Germany initiates gun registry, to barely a peep

[jpak]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/germany-initiates-new-gun-registry/2013/01/19/86bb29f2-60da-11e2-b05a-605528f6b712_story.html

BERLIN — Imagine a vast registry that details every legal gun owner in the country, along with information about all of their firearms.

Now imagine the gun lobby not making a fuss about it.

That’s what has happened in Germany, where a new gun database went into service at the beginning of the year.

Until recently, some records were kept on index cards across what used to be 551 separate local registries. Now, law enforcement officials can sit down at their computers and scroll through lists of owners and their guns in seconds.

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but...but...but...Hitler etc. woo woo

yup

[gejohnston]

1. it simply automated an existing registry

and centralized it at the federal level instead of the state level to comply with an EU treaty. Will it do anything to keep Germans safer or assist Polizi in solving crimes? No. There is still an estimated 4-6 unregistered guns for every registered one. Most of them are otherwise law abiding Germans that never bothered to comply.

[Eleanors38]

2. "We're used to it."

Do you fish from a "dark house?" Wish we had some water to fish in here.

[xxqqqzme]

3. As Bill Maher pointed out

last night, while all our other Constitutional protections are being quietly stripped away, the wing nuts are screaming about this relative inconsequential one.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

4. oh yeah, the Libertarian Bill Maher who is usually hated around here. that Bill Maher -

I bet you a dime to a doughnut that Bill Maher owns gun-s-. yes, I mean plural.

[xxqqqzme]

7. Actually, last night he said he owned

A gun. Keeps it locked up. He said he bought it because he fears all the gun nuts.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

9. well, duh.

derp. derp. derpity. derp.

[samsingh]

5. kick

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

6. Yeah, but Germany has "Schutzenfest"

imagine the gun control groups not making a fuss about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%BCtzenfest

[holdencaufield]

13. Is it scheduled for the same week as Oktoberfest?

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

14. Oktoberfest is more dangerous, with high-capacity

waitresses.

[holdencaufield]

15. Demand Capacity Limits!

[rl6214]

8. But, but, but

They are idiots for allowing it ti happen and just following along lke good little sheeple.

[hack89]

10. They don't care because most of them ignore registration laws

That might also help officials keep better tabs on illegal weapons, which many groups estimate as far outnumbering legal ones, at upward of 20 million.

[DWC]

11. The same thing happened

in Germany about 75 years ago.

What do you think about the results of that one?

If you don't learn from history, it will repeat itself.

Semper Fi,

[DWC]

12. 1938 German Weapons Act

was a vast registry that detailed every legal gun owner in the country, along with information about all of their firearms.

And no one made a fuss about it.

Seriously, how did that work out for you?

Yup Yup

[jimmy the one]

16. nazi gun control MYTH - waffen gesetz ist nicht wahr

DWC: 1938 German Weapons Act was a vast registry that detailed every legal gun owner in the country, along with information about all of their firearms.

True to that extent, but this was just a continuance of what was already in effect since 1928, under the weimar republic. Oh, and btw, crime was rare in nazi germany under hitler, except when committed by the brownshirts vs. mainly communists.
Hitler actually loosened gun laws for aryan germans comprising about 80 million germans. Jewish comprised about 400,000 living in germany in january 1939 to even be affected by restrictions on jewish due the nuremburg laws, only about half of which were men competent in guns, & most would not risk their families safety from fear of nazi reprisals, to have a gun, reg'd or not.

wiki explains it well: In 1928, the German govt enacted the Law on Firearms and Ammunition. This law relaxed gun restrictions and put into effect a strict firearm licensing scheme. Under this scheme, Germans could possess firearms, but they were required to have separate permits to do the following: own or sell firearms, carry firearms (including handguns), manufacture firearms, and professionally deal in firearms and ammunition. This law explicitly revoked the {post wwI} 1919 Regulations on Weapons Ownership, which had banned all firearms possession.
The 1938 German Weapons Act.. superseded the 1928 law. As under the 1928 law, citizens were required to have a permit to carry a firearm and a separate permit to acquire a firearm. Furthermore, the law restricted ownership of firearms to "...persons whose trustworthiness is not in question and who can show a need for a (gun) permit."

But under the new 1938 law: 1 Gun restriction laws applied only to handguns, not to long guns or ammunition. 2 The 1938 revisions completely deregulated the acquisition and transfer of rifles and shotguns, as was the possession of ammunition."
3 The legal age at which guns could be purchased was lowered from 20 to 18.
4 Permits were valid for three years, rather than one year.
5 The groups of people who were exempt from the acquisition permit requirement expanded. Holders of annual hunting permits, govt workers, Nazi members were no longer subject to gun ownership restrictions.
6 Jews were forbidden from the manufacturing or dealing of firearms and ammunition.
7 Under both the 1928 and 1938 acts, gun manufacturers and dealers were required to maintain records with information about who purchased guns and the guns' serial numbers. These records to be delivered to a police authority for inspection at the end of each year.

On November 11, 1938, the Minister of the Interior, Wilhelm Frick, promulgated Regulations Against Jews' Possession of Weapons.. which only applied to newly conquered Austria and Sudetenland, effectively deprived all Jews living in those locations of the right to possess firearms or other weapons.

[holdencaufield]

17. Correction ...

"6 Jews were forbidden from the manufacturing or dealing of firearms and ammunition. "

The actually text of the 1939 law forbids Jews from OWNING any firearms or ammunition. This law was passed just days after Kristalnacht when the Nazis finally tipped their hand on precisely how they would be dealing with Jews from then on.

"Regulations Against Jews' Possession of Weapons.. which only applied to newly conquered Austria and Sudetenland"

Also, incorrect, the text of the law forbade Jews in GERMANY AND ALL GERMAN POSSESSIONS, which at that time included Austria and the Sudetenland but was soon to encompass most of Europe. So, a Jewish population of nearly several million was ultimately disarmed.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make concerning Hitler, the Jews and gun control, but it is, to put it mildly, disingenuous to misrepresent the facts of the Holocaust.

It is important to remember that even if there were only 400,000 Jews living in Germany in 1938, less than 10% of that disarmed minority survived until Germany surrendered in 1945.

[jimmy the one]

18. waffengesetz in 1939 germany

6 Jews were forbidden from the manufacturing or dealing of firearms and ammunition. "
holden: The actually text of the 1939 -- {1938??} -- law forbids Jews from OWNING any firearms or ammunition. This law was passed just days after Kristalnacht when the Nazis finally tipped their hand on precisely how they would be dealing with Jews from then on.

I am unclear how & when the law was applied; I thought jewish were proscribed from firearms possession by the nuremburg laws of about 1935, which restricted their civil rights.

"Regulations Against Jews' Possession of Weapons.. which only applied to newly conquered Austria and Sudetenland"
holden caufield: Also, incorrect, the text of the law forbade Jews in GERMANY AND ALL GERMAN POSSESSIONS, which at that time included Austria and the Sudetenland but was soon to encompass most of Europe. So, a Jewish population of nearly several million was ultimately disarmed.

Jewish prior to 1939 could leave germany (indeed were encouraged to do so), could relocate to poland & purchase firearms, or italy or france & purchase firearms (mussolini was then sympathetic to jewish, & the french/italy border above nice was considered a safe haven for jewish). Jewish could have left germany & purchased firearms prior to barbarossa (but not in russia of course).

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make concerning Hitler, the Jews and gun control, but it is, to put it mildly, disingenuous to misrepresent the facts of the Holocaust.

Where did I misrepresent any holocaust facts? I am speaking 'pre holocaust'... you give a differing opinion of what the sources I cited do, & you cite no links nor source. Pls cite your reputable source that jewish were totally disarmed in germany in 1939. I suspect some tacit rule that made this de facto in germany - understood by nazis, but evidently it wasn't the waffengesetz of 1938. Or was it?

It is important to remember that even if there were only 400,000 Jews living in Germany in 1938, less than 10% of that disarmed minority survived until Germany surrendered in 1945.

Indeed there were scant jewish living in germany by wars end. But a few thousands of armed jewish in early 1939 could not have altered nazi war machine in any significant manner, just brought about reprisals onto entire jewish families sooner, with reprisals like at lidice czecho (sp). Most jewish fathers would gladly surrender their pistols to a nazi platoon to protect his family, even on the ruse promise that a train ride would take them to a better place.

[DWC]

19. wiki explains it well ?

How about wiki explaining the more than 11,000,000 defenseless civilian men, women, and children who was murdered by the Socialist Government after they had been disarmed by the Socialist Government.

Anyone who holds that these atrocities are a "myth" is either a deceitful liar, an utter fool. or both.

A wise old man said "Learn from history or it will repeat itself."

Semper Fi,

[jimmy the one]

20. Myth of Nazi Gun Control, accd'g to Guncite

DCW: How about wiki explaining the more than 11,000,000 defenseless civilian men, women, and children who was murdered by the Socialist Government after they had been disarmed by the Socialist Government.

uh oh, gonna have problems with this one. Socialist Govt? and what or which socialist govt would that be? stalin was communist, far left of socialism, is that the govt you speak of? you couldn't possibly mean england or france. Which could it be, which could it be? Which socialist govt do you refer to?

Anyone who holds that these atrocities are a "myth" is either a deceitful liar, an utter fool. or both. A wise old man said "Learn from history or it will repeat itself."

Who held that there weren't millions of jewish killed in the holocaust by hitler or stalin? .. if you insist in pursuing 'an argument to nowhere', I'll be happy to oblige, your naivete' might, as per your wise man's advice, help you learn something, for right now I think 'weimar republic' would stump you.
First, let me source a progun website, GunCite, which isn't as hardline as nra or goa. I suspect holden has read it before, it's been around for years:

Guncite {utter fool or deceitful liar, dwc?}: The Myth of Nazi Gun Control By N. A. Brown ... supposing the existance of an armed resistance also requires the acceptance that the German people would have rallied to the rebellion. This argument requires a total suspension of disbelief given everything we know about 1930s Germany.

.. A commonly heard argument against gun control is that the Nazis used it in their ascent to and maintenance of power. A corollary argument is sometimes made that had the Jews (and presumably the other targeted groups) been armed, they could have fought off Nazi tyranny. This tract seeks to counter these misassumptions about Nazi gun control.

Obviously, the Nazis did not need gun control to attain power as they already (in 1938) possessed supreme and unlimited power in Germany. .. Secondary considerations that arise are that gun ownership was not that widespread to begin with, and, even imagining such ubiquity the German people, Jews in particular, were not predisposed to violent resistance to their govt.

The Third Reich did not need gun control (in 1938 or at any time thereafter) to maintain their power. The success of Nazi programs (restoring the economy, dispelling socio-political chaos) and the misappropriation of justice by the apparatus of terror (Gestapo) assured the compliance of the German people. Arguing otherwise assumes a resistance to Nazi rule that did not exist.
Further, supposing the existance of an armed resistance also requires the acceptance that the German people would have rallied to the rebellion. This argument requires a total suspension of disbelief given everything we know about 1930s Germany.

A more farfetched question is the hypothetical proposition of armed Jewish resistance. First, they were not commonly armed even prior to the 1928 Law. Second, Jews had seen pogroms before and had survived them, though not without suffering. They would expect that this one would, as had the past ones, eventually subside and permit a return to normalcy. Many considered themselves "patriotic Germans" for their service in the first World War. These simply were not people prepared to stage violent resistance.
.. it hardly seems conceivable that armed resistance by Jews (or any other target group) would have led to any weakening of Nazi rule, let alone a full scale popular rebellion; on the contrary, it seems more likely it would have strengthened the support the Nazis already had. Their foul lies about Jewish perfidy would have been given a grain of substance. To project backward and speculate thus is to fail to learn the lesson history has so painfully provided.

The simple conclusion is that there are no lessons about the efficacy of gun control to be learned from the Germany of the first half of this century. It is all too easy to forget the seductive allure that fascism presented to all the West, bogged down in economic and social morass. What must be remembered is that the Nazis were master manipulators of popular emotion and sentiment, and were disdainful of people thinking for themselves. There is the danger to which we should pay great heed. Not fanciful stories about Nazi's seizing guns. http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcnazimyth.html