The "tone argument"

[MadrasT]

Hi, I have been around DU for a while and just started hanging out in this group since DU3.

I am kind of new to feminism... somehow it never seemed important to me for a lot of reasons. Long story, but it has become much more important to me and I am trying to absorb and learn. (It's like some kind of switch flipped in my head and I went "Whoa, wait a minute... this stuff actually matters.&quot

I am enjoying and learning from the "Words" thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/11392273

I have a similar kind of question about dealing with the "tone argument".

How can one effectively respond to someone who is using the "tone argument" as a way to avoid the substance of the complaint?

When I shared this article: http://www.democraticunderground.com/11391081 with men in my community, all I got was the tone argument. As in (and I quote): "I can't even focus on what she said because her tone is so angry, disrespectful, and awful."

It was like they (the men I know who read the article) went into some kind of super-denial "la la la la I can't hear you" zone where they steadfastly refused to even for one second consider ANYTHING the author of the article wrote.

I frequently use cat analogies and metaphors, so I told them when someone is (figuratively) stepping on my tail and it hurts and I yell "OWEEEE, get off my damn tail!!!", the right thing to do is to GET OFF MY TAIL and possibly have a little empathy for stepping on it, and not to say "ask nicely and I'll consider getting off your tail".

I got BLANKSTARE and the general attitude of "I refuse to deal with anyone who expresses herself that disrespectfully," with a clear undercurrent of "I don't actually care what that hateful (b****, c***, whatever) says because she obviously has issues with men and I am not like that so who cares?" <--- This from some men who ARE RATHER LIKE THE MEN DESCRIBED IN THE ARTICLE.

I was thinking, "Seriously? Y'all have a problem with HER attitude? Trying living as a woman for a while and THEN tell me about how frustrated you are with "attitude"!"

Beyond frustrating.

So what do you do when somebody deflects and avoids real issues with the "tone argument"?

???

[boston bean]

1. That is another good one.

That just happened to me yesterday, and I am looking for replies.

But I think the intent is to fluster and aggravate someone, hence make them angry, and then the point is ceded.

it's a tough one for sure.

[justiceischeap]

2. IMO, when anyone dismisses your conversation

by bringing tone into it, what they're really saying is they don't want to listen and getting them to see your point is going to be near impossible, no matter how you couch the conversation.

When someone says, "I refuse to deal with anyone who expresses herself that disrespectfully," they're telling you, one, they don't care to hear what she's saying or two, they know what she is saying is true but refuses to analyze their possible role in it.

[Whisp]

3. what I do

is write that person off. who needs the aggravation and sure thing these kinds don't want to learn anything new. so, out damn spot. out of my life. piss off.

online is a different thing for me. I know the results will probably be the same - no effect, but it's a gestalt sort of thing for me more than anything and I know that there are other women who know what I am talking about here and I don't feel alone. In the real world too often you have to confront these things from a very lonely place.

[yardwork]

12. The problem is that these folks are our bosses, partners, family members, HOA presidents, etc.

Certainly it's best to ignore irritating people online and in real life if they aren't important to our lives. But there are lots of people we must figure out how to work with and negotiate with.

[seabeyond]

4. you are tired of it? think how gd tired i am of it living it a lifetime. YOU dont want to hear it?

i dont either and lookie, i am sitting, minding my own business and someone sticks it in my face.

doesnt fly with me.

watch the threads. you will get outrage. what outrage, i made a comment
hysterical
vapors
overwrought.... what? ok, that is a cute one
afraid, panic. again, i made a comment. where the fuck is the fear and panic

they use it to create you as the shrill, screaming hysterical woman. more language we have used on women to make them so, regardless if they are. it is just biology, dontcha know.

the more conversation you find, you will see men telling you how out of control, disrespectful, as they ignore what you say and hurl names to demean and dismiss you. i get more and more patient. even keel. and they get more and more unreasonable. and still, they will point the finger.

women do all kinds of gymnastic acrobatics to contort themselves in a manner that will be acceptable voice for men, to be heard.

and it wont ever be good enough

so, let it go. dont even try to do all that contorting. you will be rewarded so few times, with success. just keep speaking out adn ignore the names and dismissing attitude. keep speaking out. dont let it slide.

[redqueen]

6. ...

women do all kinds of gymnastic acrobatics to contort themselves in a manner that will be acceptable voice for men, to be heard.

[Sera_Bellum]

7. +1 n/t

[redqueen]

5. Ignore them or ask them to deal with the material and stop whining about the tone.

A friendly and dispassionate tone should only count in certain settings (dealing with strangers, academia, public settings).

Among friends and allies it shouldn't be needed, and if they say it is, they are not being very good friends or allies. IMO.

[Sera_Bellum]

8. +1 n/t

[Starry Messenger]

9. It's code for "I'm never going to support your point of view".

Last edited Fri Feb 10, 2012, 05:21 PM - Edit history (1)

What the person making the tone argument is saying is "I find your opinion rude and offensive to my privilege, but have chosen a dodge to silence you." If they can keep moving the goalposts, they know they can wear people down.

I always love the response where the person denies that they are stepping on your tail, because they know they are not the kind of person that steps on tails. Meanwhile, you've staring right down at their foot on your tail....

[yardwork]

11. A man said exactly that to me recently.

I confronted somebody recently about some serious communication issues, and his response was that it was impossible for him to have failed to communicate because he was a good communicator! He was not the "kind of person who doesn't communicate" and with that he blithely excused himself from months of really bad behavior.

[Starry Messenger]

15. Ouch, I don't think I've ever encountered it in person.

Mostly online.

[yardwork]

10. Oh, the TONE excuse. That one makes my blood boil.

Women's points of view would be respected if only our tone weren't so....hysterical, whiny, strident, bitchy, difficult, over the top, passive-aggressive, shrill, immature, pouty, bossy, pushy, and so forth and so on.

It's catch-22. If we speak up then our tone is wrong. If we're quiet, then we have nobody to blame but ourselves for not speaking up for ourselves.

One solution is to become very skilled at communicating in the ways that men supposedly value - calm, controlled, self-confident but not forceful, etc. The challenge is that many people are not used to women speaking up, so even when we are self-confident but not forceful we are perceived as bitchy, pushy, etc. Women perceive us this way, too.

We have to change the culture to accept that women have as much of a right to speak up as men.

[seabeyond]

13. even when we are self-confident but not forceful we are perceived as bitchy, pushy, etc

and to ask a question.... OMG, you would think you are challenging the person. what? i am looking for clarification.

i run into that all the time, causei am straight forward and blunt, precise. that is what men want, right? we are told repeatedly we go all over the place to get to the point. and men just say what they have to. when a woman just says what she has to, she is such a ______.... didnt wrap it up all pretty, first.

[yardwork]

14. Exactly. Too forceful? Bitch. Too gentle? Wimp. These are all excuses to avoid communicating with us

[iverglas]

16. not up to saying much myself just now

(hey, I'd probably just sound whiny -- I'm sure feeling whiny ...)

Just wanted to say I've enjoyed reading everything in this thread. Like, you know, not enjoyed the fact that any of it had to be said, but enjoyed seeing what everybody had to say.

[MadrasT]

18. I appreciate all your replies

I have to say, my recent experience with this really cause me to reevaluate my understanding of a few men who I had thought better of prior to this.

Unfortunately one of them is my boyfriend... but there is hope for him so I shall persevere.

This deflection tactic is definitely something I will be more aware of in the future.

Thanks everyone.