are not cheap and it's hard for a person who has little education and only holds a low paying job to shoot on a regular basis or even to have the disposable income to buy an assault weapon such as an Ar-15.

Of course gun rights supporters use a lost of derogatory terms to describe gun control advocates. They would at the least infuriate you.

My point is that if we ever want to make headway on this debate, both sides need to start showing a little respect and courtesy toward the other.

But you can insult me if you wish. I have a very thick skin and this is the internet. That's why I was "magnanimous" toward the other poster. I really didn't intend to take a "cheap shot" at him and wished to make this clear.

I, and many other gun owners, would actually like to see some real improvements to our existing gun laws. However, many of us feel the proposed AWB is merely a "feel good" law that would do little or nothing and therefore is a worthless waste of valuable time. Calling us names will do little to change this view.

[jimmy the one]

25. UK real guncrime

Background:
1 clames: I don't know where you are starting from but gun crimes in the UK continued an upward trend at least through 2006 where they dipped a little the trend has virtually flatlined since.
2 jimmy: You should rather phrase it 'air gun & bb gun crime' rose thru those times, some kind of air/bb/gun fad, which contributed very little to serious injury in the UK. Air gun & bb gun crime comprise about half of UK's 'notifiable offenses'
3 Clames I was referencing stats that focused on firearm crimes NOT including air gun.

wiki: in 2012 the Home Office reported that, "in 2010/11, firearms were involved in 11,227 recorded offences in England and Wales, the seventh consecutive annual fall". Firearms statistics in England and Wales include airguns and imitation guns, which make up a high proportion of these recorded offences (~65%).

wiki: While the number of crimes involving firearms in England and Wales increased from 13,874 in 1998/99 to 24,070 in 2002/03, they remained relatively static at 24,094 in 2003/04, and fell to 21,521 in 2005/06. The latter includes 3,275 crimes involving imitation firearms and 10,437 involving air weapons, compared to 566 and 8,665 respectively in 1998/99.

1998 - 13,874 total guncrime, less (566 + 8665 air/fake) = 4643 realguncrime
2005 - 21,521 total guncrime, less (3275 + 10437 air/fake) = 7809 realguncrime
2011:- 11,227 total guncrime, air/fake % n/a, but about 65%, so ~ 4,000 realguncrime

So you appear to be both right & wrong. Realguncrime did increase from 1998 to 2006 as you said, about 9% per year, as well as did airgun/imitation guncrime. You were wrong that realguncrime flatlined, since they've fallen below 1998 totals.
fake/airguncrime was 66.5% of total guncrime n 1998/99
fake/airguncrime was 63.71% of total guncrime in 2005/06

Only those "firearms" positively identified as being imitations or air weapons (e.g., by being recovered by the police or by being fired) are classed as such, so the actual numbers are likely significantly higher. In 2005/06, 8,978 of the total of 21,521 firearms crimes (42%) were for criminal damage.

In other words, 'realguncrime' in UK includes property damage (shooting signs, streetlamps), & is not just violent guncrime.

clames: You almost had a point. So close...

You almost had a point too, so close, if only you hadn't said 'flatlined since 2006'. You do get half a point, being part right. Mine was moreso about the high proportion of airgun & pseudo gun(bb) crime, which really accounts for most of UK's 'guncrime', tho my wording was not concise.
UK has two crime reporting systems, BCS & Notifiable Reported Offences; BCS is a crime survey which includes unreported crimes, & I believe that showed crime going down for several years where for same years the reported offences had crime going up (likely early 2000s).