Tired of gay male rape culture

[Prism]

A little bit.

I know that gay men can be aggressive, and in bar culture especially, we're expected to tolerate a certain degree of groping and handling.

But tonight really bothered me.

Long story short, I was designated driving a friend's birthday party. My friends got blitzed while I drank waters and diet cokes while making polite chat with the bartender (who was clearly high or drunk or both). At the end of the night, as the bar emptied, I sent everyone to the car while I slid over for one last pee before leaving. While alone at the urinal, suddenly an arm was around my throat and a hand around my genitals.

No, not ok!

I'm a muscular guy, so it was easy for me to throw him off, but what the eff. Who does that? I don't like going to bars because of the aggressiveness. Before tonight, the last time I went to a bar I was literally ten feet through the door before a fellow at the bar grabbed my waist, pulled me in, and declared, "You're going home with me." (Uhm, no, I'm not.).

At what point does assertiveness devolve into assault? I'm starting to wonder. I'm used to ass grabbing, crotch touches, and the usual contact that comes with sauntering into a gay bar, but the arm around the throat spooked me. He was clearly trying to pin me because he was bigger.

Where is the line here? What, if anything, do we do about it?

I'm not a make a fuss type, but the way this bartender grabbed my throat from behind freaked me the hell out. And he thought nothing of it. Even after I pushed him away and walked out, he followed and more or less asked me out on a hook up. WTF. It's not an isolated incident, either. Just the most aggressive and alarming. I'm starting to hate going to bars.

Do we accept this as a default environment of being a gay male? It seems like we do. We all talk about. "Oh, this guy at a bar did this or that." We and our friends all have countless stories. But it's not really ok, is it?

Does anyone here feel similar or have insight?

Sorry for the rambling. But again, arm around the throat has really freaked me. It was so unexpected and bizarre. And he thought it was ok! And he had a friend at the bar who laughed when he realized what was happening. Just ugh.

[MNBrewer]

1. Nonconsentually, definitely not OK

Not at all.

[Betty Karlson]

2. There are plenty of establishments who do not condone such behaviour

neither from the bartender nor from any of the patrons. There are establishments where everyone engages in a bit of (consensual) role-play. If that is not your thing, avoid those bars, or make it clear from the outset that you are just there for the company you are in.

If all else fails: say to the bartender "we both know that you are just goofing around, but this is NOT my idea of a good evening. Leave me alone."

If he ignores that - that's sexual assault an you should report it.

If one of the patrons is making you uncomfortable, let the bartender know how you feel, so he can warn off the stranger.

Clear communication is - as always - the key.

[nomorenomore08]

6. Very well said.

[Prism]

8. You have a point

I was at a "certain type" of bar without really realizing it was that kind of place (it was the first time I'd been). Apparently he's not a usual bartender, which would explain an awful lot.

[LeftofObama]

3. I quit going to bars several years ago for that and many other reasons.

I don't know about lesbian bars, but bars with gay men are like an old ladies sewing circle of gossip. If you do hook up with someone you're a whore. If you don't hook up with anyone you're a prude. A friendly smile or chat is perceived as flirting while minding your own business is perceived as snobby. It's a no win situation that I refuse to play.

[Prism]

9. Very much so

Usually I go with friends and stick around them, but I do try to be polite and social if standing at the actual bar while waiting for a drink.

Quick story. When I first moved to the Bay Area, a gay neighbor took me to an event at a bar in SOMA. After about an hour, I realized he knew and/or dated everyone in the place. As I glided from knot to knot of people, it dawned on me they all kind of knew each other and were involved or had histories in some way. Not too many people were saying, "Oh, Phil? He's a great guy!" No, it was always some little denigrating, "Oh, that bitch," commentary.

Since then, I've steered very well clear of being a regular anywhere or forming a social circle that frequents the same establishments over and over.

I do go to the Castro and SOMA regularly, but the establishment changes all the time so I don't often see the same faces.

[Fearless]

4. I can definitely commiserate

I personally don't drink that much, and for that matter I don't often go to clubs--completely because of the pro-active aggression I've seen and had directed at me. I've had the exact same thing happen to me before and I like you can defend myself just fine. But what if I was smaller than the guy or drunk? Or both? I could literally be in a position where I couldn't do anything.

I won't say it's common, but it's certainly TOO common.

[Prism]

10. There have been some scary incidents

About a year ago, I was sitting on a curb at 2AM after places closed waiting on a friend. Not drunk at all, but after two beers and having been up nearly 36 hours, I certainly looked like I might be, dozing a little with my head on my knees. Suddenly, this guy pulled up in his car, got out, and started tugging on my arm to go with him.

Sometimes I wonder what on earth goes on in people's heads.

[closeupready]

5. Women do this to men, as well. I don't like being solicited by women, nor

from men whose attention I do not reciprocate. That said, I've stopped hanging out, pretty much - too much drug abuse, lots of fat people, and as someone else said it's more like a knitting circle than a hot scene.

[Prism]

11. I do most of my social meeting people online

If my friends weren't bar types, I'd probably never go. It always seems like other people are constantly involved in drama, and they all know each other.

I don't want anyone to know me, lol.

[closeupready]

13. The last time I went out to a gay bar, it was 75% female.

Or more. Like, what is the point of that. I don't think I even finished my beer, and high-tailed it out of there.

There are days, or even weeks, on this board (DU) when I am relating with females here FAR more than I do in real life, and if this board is an accurate measure of how women relate to men in real life, ... well, to paraphrase a former boyfriend of mine who verbalized this much more colorfully than I'd be permitted to do here, I don't get the attraction, heterosexuality. (I probably never will.)

For example, we'd be out for dinner, or shopping, pass by a hot guy with his girlfriend who - shall we say - was clearly not his equal in beauty, very domineering ... we'd give each other this 'huh?' look. He'd just chuckle, shrug and mutter, 'you gotta be straight (to get it).' (Or lob witticisms like 'what a waste'.)

None of that is really topical, but speaks more to your sub-topic on how you've come to socialize in San Francisco. There are plenty of women that I find are not just interesting but fascinating (here on DU, Lionness, of course, or Bain's Bane), and who behave with a mature, deliberate coolness when amongst gay men, but the scene changes so fast, that I have fallen SO out of it and wouldn't recognize them, at first glance.

[nightscanner59]

7. That's disturbing.

I would confront this person directly, my anger would be hard to hold back.
No this certainly is not a default position, this is a drunkard's folly. I don't drink. Alcohol does not have the happy, fun effects on me like it does most, it is a depressant, and does just that for me: one drink and I only want to be alone and become damn near suicidally angry and no one anyone wants to be around. So bars aren't my scene, because the idiotic discourse that devolves into completely senseless babbling from drunks also annoys me beyond description.
But I will relate something that happened to me many years ago now. Circa 1978, I was forcibly raped by a quite famous NFL player, who literally dragged me off the street, drove me to a park and forcibly raped me. It happened in Austin, Texas, and because of the homophobic nature of law enforcement I dared not report or really do any action about this.
However, I did encounter this person on the street near a gay bar downtown a few weeks later. I gave this brute one long, continuous lambasting how badly I had been hurt, how I bled for days from what he did to me, and truly displayed a long, unbroken anger towards this man easily three times my stature that actually had him shocked, speechless and actually crying.
He walked away and I never saw him again, except on television football games. But there's one thing I made damn clear in my tongue lashing of this fool. And that was to grow the fuck up.
Frankly, it's much of the message I have repeated to many of the "meat rack" mentality gays I've encountered, well received or not. That if as a gay community expects to be respected and win rights like those just hard fought for to finally be truly equal under the law as we are in the eyes of god, if you will, then we as a community have a responsibility to act honorably, respectably, and to rise above the mentality equal to the lowest common denominator of misogynistic locker-room hetero's. I've let some older gay men who actually believed that gay men cannot have lasting relations that they are just being part of the problem, making themselves out to be the exact sort our oppressors example us as, grow the fuck up, find a mate and be respectable if you expect to be respected.
I have few words anymore for the likes. I'm glad to see homosexual relations coming out of it's former closeted, dark cornered, pseudo- Stockholm syndrome. I date. I don't get many dates, but I look for friends continually, and due to my non-alcoholism, in a futile fashion. I'll play, tease around on the gay social sites, but as a rule, 99 percent of the time I arrange a date for coffee, lunch or the like I'm stood up. Some talk to me on the social sites, but as soon as often happens, the person I'm texting with makes a sexual proposition before we've even had a casual get-together our conversation is done, they're blocked.
So I'm proud to see our younger gay folks, at least appear to be making headway with developing lasting friendships and dating with possibilities for steady relations.
Yet I'll say it again to many of my own generation and older: Grow the fuck up. Many of you had the potential to be great husbands and even mentors, fathers of children in adoptive need. But you let the likes of the religious idiots convince you could never do it, instead of defying that image. I'm glad to look back on the long-term relations I had, treasure the time we had together, wonder why there was one man that we inexplicably drifted apart despite what a good thing we had going. Just 20-something immaturity, I suppose. I miss my husband who died 25 years ago to this very day. I wish he had lived to see the things we fought for, the respect we earned against adversity which was all he ever saw. Eldon would have shouted from the rooftops when the supreme court would have legitimized, legalized and finally respected our union.
It is up to us to admonish those who would continue to perpetuate meat-rack, aggressive and boorish bullshit like what you experienced. If we ever expect to make truly worthless the words of those who want to repeal our new rights, who want to make us out to be irresponsible "sinners" and "terrorists" the likes of Pat Robertson scares his antediluvian following with, then we need to act responsibly and respectably.
And the acts of the bartender you describe is exactly the opposite of that. Thank you for expressing this. No you are not rambling, you are breaking the Stockholm molded "meat rack" mindset that needs to be left in the 1970's, when my forcible rape could not even be prosecuted, lest I be prosecuted as well.

[Prism]

12. I'm very sorry that happened to you

I'm glad you found the courage and strength to stand up for yourself. I've had my own experiences with nonconsent, but nothing like what you experienced.

There's definitely a shift, I think, with the expectation now of forming more stable and lasting relationships. I think, with the possibility and increasing expectation of marriage, things are tending to settle down or at least surfacely move in that direction. I won't sugar coat and say the meat locker mentality is gone. With the rise of social hook up apps, everyone's having just as much crazy sex as they always did, but nowadays it feels like there are almost two gay worlds. There's the social side we present to our friends (seeking a stable relationship) and the business we do on our phones at night (the clandestine hook up). It's definitely interesting to watch.

I've used phone apps to form my social circle. It is possible to create a profile that is clear and firm in expressing a desire for only friendship. You always find those guys who pretend to respect that, then you meet them and it all goes to hell, but almost all of my current friends were formed from my phone after I moved to a new city. And I know anyone "looking to cuddle" is to be avoided at absolutely all costs, lol.

I do see what you mean about the older generation, though. I've a close friend who is very into older gentleman. I watch his interactions and how some of these guys behave well into their 50s and 60s. Some of them are worse than the 20 somethings I know.

But we're definitely changing gears in the community. To what direction, I couldn't quite say yet.

[Starboard Tack]

14. What a beautifully moving and honest post.

Thank you!

[RKP5637]

15. I had that happen once when I was young and a pretty twink. Some big guy came up to me, twisted

my arm up behind me hard and told me I was leaving with him. I was like WTF, I spun in a circle and went to another area of the bar. I have no idea where he went, but I did not see him anymore that night and never since then. That incident scared me.