Question for LGBT activists - especially the older generation - re advice to atheists

[dmallind]

While I've dipped my toes into the LGBT side of life I've never been a real member of the movement side of things, and even though I'm far from young I'm not old enough to have seen the 60s-80s sea change in acceptance with adult eyes. For those with that experience especially, but of course open to all, I have a question:

While nobody doubts there is much room for improvement, there's been a huge increase in acceptance of LGBT folk amongst the straight population. Legal rights are lagging, but public loathing and mistrust and non-acceptance are much less of a problem than they were 25 years ago say. Atheists have the problem reversed. Our legal woes are and for decades in the US have been minimal compared to gay rights issues, but our public acceptance, trust and "reputation" is stubbornly at the 1950s level. My perception is that the LGBT folks made much greater strides by becoming more vocal, more "in your face" even; but again, I wasn't there. That method is a recent addition to atheism's repertoire but as yet doesn't seem to be gaining much traction.

So what advice do you have? If you were (or heck are) trying to improve the public's acceptance of atheists in the same way, how would you suggest it be done?

[Behind the Aegis]

1. The way...

The movement was originally more about ourselves. Understanding we were not "evil and bad," just because we were gay. It was after that then the movement went mainstream after being pushed too far. We showed others we wanted to live our lives free of their hate, but we were not going to "impose" our sexuality on them.

The difference I see in the movements is GLBT folks, while being "in your face," were more about living our lives with respect and freedom, we weren't trying to belittle, degrade, or otherwise humiliate heterosexuals.

[jhrobbins]

4. Yep - what he said!!

I am a person of faith and I do not get in people's faces and tell them they are stupid, childish, delusional, etc, for NOT being a person of faith. Yet, for some reason, atheists seem to have no compunction about charging in and telling me I am all of those things. By and large, only RW evangelicals attack others with impunity, but they are hardly representative of people of faith. I used to love Joe.My.God, but it is open season on POF and I don't go anymore. I just really don't undersstand the venom of many vocal atheists on these public sites.

[2ndAmForComputers]

11. "...we weren't trying to belittle, degrade, or otherwise humiliate heterosexuals."

Damn right, you weren't. Which doesn't keep a big number of homophobes from saying you were, and are.

Now let's look at atheism and reactions to it, again...

[Behind the Aegis]

12. And that is THEIR issue.

Edit to add: It doesn't mean one has to stoop to their level or ignore real issues.

[2ndAmForComputers]

15. Saying those "OMG gays threaten the Traditional Family" lunatics are lunatics...

...is not quite "stooping to their level."

[Behind the Aegis]

16. I didn't say that was.

However, mocking, deriding, shaming, and/or ridiculing someone who happens to be religious or spiritual, simply because they are religious or spiritual is stooping to their level.

[William769]

17. This is the LGBT Group I don't like where you are taking this.

I think there are other Groups more suited to this discussion.

Thank you.

[2ndAmForComputers]

18. I'm just saying I've seen atheist haters which are as vicious...

...as the Santorums of life are towards LGBT people. And that both need to be called out forcefully and emphatically.

What else did you think I was going to say?

[William769]

19. I have no idea, but I do know it's veering off from our SOP.

Thats why I suggested another group for this conversation.

[2ndAmForComputers]

20. I apologize. This thread was recommended to me in another group.

Consider it un-hijacked. See ya.

[William769]

2. As a long time LGBT activist

It's hard for me to give advice on this subject.

You are seeking approval for acceptance (if I'm reading this correctly), although I think that we should be accepted, our struggle has been more about equality & rights.

up until 2003, I could be arrested & sent to prison just for having consensual sex with my partner. I still cannot marry in the State I live along with 42 other States. Up until very very recently I could not have served in our military openly. And don't even get me started on discrimination laws.

So for the reason s I have been fighting for, I don't see how I could be of any help in what you are looking for.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. the focus of atheists should be making religion private, rather than having to publicly

declare religious preference or allegiance. religion should always be a DEEPLY personal matter. it is really unfortunate that it is not

i think the focus of lgbt was to achieve visibility and being out.

in some ways, i think our goals are opposite

[HillWilliam]

8. En point!

I consider faith to be a deeply personal, private experience. It's more private than sex or sexual expression. I don't think any two people experience it the same way. Even those of no faith experience its absence in profoundly different ways.

Religion and all matters of faith should be private, even more private than sex.

To the OP: Our experiences, goals, and struggles are quite different. I'm not sure what I can offer, but I do appreciate the fact you feel more comfortable asking here.

[2ndAmForComputers]

13. I think right now we need some visibility too.

It shouldn't be, but it still has to be heavily advertised that the minority in question are (a) a large number of people, and (b) common, honest, decent folk in average, like everybody. This can only be achieved by being deliberately visible.

That's still true for LGBT people, for African-Americans, Latinos, Jews, Muslims, and lots of other minorities. Which includes atheists.

In a perfect world, public displays to assert the rights of minority X and call for respect to it shouldn't be necessary.

[Behind the Aegis]

14. I agree with you.

[Ruby the Liberal]

5. As a longtime PFLAG

I see a difference, and that is choice. Being gay is not a choice, atheism (or religious belief) is. Being gay has serious legal implications that being an atheist does not (estate, medical, benefits rights).

While there are certainly lessons to be learned from the fight for equality, it is not comparable, IMO.

[HillWilliam]

9. I think faith (or lack of) is wired-in

and there is some science to back that up.

There are many kinds of sexual expression within one's orientation (vanilla, SM, BD, etc) just as there are kinds of religions to follow (Catholic, Methodist, Muslim, Buddhist, etc) as expressions of faith -- if one has faith. I see a humanist or atheist path as equally valid as any religion or faith. The brain has wiring for expression in both realms.

I say "faith" (to include lack of faith) as opposed to "religion" because faith and religion are entirely separable just as sex and sexual expression are entirely separable.

For instance, I have faith in Something Greater and a life beyond the physical. What either of those might be, I haven't a clue. I don't have religion because I don't feel a need to dig beyond that. I'll know when/if I get there. It simply Is, and I'm completely at peace with that; I feel no need to attempt to unscrew the Inscrutable. Everyone else's mileage will vary. That's faith.

"Religion" attempts to homogenize and depersonalize the experience of faith; yet, no matter how much dogma is thrown at a person, they'll only accept as much as they can experience. How many Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians, etc, repeat liturgy Sunday after Sunday whilst admitting in confidence they don't believe everything they're repeating as mass?

As for me, no matter what church I happen to attend (weddings and funerals only, these days), I may respond with the liturgy du jour, but nothing touches my own personal experience of faith. I think that is similar to most people's experience.

At once, I am a gay man. That factor simply Is and I don't feel a need to either to exult or agonize over it. I have experienced many kinds of sexual expression; some gains my enthusiasm; some others do nothing for me at all. Within the realm of being gay (or any orientation) there are many paths to follow for personal fulfillment. One may participate in any kind of scene with a partner, but it's doubtful any experience will change the set of acts in which a person will feel fulfilled or satisfied.

It's easy to tell someone to believe something; it's quite another to get them to believe it in entirety. To that end, people do choose religions that fit their experience. It's easy to tell a gay person "just be straight", but in no proven case has orientation actually changed.

I can not believe that anyone can choose to have faith or not, just as one can not choose orientation. Still atheists have a hard row to hoe to put their lack of experience on par with those who do experience faith. It may be equally valid, but try to explain that to people who are wrapped up in religion (whether or not they have an actual faith).

I must agree that the two kinds of struggle for recognition aren't comparable at all; indeed, due to legal and medical implications. Faith is a more touchy subject than sexual orientation. Again, I consider both to be deeply private and personal and neither completely to be a choice.

And BTW, thanks for participating in PFLAG. PFLAG has done much to increase acceptance and visibility of LGBT people. I appreciate it very much.

[marginlized]

6. Time to unload

The snarky answer might be instigate a plague on atheists which threatens the rest of society so that society finally has to honestly come to terms with you in some fair and compassionate way.

But William769 framed it best. Gay folks are looking for civil rights, not some fuzzier acceptance. While atheists, and count me as one, just want respect. No one's going to jail for atheist beliefs, but I came out in the early 70's, and sodomy laws got you fired just for parking in front of a gay bar. I'm not joking.

I can say I do think there are an awful lot of in-your-face, downright nasty atheists out there who are just as intolerant of other people's beliefs as they claim their fundamentalist enemies are. In fact, when I attend an atheist meeting I often feel as though I'm being put through some sort of purity test. Simply claiming to be an atheist isn't good enough. All manner of dogmatic questions get posed: "Did Einstein believe in God?" And of course the "Free Thinkers" and "Humanists" don't like the "A word". I won't even talk about Brights, Sceptics and other sects.

It might be that atheists just need to work at building community for themselves. The demographics in the groups I see suggests it was popular in the 30's and 40's when the AHA was started. Then membership fell off a cliff. But its building again with groups like the SCA, FFRF, and SSA.

And this is just as good a place as any, so this is my big gripe with these people.

When I walk into an atheist meeting, it's always "oh look, a gay person … lets all hate on those fundies for denying you your rights … ". And I just want to say: 1. How convenient that my orientation provides you with an axe for your grindstone, but… 2. its my orientation, not yours, so get your effing hands off it and STFU. 3. I'm not here because I'm gay, I'm here because I'm an atheist. 4. When I'm in a gay crowd, I'm usually the ONLY atheist in the room and … 5. That never makes me popular. I can't get a date!

So if I want to be singled out, yet again, for being gay, there are lots of other places I can go to do that that will make these atheists look like the amateurs they are.

[beyurslf]

7. i am gay and atheist.

I think just being who you are is one way to acceptance. I can also echo what many others have said on here. Lots of atheists are pretty in your face about it. I know why, sometimes, I guess. There can be an awful lot of assumptions about non-believers. But being nasty or rude never wins any friends. I just try to educate.

[Fearless]

22. Ditto!

[marginlized]

10. But to answer the question …

One technique I've seen local A groups use is to simply volunteer as a group of atheists in some way that benefits the larger community without any recompense other than the visibility which says "see, we're nice too".

Usually, the visibility that atheists put their energy into comes in the form of billboards or ads which state their case. And I understand there's always a need for education. And I'm always amazed at the continual "what DO you people believe in …?" kinds of questions. But stuff that piques interest and curiosity and maybe, just maybe, makes people want to join in works better.

When I volunteer, I'm joining for some of that feel good stuff quite apart from whatever metaphysics are held by whomever organized what I'm doing, for example Habitat For Humanity. Only to find, years later, at my local A-meeting that my sweat stained HFH ball cap gets pointed at and I'm informed they are 'of faith' and therefore should not be condoned. Impure. Damn, next time I'll wear the VHEMT cap with my AVEN button on it.

A larger issue with some A groups may just be their newness and lack of organization. When I go to a UU social, for example, people don't discuss metaphysics. "Oh, our metaphysics discussion groups are Thursday nights. Btw, do you like the coffee and cookies?" In contrast, local A groups are often young and have that first year college debating club feel: "How do you KNOW your car is still parked outside … ?"

[dsc]

21. I think the thing that has helped gays gain acceptance

more than anything else over the years is coming out and the fact so many people know and/or are related to, a gay person. I don't think that atheists have reached that position yet, and will likely not gain widespread acceptance until they do.

[Fearless]

23. People need to stand up and say who they are.

Atheists are hush hush talk still in many circles. If your doctors and other heavy science people, who are statistically much more likely to be atheist, stand up, you will see that many more people will come around.

The issue of internalized differences from the norm, like LGBT differences from the norm, is that because people don't know someone who is outside the norm in these categories, they tend to see outside as a scary dark evil place... Similar to those who are afraid of the dark and things that go bump in the night, those in the norm see those outside the norm as being scary or stereotypically un- whatever you are.

[Secret Agent Maam]

24. Speaking as a gay atheist

I think there's one fundamental difference between the LGBT community and the atheist community that explains most of the difference in how each group has gained acceptance.

The gay rights movement has always been about LGBT people being real, first-class citizens. We've fought for the end of discriminatory laws, the ability to serve openly in the military, marriage rights, etc. These are all things that straight people get, and we're simply demanding equal treatment under the law. No significant portion of the LGBT community has ever been vocal about wanting to destroy heterosexuality. We've always been very clear that we are absolutely *not* trying to recruit anyone's children or "turn" anyone gay. Straight people are born with their orientation, and so are we, and everyone should be able to live as they are and enter into whatever relationship they like with whatever consenting adult floats their boat. I think one of the most important parts of the movement has been convincing straight society that our relationships have absolutely nothing to do with theirs. I just want to be legally married to my wife. I have no interest in forcing the straight couple across the street to get divorced and enter into same sex relationships.

The problem with the most visible parts of the atheist community is that there is a large portion of that community who *are* very vocal about not only being personally without religious belief, but also about their goal of destroying religion. A whole lot of very vocal atheists are more than willing to go on at length about how religion is evil, people who have religious belief are stupid, parents who raise their children to be religious are abusive, etc. The problem atheists in general have is that those of us who are sane and reasonable are often drowned out by the "anti-theist" faction of the community, and that faction is just about the worst group of spokespeople we could possibly have. As long as the experience most people have with atheists is with someone who's berating them for having faith, we'll never make any headway.