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virginia mountainman

(5,046 posts)
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 06:42 PM Jan 2013

Welcome to the age of the printed magazine....

Not to mention very cheap to replicate, over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over.....

How do you propose to control this? BTW the rifle, is totally not effected by any Assault weapon ban.....It is a class III, and by definition, a TRUE assault rifle, and not one of the "so called" assault rifles that people want to ban.



Americans are a funny bunch...If they want it, they WILL have it. I know this well, as my kin used to be moonshiners, and we got away with it for generations.
72 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Welcome to the age of the printed magazine.... (Original Post) virginia mountainman Jan 2013 OP
Things are quite different today Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #1
So you propose using Hellfire missiles, virginia mountainman Jan 2013 #3
I propose nothing Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #6
Your ignorance of Federal laws is astounding. Clames Jan 2013 #18
Dude, drones have already been used to kill American citizens Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #31
In other countries. Clames Jan 2013 #34
Once the precedent is established that we can kill Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #36
If our govt is that evil Elmergantry Jan 2013 #45
I noted that irony as well. nt Eleanors38 Jan 2013 #47
You miss the point Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #58
Why is it bullshit? Elmergantry Jan 2013 #59
It is BS because the time to stop tyranny Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #60
Tyranny is never permament Elmergantry Jan 2013 #61
That was then, this is now Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #62
Same could be said for the Soviet Union Elmergantry Jan 2013 #64
The Soviets did not have Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #65
Well I already told you why we put up with it. Elmergantry Jan 2013 #66
Pacifism usually does not entail Riftaxe Jan 2013 #67
Again it takes deliberate misreading of what i wrote Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #68
several million dollar missile? gejohnston Jan 2013 #7
Sorry, my mistake Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #8
I worked on... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #15
That is not the point. Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #33
Banks and the OWS crackdown discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #37
They are different today chicoguy Jan 2013 #9
Once upon a time Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #14
Really??? discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #10
I am simply pointing out that this is the future Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #13
Name a similar case. n/t discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #16
Here you go Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #30
Close but... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #32
Hmmm Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #35
Please don't misunderstand. discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #40
Definitely on those points we Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #43
On some points... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #46
Umm, Waco anyone? TxRider Jan 2013 #69
regarding... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #70
there... raidert05 Jan 2013 #21
Keep talking. You just make gun advocates look worse and worse. MotherPetrie Jan 2013 #2
How am i making them look bad.. virginia mountainman Jan 2013 #5
Actually, if you look at the files, they did a bang up job on them!! virginia mountainman Jan 2013 #11
Actually, most magazines now have a digital edition, and Newsweek hedgehog Jan 2013 #4
I read magpul had a 1 million magazines backorder. ileus Jan 2013 #12
what's the current cost for a 3d printer capable of making a 30 rd mag? frylock Jan 2013 #17
I belive around 2,000 bucks.. virginia mountainman Jan 2013 #19
Ummm...two things. Arctic Dave Jan 2013 #20
Interesting side note ... holdencaufield Jan 2013 #22
I actually have a 5 round AK type magazine.. virginia mountainman Jan 2013 #23
My Ruger GSR is for Deer holdencaufield Jan 2013 #27
How do.. Puha Ekapi Jan 2013 #44
Love it ... holdencaufield Jan 2013 #49
Yeah, Puha Ekapi Jan 2013 #50
There is a reason they only offer a single configuration ... holdencaufield Jan 2013 #51
I am well familiar Puha Ekapi Jan 2013 #53
How about mandatory prison term for, say 10 years for possession per; 20 years jmg257 Jan 2013 #24
Ok that price went up to $200 A peice...NT virginia mountainman Jan 2013 #25
See - it's working already! jmg257 Jan 2013 #26
How do you prove when the mag was made. Travis_0004 Jan 2013 #28
No date needed, all hi-cap mags are contraband... jmg257 Jan 2013 #29
Oh, that'll end well. Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #38
Who said the police get special treatment? Not me. jmg257 Jan 2013 #39
I'm just pointing out that there will be millions who will break such a law. Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #41
Good - keep them under cover. Bury them in the back yard. jmg257 Jan 2013 #42
I believe Obama is opposed to stiff mandatories for illegal weapons possession. Eleanors38 Jan 2013 #48
Irony ... holdencaufield Jan 2013 #52
Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. nt jmg257 Jan 2013 #54
Very right-wing thing to say holdencaufield Jan 2013 #55
Then u should feel right at home. Gun Control...its good for what ails ya... jmg257 Jan 2013 #56
LOL why not, they don't enforce the laws anyway! virginia mountainman Jan 2013 #63
Well, he's got good screen presence. nt rrneck Jan 2013 #57
Just because it's possible doesn't mean it should be legal Hugabear Jan 2013 #71
violating NFA by making or having an illegal machine gun gejohnston Jan 2013 #72
 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
1. Things are quite different today
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 06:44 PM
Jan 2013

than back then.

Today, if the "revenooers" want to got after the "moonshiners" it will be done with a Predator drone, not by individual agents.

How will any kind of assault rifle stop a Hellfire missile?

virginia mountainman

(5,046 posts)
3. So you propose using Hellfire missiles,
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 06:50 PM
Jan 2013

On peaceful citizens, doing nothing more than making a drink without paying a tax on it? How about using a hellfire on someone who hires a neighbor to mow their lawn, and pays them under the table for doing it too? It's the same thing....

Amazing what it says about your view on fellow citizens.

 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
6. I propose nothing
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 06:54 PM
Jan 2013

I am a pacifist, I am simply telling you how things will go down in the future.

It takes some creative misreading of what I wrote to get an endorsement of government murder.

 

Clames

(2,038 posts)
18. Your ignorance of Federal laws is astounding.
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 07:44 PM
Jan 2013

Hellfire missiles? Really? Amazing how little some know about the laws that govern this country and its military. Inexcusable too since it is all so easily researched by anyone with an internet connection.

 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
31. Dude, drones have already been used to kill American citizens
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 10:34 AM
Jan 2013

in other countries.

The line is now crossed. Since the precedent has been established, sooner or later the precedent will be used to kill people in this country.

Federal laws says torture is illegal, yet we have tortured people. Federal law says indefinite detention without trial is illegal, yet Guantanamo is still open.

Don't lecture me about the law, since the law is meaningless. And please spare me the "legalistic" contortions used to render these actions "legal".

The history books of the last 30 years are full of the military, the DEA and the CIA routinely breaking the law without consequence.

 

Clames

(2,038 posts)
34. In other countries.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 10:56 AM
Jan 2013

Vastly different circumstances that what you predict. Funny how some here say the it's the gun owners that are paranoid yet here we have someone convinced of drone missile strikes against citizens on our own soil....

 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
36. Once the precedent is established that we can kill
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 11:05 AM
Jan 2013

"terrorists" (even citizens) who pose a "threat" to "national security", why should we stop at the border? After all "terrorists" operate inside the U.S., so at some point, someone is going to use a drone to "attack" targets on U.S. soil.

BTW, the justification offered by the government for being allowed to kill people without a trial, even American citizens, was that "decisions about whom to kill in an armed conflict are “political questions” not fit for judicial review."

So far, the courts have agreed with this view.

Finally, warrantless wiretapping of American citizens is illegal, yet it has been done, is probably still being done, and the crimes were "legalized" by the Obama Justice Department.

Also, I have not seen a single prosecution of a government official for torture, which last I looked, was a war crime.

 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
58. You miss the point
Wed Jan 16, 2013, 10:04 AM
Jan 2013

I am not letting "them disarm" anyone. Simply pointing out that the major argument made by gun proponents, defense against tyranny, is bullshit. Tyranny came packaged in fear, and we fell all over ourselves building a police state.

Hell, even the NRA wants a bigger police state. They want a police force in every school in America

The USG has abrogated 8 of the 10 rights in the Bill of Rights, and did so while letting everyone have all the guns they could eat. The government is not going to come take your guns away, and never will. Why should it stir up a docile population?

It might manage to pass a law here and there to close some of the more egregious loopholes, but the slaughter will continue, since selling guns is highly profitable.

We as a society have VOLUNTARILY surrendered our rights and established a de facto police state, all while maintaining the largest civilian arsenal in the world.

It is a dictator's dream country (although we have no dictator, just an Oligarchy to rule us).

 

Elmergantry

(884 posts)
59. Why is it bullshit?
Wed Jan 16, 2013, 11:23 AM
Jan 2013

It may come to the point where the population will no longer be "docile" in the face of this tyranny you speak of, and if and when it comes, it may take arms to put an end to it if the ballot does not work.

You claimed it will only be a matter of time before drones start targeting US citizens here. If that happens, I would hope the citizenry has an armed response for it.
 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
60. It is BS because the time to stop tyranny
Wed Jan 16, 2013, 04:21 PM
Jan 2013

has come and gone. When the avalanche has started it is too late for the pebbles to vote.

Police states seldom occur overnight, they occur gradually, with liberties being infringed just a little and the rulers explaining why there is nothing to be worried about. "You still have all your rights, except these narrow exceptions". The exceptions get broader, and broader until the right is a finally just a legalistic fiction.

Here is the reality of today:

1) We torture people. We have lots of nice justifications for it (all false) and we refuse to call it torture (it's called "enhanced interrogation&quot , but to the person subject to it, it is torture.

2) We imprison people without charge or trial. It's called Guantanamo.

3) We spy on our own people, and do so to protect people against "terrorism".

4) We seize people's property and call it "eminent domain" or the "war on drugs.

5) We compel people to incriminate themselves (see torture).

6) When we do try people, we do so based on secret evidence or witnesses who may not be cross-examined (to protect "national security assets).

7) We have arrested, tried and convicted people for assembling peacefully and petitioning government for redress of grievances (see the Occupy Movement crackdown), we have placed people on "no fly" lists for criticizing government, and we have certainly persecuted people for their religion (ask any Muslim in this country).

8) We routinely subject people to searches that, absent the "national security" justification, would constitute aggravated sexual assault. Such assaults have also been perpetrated on children.

9) We have a Supreme Court that has declared that factual innocence is not a reason to overturn a death penalty conviction (see Herrera v. Collins, 1993)

10) There are two different justice systems in the country, one for the rich, and one for everyone else.

By every reasonable definition of the term, we are a "police state". And yet, despite having the most heavily armed civilian population, there has been no "armed" rebellion against "tyranny". We have meekly swallowed the Patriot Act and law after law, decision after decision, which stripped our liberties away layer by layer.

Now we have a government with massive surveillance power and the ability to put down ANY insurrection, no matter how heavily armed, thanks to drones.

Now many of us warned folks about this over the last three decades, but we were ignored and/or called crazy.

The time for for rebellion, both peaceful or armed was any time before the Patriot Act. Not only did we accept the it as law, we renewed it several years later, and will probably keep on renewing it in the future.

Now the president claims (and exercises) the power to write your name on a list, declare you a danger to national security, and order your assassination. When I point his fact out, many people get pissed and spout all sorts of apologia to excuse/justify/deny that this is the case.

But the President writes, and people die.

Once the government has reached this point, there is no going back.

 

Elmergantry

(884 posts)
61. Tyranny is never permament
Wed Jan 16, 2013, 09:32 PM
Jan 2013

it only is if we let it be. People can only take so much crap. Right now the people dont care so much about it, they are satisfied with the bread and circuses. Once the bread and circuses cease, I think that will change.

As a proud American of Ukrainian descent, years ago I expressed the hope that the land of my ancestors would be free from communist tyranny someday. My buddy scoffed and insisted that Ukraine would ALWAYS be a part of the USSR.

I had a good chuckle calling him out on that.

 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
62. That was then, this is now
Thu Jan 17, 2013, 10:44 AM
Jan 2013

Never in history has there been a government with more power than the U.S. Government.

In the past, putting down a rebellion required a lot of troops loyal to your side. These days it requires a handful of teenagers and Predator/Reaper drones. The killing will be done at a distance, which makes it far easier to find people willing to do it.

Right now 90% of the people on this board would disagree with my basic premise that we are a police state, despite the overwhelming evidence.

Deluded people are easy to control. Self-deluded people, even more so.

You are right that nothing lasts forever, but we have willingly, complicitly forged our own chains, and we made them to last.

 

Elmergantry

(884 posts)
64. Same could be said for the Soviet Union
Fri Jan 18, 2013, 09:13 AM
Jan 2013

They had quite the military power as well, and a much more pervasive police state.

Didnt last. All the General Secrataries tanks, guided missiles, and jet fighters couldnt stop the people who were fed up.

I not about to just throw up my hands, hand over my weapons and die.

Im not a sheep




 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
65. The Soviets did not have
Fri Jan 18, 2013, 10:52 AM
Jan 2013

the surveillance technology available today, and they did not have drones which would allow them to shut down any individual/group deemed a "danger to the state" without involving a large contingent of troops.

Also, let me take your point at face value. The Bolshevik Revolution that brought the Soviet state into being occurred in 1918, and fell apart in 1989-1990.

The U.S. police state formally came into being with the passage pf the Patriot Act in 2001. Using the Soviet time table, we will remain a police state until 2071.

I not about to just throw up my hands, hand over my weapons and die.

Where have I suggested or state that people "hand over" their weapons?

You cannot find that statement in anything I have said. My point is that being the most heavily armed civilian populace in the world did not stop "tyranny" from coming to America. It arrived, wrapped in a flag, supported by "gun owners".

No one is going to take your guns away, but you are still living in a police state and should you actually do something to piss off the government, all your guns will not save you.

All I am asking is for gun advocates to please stop using the "anti-tyranny" defense for owning guns. It is null and void. The only possible use for guns these days is for people to delude themselves that they are "safe" from tyranny, to shoot their fellow citizens for whatever reason (justified or not), and to put a bullet in their brain for a quick death should they ever find the government actually after them.

Im not a sheep

If we are not sheep, why do we live in a police state? Why did we allow the Patriot Act to be passed. Why have we allowed torture to be legalized. Why do we allow innocent people to be executed? Why do we submit to invasive searches on a regular basis? Why do we allow the government to wage a "war on drugs" which doesn't work, and makes us the biggest jailer in the Western world?

We ARE sheep. Depressing, I know. But BigPharma has a drugs they sell us for that.

People need to understand that the great political visionaries were not Lennon, or Marx, or Jefferson, or Madison, but Orwell and Huxley.

 

Elmergantry

(884 posts)
66. Well I already told you why we put up with it.
Fri Jan 18, 2013, 07:14 PM
Jan 2013

We have it to good to care - for now. Who would want to miss the Superbowl for a silly protest that wont change anything?

And for those who do care, there is not enough of them (yet), and the political solution has not been completely abandoned.

BTW there are plenty of RWer "gun nuts" who are not happy with the things you mentioned either - but they are keeping their

powder dry. Just go to the Alex Jones type websites and you will find disgust with a lot of what you are saying as

well...granted this is just a subset of the RW; more of a libertarian bent, not your neo-cons.


So I wouldnt abandon all hope.

Riftaxe

(2,693 posts)
67. Pacifism usually does not entail
Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:34 AM
Jan 2013

a call for vicious unfocused killings.

I would buy sociopath, but pacifists? not so much.

 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
68. Again it takes deliberate misreading of what i wrote
Sat Jan 19, 2013, 02:14 PM
Jan 2013

To say i was advocating murder. Given your decision to insult me with malicious accusation of being a sociopath, you are deliberaty misreading my words to be obnoxious.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
7. several million dollar missile?
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 06:54 PM
Jan 2013

Don't think so. IIRC, you are thinking of a Reaper drone, which are armed. Predators are unarmed reconnaissance.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/predator-uav/

 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
8. Sorry, my mistake
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 06:57 PM
Jan 2013

Reaper drone.

The missiles, however are $68K a pop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-114_Hellfire

And I am sure once we start deploying these things en mass domestically, cheaper munitions will be made available.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,482 posts)
15. I worked on...
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 07:14 PM
Jan 2013

...the Warrior/Extended-Range Multi-Purpose project as a subcontractor to a subcontractor of General Atomics. The Warrior (MQ-1C) now called Grey Eagle is an evolution of the earlier Predator platform. It does have 4 missile/bomb stations and can be armed with 4 Hellfire Missiles or 8 Stingers or 4 bombs.

Don't you think $68k is overkill for the crime of cheating the government out of maybe $6-10k worth of tax money?

 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
33. That is not the point.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 10:42 AM
Jan 2013

The point is "making an example" of people, to "deter" future misdeeds, to force compliance. The point about destroying illicit stockpiles/manufacturing of alcohol/marijuana is not about the loss of tax revenue, but the loss of corporate profits.

ANYTHING that interferes with corporate profit will be stopped.

People keep blowing this off as a "conspiracy theory", but the Guardian newspaper has done a pretty damn good job documenting the reality. For example, who was behind the massive crackdown on the Occupy Movement?

Banks.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy

The Partnership for Civil Justice Fund, in a groundbreaking scoop that should once more shame major US media outlets (why are nonprofits now some of the only entities in America left breaking major civil liberties news?), filed this request. The document – reproduced here in an easily searchable format – shows a terrifying network of coordinated DHS, FBI, police, regional fusion center, and private-sector activity so completely merged into one another that the monstrous whole is, in fact, one entity: in some cases, bearing a single name, the Domestic Security Alliance Council. And it reveals this merged entity to have one centrally planned, locally executed mission. The documents, in short, show the cops and DHS working for and with banks to target, arrest, and politically disable peaceful American citizens.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,482 posts)
37. Banks and the OWS crackdown
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 11:22 AM
Jan 2013

It's not hard to see the direct connection there. Look at the use of on-duty cops as bank guards paid for by the banks through the NYPD.

 

chicoguy

(23 posts)
9. They are different today
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 06:57 PM
Jan 2013

and I have seen several articles lately regarding the use of UAV's domestically. I doubt there will be any hellfires on them for a while though.

To this point, I don't think sending armed predator drones out to take out "moonshiners" is gonna be politically tenable, in fact I think most Americans would be willing to take up arms if such a scenario came to pass. There will not be an insurrection in this country unless they do things like this, and if there is an insurrection, the predator drones will not do much good.

As to the feasibility of using a 3D printer to create restricted items, that is inevitable and anyone with the know how will be more than able to do it.

 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
14. Once upon a time
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 07:10 PM
Jan 2013

(about 15 years ago) torture wasn't "politically tenable". Nor was warrantless wiretaps, or the suspension of Habeus.

But today, it all has moved to the mainstream. So armed predator drones operating domestically will become "tenable" soon enough.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,482 posts)
10. Really???
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 06:59 PM
Jan 2013

A Hellfire (II) missile being the type commonly used on the Predator and Reaper platforms are fragmentation/incendiary munitions. Using these to assault a collection of flammable alcohol would result in seriously bad end for those on the receiving end. It would also likely result in a wrongful death lawsuit the scope of which would be no less than epic. Such a suit, given the munition used and activities targeted would result in what the attorneys term a "slam-dunk".

Are you kidding me? An premeditated government directed act which predictably would result in one or more US citizens being burned alive is so beyond what passes today for paranoid conspiracy thinking.

Do yourself a favor and self-delete.

 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
13. I am simply pointing out that this is the future
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 07:06 PM
Jan 2013

And if you think your family will be able to "sue" the government for killing you better start reading about similar cases now wending through the courts.

 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
30. Here you go
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 10:28 AM
Jan 2013
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/19/world/middleeast/us-officials-sued-over-citizens-killed-in-yemen.html?_r=0

Relatives of three American citizens killed in drone strikes in Yemen last year filed a wrongful-death lawsuit against four senior national security officials on Wednesday. The suit, in the Federal District Court here, opened a new chapter in the legal wrangling over the Obama administration’s use of drones in pursuit of terrorism suspects away from traditional “hot” battlefields like Afghanistan.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,482 posts)
32. Close but...
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 10:41 AM
Jan 2013

Last edited Tue Jan 15, 2013, 11:42 AM - Edit history (1)

...IMHO, no cigar. Without offering comment on the legitimacy of these strikes (on which I have some serious reservations), I would say that they differ materially from the hypothetical case, in two ways: 1) it seems that those killed were collateral damage as opposed to direct targets; 2) these operations took place outside the US.

ETA: http://www.democraticunderground.com/11792191

 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
35. Hmmm
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 10:57 AM
Jan 2013

You are basing the evidence that they were "collateral" damage from what?

The guy's father sued in 2010 to stop the strikes because his son had been placed on a kill list for targeting. He is attacked and killed.

Also, the USG's defense is not that what they did was legal, but that:

The Justice Department, which is likely to provide lawyers for the defendants, may ask a judge to dismiss the case by asserting that the evidence necessary to litigate it would disclose state secrets, or that decisions about whom to kill in an armed conflict are “political questions” not fit for judicial review. The government asserted both arguments in the 2010 case, and the judge who dismissed that lawsuit also cited the “political question” doctrine.

Translation: What we did might be murder, but since the justification involves "political questions" we are exempt from answering in court.

The judge agreed.

As to things happening outside the U.S. making them legal, that is a fine bit of moral justification which makes tons sense to any sociopath with a law degree, but falls flat to the people who see their family members murdered for political reasons (murder for political reasons is pretty much one of the text book definitions of "assassination", which is illegal).

People told me 15 years ago that the U.S. would NEVER torture people. We have tortured people, and it has been declared legal.

People told me 15 years ago that the U.S. would NEVER have another Vietnam. We have had not, one, but TWO of them.

After Watergate people told me that the President was now prohibited by law from assassinating foreign nationals. We have assassinated foreign nationals.

The proof is in the history.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,482 posts)
40. Please don't misunderstand.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 11:35 AM
Jan 2013

I don't accept drone strikes targeting US citizens anywhere as being acceptable. Neither do I believe murder is "legal" as long we do it outside the US. I only point out these differences as being substantial distinctions from the hypothetical situation we discussed.

I suggest that, were the "revenoorers" sufficiently prejudiced against a particular 'shine maker, his hidden still probably explode due to "unsafe design and construction" and that his home may also burn due to a combination of "smoking and unsafe storage methods".

Tell me again how the Waco compound caught fire.

 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
43. Definitely on those points we
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:21 PM
Jan 2013

agree.

The problem as I see it is that lines have been crossed. Now, if we had crossed those lines, then came back and severely punished the people in offices high and low for it, then I would say we are pretty safe.

But we didn't. Instead, we pretty much "legalized" the actions in one fashion or another, or at least simply refused to prosecute, which is effectively the same thing.

Drones are a two way street. They are childishly simple to get hold of, easy to convert even civilian models for lethal use, and very, very cheap. By using them as we have, we have opened the door for terrorists, criminals and lunatics to use them as well. The genie is out of the bottle, and once the weapon is used against us domestically, that will be the justification for our government to use them domestically.

Drones make excellent assassination tools and are VERY hard to defend against. We will rue the day we decided to use them.

TxRider

(2,183 posts)
69. Umm, Waco anyone?
Mon Jan 21, 2013, 12:02 AM
Jan 2013

I would say that is exactly what happened in Waco, there was little other result possible from the actions the government decided to use instead of just walking up in the daylight and knocking on the door.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,482 posts)
70. regarding...
Mon Jan 21, 2013, 01:02 AM
Jan 2013

..."just walking up in the daylight and knocking on the door."

That would leave out any chance of cloak/dagger, call of duty graphics and fake BS heroism not to mention leave all that money budgeted for armament with no justification.



Yeah, that would be just another Waco.


BTW, I know a guy that lived next-door to this ATF guy who who worked the post fire evidence collection task force at Waco and for the right price I can get you a picture of the missing door.



--- not ---

virginia mountainman

(5,046 posts)
5. How am i making them look bad..
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 06:52 PM
Jan 2013

The post is showing how easy it is to make a box with a spring in it..

All it is, is a bit of reality for those that don't understand simple mechanical items.

virginia mountainman

(5,046 posts)
11. Actually, if you look at the files, they did a bang up job on them!!
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 07:01 PM
Jan 2013

Here, you can print some out for your 3D Printer, and see the workmanship first hand, here is a link to the needed files..

http://defcad.org/upload-cad-files/

frylock

(34,825 posts)
17. what's the current cost for a 3d printer capable of making a 30 rd mag?
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 07:25 PM
Jan 2013

what's the ROI for a device that you would use to ILLEGALLY manufacture and sell these magazines?

virginia mountainman

(5,046 posts)
19. I belive around 2,000 bucks..
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 08:08 PM
Jan 2013

Maybe less... If magazines are banned, someone would sell them for $100 a piece... And the plastics used would be pennies, with a dollar for the spring.

Someone could also make a much larger shipment , say to Chicago, or New York and instantly pay for the machine, and supplies, and make a small profit... The 2nd Shipment would be all profit...

We know how effective drug laws are at keeping drugs out, and are we now going to train dogs to smell plastic as well?

Instant black market... remember we are talking about a box, with a spring. Not meth that has allot of complicated chemistry.

 

Arctic Dave

(13,812 posts)
20. Ummm...two things.
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 08:36 PM
Jan 2013

1) Doesn't say how a "Printed" magizine is made and

2) weapons unlike booze or drugs are consummable. So, unless you are going to charge a lot of money per item then you run the risk of long punishments for short gains.

That is what makes bootlegging and drug running profitable is the "returns".

 

holdencaufield

(2,927 posts)
22. Interesting side note ...
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 09:44 PM
Jan 2013

... I recently went to buy a SMALLER polymer mag (5 round) for my Ruger Gunsite Scout to augment the 10 round metal ones I currently have and when the shopkeeper got his breath back after a fit of laughter he informed me that ALL magazines -- big and small -- are on indefinite backorder due to insanely overwhelming sales.

Manufacturing our own magazines at home may become the only viable option.

virginia mountainman

(5,046 posts)
23. I actually have a 5 round AK type magazine..
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 09:58 PM
Jan 2013

The body, and spring had been cut to fit...It did not work well at all, and jammed constantly...I thought it would be useful for bench firing, but it was useless.

 

holdencaufield

(2,927 posts)
27. My Ruger GSR is for Deer
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 10:04 PM
Jan 2013

So, while I love taking a 10 round steel mag to the range -- it looks a bit silly in the bush.

The Ruger poly mags are pretty nice and they can be top loaded -- unlike the steel ones. Unfortunately, Ruger (and everyone else) never anticipated the demand.

Puha Ekapi

(594 posts)
44. How do..
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:45 PM
Jan 2013

you like that Scout rifle? I've been eyeballing one. My only reservations about it are barrel length and caliber. I wish it was offered in 20" and at least a couple of other calibers, like 7mm-08, .243, maybe one of the .224 calibers.

 

holdencaufield

(2,927 posts)
49. Love it ...
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 07:25 PM
Jan 2013

... it is now my favourite rifle to shoot except for my Winchester 1892. It fires very accurate groups and overall it's easy to handle. If you hunt stalking and not sitting you will appreciate the lighter/shorter rifle immediately. The Mauser-style action is very smooth. I deliberately mounted the Leuopold Scout Scope forward of the bolt (mosin nagant style) which is great for maintaining situational awareness and faster target acquisition. As for the caliber, .308, imo, is a great all-round cartridge. It is large enough for elk/deer/pig but won't destroy a fox. It maintains a relatively flat trajectory out to 1,000 metres and is among is easy to procure.

If barrel length is the only issue -- Ruger makes the same rifle in 18" without the flash suppressor for the overseas market. That is the one I have. The added advantage is the barrel is stainless steel versus blued.

Puha Ekapi

(594 posts)
50. Yeah,
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 09:55 PM
Jan 2013

.308 is a great round, but I like 7mm-08 better. I hunt both stalk and stand, and even a 20" barrel isn't cumbersome, and does offer a significant ballistic advantage over a 16". Just wish there were more options in that particular setup. I may go with a Savage scout...it has a 20" barrel and the accu-trigger and is a very accurate platform. Factory only 4 rnd mags are available, but there is an outfit making aftermarket 10 rnd mags for it. The Savage comes stock in only .308 and 7.62x39, but you can order other calibers through the custom shop for very little extra money.

 

holdencaufield

(2,927 posts)
51. There is a reason they only offer a single configuration ...
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 10:14 PM
Jan 2013

... and that reason is Jeff Cooper. Jeff Cooper, founder of Gunsite Institute and author of "Art of the Rifle" back in the '80 presented his concept for the perfect all-round rifle he called the "Scout Rifle" modeled on the M1 Carbine -- not perfect, but adaptable to nearly every situation. He specified, among other things, bolt action, carbine size and .308 caliber. Savage and Steyer have produced a version of Scout Rifles but they never really caught on as well as the GSR and didn't have Gunsite endorsement.

Ruger makes so many other rifles in multiple versions I don't look to see them doing this for the GSR as it would deviate from Jeff Cooper's ideal -- and Jeff Cooper has a kind of cult following among some gun owners.

My opinion, the shorter barrel isn't a problem for the GSR. It is designed to be used in the <300 metre and the GSR barrel is floating. I have shot decent groups at up to 300m perfect for hunting, I wouldn't recommend it for competitive target shooting but it's not made for that.

Puha Ekapi

(594 posts)
53. I am well familiar
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 10:32 PM
Jan 2013

..with Cooper's ideas and his thoughts on the perfect rifle. I just don't agree with some of them is all. For me, the GSR would be PERFECT with a 20" barrel.

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
24. How about mandatory prison term for, say 10 years for possession per; 20 years
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 09:58 PM
Jan 2013

if you are the peron/s making them? 30 years if used in a crime?

$200 bonus check for the person/s signing the complaint that leads to conviction?

 

Travis_0004

(5,417 posts)
28. How do you prove when the mag was made.
Mon Jan 14, 2013, 11:42 PM
Jan 2013

Sure the law will state that any new mags say "law enforcement use only", but somebody making a bootleg mag won't follow this. If you caught somebody in the act of making one, proof would be easy, but once somebody bought one, proving the date it was made is virtually impossible, and under our innocent until proven guilty legal system, once could take the magazine to the range, and not worry about getting in trouble.

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
29. No date needed, all hi-cap mags are contraband...
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:07 AM
Jan 2013

gets rid of the guess work.

You have 1, you do jail time.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
38. Oh, that'll end well.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 11:25 AM
Jan 2013

That couldn't possibly create an unnecessary adversarial relationship between the police and millions of Americans while accomplishing virtually nothing whatsoever...

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
39. Who said the police get special treatment? Not me.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 11:31 AM
Jan 2013

Very possible it will accomplish just what is intended...to remove vast amounts of hi-cap mags from the public, there-by substantially reducing access to them by those who will abuse them. And of course remove from the population the criminals who would insist on using them.

Don't want an adverse relationship with the police over mags? Don't break the law by dealing in contraband, and you won't need to worry about LE.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
41. I'm just pointing out that there will be millions who will break such a law.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 11:40 AM
Jan 2013

Likely tens of millions, in fact. They'll keep their high-capacity mags a bit more under cover* and only use them when there are no prying eyes around, but you can take it to the bank that they won't turn them in or destroy them.


*or maybe not, depending on the willingness of their local police and sheriffs to enforce what would be in many jurisdictions strictly a federal law (a great many states would never pass such a measure). In many parts of the country, local law enforcement would be almost universally opposed to such a law, and they'd look the other way...like, for example, the Portland PD do with individual marijuana possession.

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
42. Good - keep them under cover. Bury them in the back yard.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:01 PM
Jan 2013

Someone wants to risk being a felon and losing everything to have a few extra rounds at their disposable for...just what use I don't know, they can have at it...but it sure seems the notion of becoming a criminal for this point is pretty goofy. Who will protect their and/or provide for their family while they're in jail?

But using a mag ain't like taking a sip of whiskey - the guns tend to make noise - lots of noise.
Lots of people love calling the cops when they hear shots being fired..

You are right - not much to do about local LE who wont be bothered. Just hope they will not have to go up against the mags they turn their backs on....seems more in their interest to remove them.




 

holdencaufield

(2,927 posts)
52. Irony ...
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 10:16 PM
Jan 2013

... how many truly liberal persons would endorse mandatory prison terms for any possession related offence?

I guess we are only for draconian laws against things we hate/fear, right?

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
56. Then u should feel right at home. Gun Control...its good for what ails ya...
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 11:13 PM
Jan 2013

"Right at home"...get it?

Hugabear

(10,340 posts)
71. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it should be legal
Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:39 AM
Jan 2013

Soon it may be possible to "print" your very own fully-automatic machine gun. Voila, no background check, no paperwork, completely bypass all federal and state regulations on fully-automatic weapons.

Just because it would be possible to do this, does that mean it would be legal to do so?

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
72. violating NFA by making or having an illegal machine gun
Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:57 AM
Jan 2013

is a big deal. It would be a very bad idea. Don't buy a STEN someone claimed it was converted to semi auto either, but that's a different story.
Don't need a printer, just know what you are doing and basic tools.
Copies of the STEN were made in bicycle shops in occupied Europe. OK, bad example since it was a rare case of the good guys having illegal guns. Let's go with
The IRA used to make their own Avenger SMGs in garages. The same with Australian biker gangs making STENs and Ownens' SMGs.

If the law banned manufacture, then it would be illegal to make them.

Some homemade guns ranging from zip guns to SMGs
http://improguns.blogspot.com/

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