Jay-Z on gays

[WillParkinson]

http://thefour2012.com/

[Fearless]

1. Always good to have another ally. K&R! n/t

[William769]

2. Happily recommended!

[Raster]

3. Thank you, Jay-Z! I stand and applaud.

"My husband, Martin Luther King Jr., once said, “We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny… an inescapable network of mutuality,… I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be.” Therefore, I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.’s dream to make room at the table of brotherhood and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people.

Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement. Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions.”

—Coretta Scott King, speaking at the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force’s Creating Change Conference on November 9, 2000.

[whathehell]

4. That's right, J-Z & discriminating against women is no different than discriminating against EITHER.

So could rap music stop with the B-Word now?

Just sayin'.

[harmonicon]

5. It's not as if he discriminates against women.

Have any evidence that he does? Does he pay women who work for him less then men? Has he not made a load of money for women in the music business? I'm not a fan of his or anything, but if you have evidence that he discriminates against women, please provide it.

If you're a professional musician or music critic, I guess I'd respect your opinion of his artistic work, but otherwise I don't see how it's relevant.

[wickerwoman]

7. Why would you have to be a professional musician or music critic to recognise sexism?

If he wrote a song using the word "fag" in a negative way but then had a gay accountant he paid well, would that mean he doesn't discriminate against gay people? He's probably made a lot of money for Jewish people in the music business, but if he wrote a song about "kikes" I'm not sure you could argue that he doesn't really discriminate against them. It's the old "some of my best friends are black" bullshit to say it's fine to call women bitches or hos as long as you pay them the same as men or otherwise make them rich.

[SemperEadem]

8. I don't follow his music

can you name the albums and songs on which he's done that?

[whathehell]

17. According to JoeyBee12, he does do that...Ask for the titles if you like.

[SemperEadem]

21. I don't know him.

Last edited Sat Oct 6, 2012, 02:13 AM - Edit history (1)

and he wasn't the one making the assertions.

[whathehell]

22. You don't have to...he/she posted in the thread. Questions are allowed.

[wickerwoman]

38. I don't follow his music either.

I was responding to harmonican's argument that as long as you pay people well and make them rich, then it's fine to say whatever you want about them. My point is that you can't use disrespectful, discriminatory language about a group of people but then claim that you don't discriminate because you "have a black friend".

[harmonicon]

11. There's an important distinction you're missing here.

Just because James Cameron makes a movie about a boat that sinks doesn't mean that he hates boats.

[whathehell]

14. Uh, no. It's you who are "missing" something.

For one thing, women aren't "sinking ships" and just

because you "use" women and pay them as required by law,

it doesn't mean you do NOT hate them. White filmmakers from

the thirties and forties made "steppin' Fetchit" movies and paid the black actors in them.

Hell, plenty of fillmakers made movies about "fags" and played gays for laughs.

Does that mean they LIKED those Gays and Blacks and considered them equals?

Maybe you're getting the point right about now.
.

[harmonicon]

20. What am I missing?

I'm able to make a distinction between a person and their artistic production.

[whathehell]

23. First, you're "missing" an answer to my question: Should a white man say "nigger" in his "artistic"

production....Should a straight person call a gay man "faggot" in HIS or HER

"artistic production". Inquiring minds want to know.

[harmonicon]

30. You've missed the distinction again.

If someone writes a work of fiction told in the first person, and the narrator refers to someone as some sort of slur, it's not the same as if the author referring to someone as a slur.

So, if it's an artistic production delivered vocally, it can be absolutely ok for someone to say any vile language. Saying and calling are different words with different meanings. For instance, I'm insightful enough to know that Elijah Wood is not a hobbit on a quest to destroy the dark lord Sauron.

Oh, never mind. Lets just go with your plan and ban Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn.

[wickerwoman]

39. The point in Huck Finn is that the audience is supposed to know he's an unreliable narrator.

When he calls Jim a nigger, the audience knows that the author is making a point that racism can involve a disconnect between a person you see as a friend and a stereotype pushed by society and that he is stressing the absurdity of using such despicable language to describe a good friend and companion.

This is not the case with 99% of rap songs that call women bitches and hos. They aren't secretly inviting the listener to see what a sexist ass the singer is. Yes, it's a persona. But it's not a persona that invites critique or makes any broader point about sexism or the status of women in society. Almost all of it is straight-up objectification. Women are a status symbol who show how dominant the singer is.

Pretty sure Mark Twain is spinning like a shish kebab at the comparison.

[whathehell]

27. As you surely know, there is this big "double standard" on DU when it comes to women.

but VERY few here are willing to acknowledge it, let alone "confront" it.

Thanks for being one of the gutsy ones.

[whathehell]

12. If he addresses women as "bitches" or uses that word as a synonym for "woman",

he's about as non-discriminatory as a white guy singing about "niggers".

That's all. .

[harmonicon]

13. So...

white people should eliminate that word from their artistic practice?

Are there certain words which are forbidden from all art, or just from art made by certain people?

I bet there are lots of art schools who could use your insight. You could have a class where students come in, sit down, you give them a once-over and tell them based on race and gender what sounds, text, material, and imagery they are not allowed to use in their work. Clearly, it would be easy for you to teach, and it would presumably be a pretty easy A for the students, because they would just have to satisfy your terms of censorship.

If only I'd had courses that easy when I was studying art and music.

[whathehell]

15. Should whites eliminate "nigger" from their artistic practice? Should straights eliminate "fag"?

If you answer "yes" to either of those questions, you've got your answer.

[harmonicon]

19. My answer is an unequivocal, loud, proud NO!!!!

Artistic practice should never be censored.

[whathehell]

24. One person's "art" is another person's "trash". As for your "loud proud" bs, when someone here

has the guts to do EITHER of the things I've mentioned,

we'll get back with you, but I wouldn't hold my breath,

and until then, I call bullshit.

[harmonicon]

31. Yep. One person's art is another's trash.

That's why it's a good thing that we have freedom of speech.

A lot of really great art would never have been made if we didn't. Some people may not like that art, and that's fine. There's lots of art that I don't care for - I assume a vast majority - but there is no art that I think should be censored.

[whathehell]

36. Freedom of speech or Hate Speech?...Again, you're in a privileged group, so it's all the same to you

as a white male who, straight or not, can probably pass as such,

you have no "skin in the game"

Again -- bag the non-existent "censorship" issue, or I'll have to remind you that the DU Rules

demand "censorship" too. There are WORDS you cannot say here, and

you've obviously colluded with this "censorship" or you would have been TOS'd

long ago.

[whathehell]

26. LOL...Try your "artistic practice" on gays & racial minorities on DU sometime,

and find out how FAST you get thrown off the board, and while you're at it,

research the term "censorship". You'll find it's done by GOVERNMENT,

not by individuals or non-government groups.

[harmonicon]

32. I know what censorship is.

I know enough about it to just dislike things instead of suggesting that they shouldn't be produced.

[whathehell]

35. Apparently you do not.

As to just "disliking" things, yes, that's fine when those "things" aren't being aimed at YOU.

Have you ever been personally harassed or insulted?...Did you simply "dislike" it, or did you "suggest"

that the insulter stop "producing" the insults?

[whathehell]

28. What free speech hero we have here!..Of course, being a white male tend to "encourage" that bravado

since you are not the ones who suffer being demeaned for a condition of birth, are you?

[harmonicon]

33. You had to write three replies?

Did you think three poor arguments would somehow make up for one good one? Quantity over quality?

[whathehell]

34. I certainly did not "have" to,

I wanted to, as three good arguments are even better than one.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

18. he is as much responsible for all of rap music as

hank senior is responsible for all of country music

[whathehell]

25. Who's holding him responsible for all of rap?...According to JoeyBee12, he degrades women himself. .

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. you are :So could rap music stop with the B-Word now?

it's one thing if you had phrased it towards him, but you didn't.

[whathehell]

37. Are you saying Jay-Z does NOT use the B-word?

If you are, the poster downthread disagrees.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

40. i am saying that you didn't know that and you held him accountable for a group of people

that he is not responsible for

[whathehell]

41. I didn't state it as fact, but I did make a very reasonable assumption, considering his genre

and my assumption just happened to be confirmed on this thread.

If you don't "approve" of what I did, I'm afraid you'll just have to recall that "ignore" is your friend.

Enjoy your day.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

42. that's the problem. you hold him responsible for his "genre", in a way that people dont hold

other people responsible for other "genre's"

[whathehell]

43. No. I don't hold him "responsible" for his genre, I questioned his participation

in some of that genre's uglier elements, and a poster down thread confirmed my fears.

That being the case, I'd respect your sense of priorities more if you'd express as much "concern"

about the routine slurring of women in rap, as you do the "reputation" of a rich celebrity you know little about.

Until that happens, we have nothing more to discuss.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

44. my issue is much more than this celebrity. its the way minorities are expected to take

responsibility for their whole group, while majorities are not.

[whathehell]

45. My issue is the way women are expected to take being demeaned

and TREATED as a minority, while those who should know better act like

that's "okay".

[La Lioness Priyanka]

47. one bigotry doesn't justify the other.

[whathehell]

54. No it doesn't. It seems You and Jay-Z need to learn that..

[William769]

48. Let's wrap this up in a nutshell, shall we.

This thread is about marriage equality. Nothing more nothing less. If you have a problem with Jay-Z & women fine, but this isn't the place to discuss it. There are several other Groups that your topic would be better suited. You can even start a thread in the LGBT Group if you so desire.

But don't you dare come in here and piss on a Marriage equality thread with all the shit we have had to endure and are still enduring for equality. You'll find yourself tossed out of here so damn fast it will make your head spin!

And I am writing this post as one of the LGBT Hosts.

If you don't like my attitude, I suggest you contact another LGBT Host.

I hope I have made myself clear here.

[Vanje]

51. Thankyou, William

My very exact sentiments.

[whathehell]

55. Oh yes, lets..

I'm sure this is ALL my fault, as I was silly enough to imagine

that the gay community was, um, half female, but since

you are unaware that women -- straight AND gay -- have endured,

and CONTINUE to endure, at least as much shit as gay men,

feel free to continue in ignorance and self-importance and

THROW ME OUT -- It will be a fucking HONOR!

I do hope I've made MYSELF clear.

[William769]

56. As you wish.

Have a nice day.

[pinto]

57. Support your call. Poster conflated the issues disruptively, persistently.

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[William769]

58. Thanks.

[HillWilliam]

59. Support the call as well

This thread was needlessly derailed by continuous off-topic posts. The poster was invited to start a new thread and chose not to.

[Vanje]

49. Yep. Priyanka has got it. nt

[Cha]

6. Thanks Jay-Z

for those Facts. Dicrimination is Discrimination...against anyone.

[Skittles]

9. Jay-Z played at the Paralympics, too

he is awesome

[joeybee12]

10. That's good, but i still wish he would stop using bitch as

simply another term for a woman.

[whathehell]

16. Yes, and he'll be a Bigot until he does. As The Nation's Katha Pollitt says: "Misogyny is the last

acceptable bigotry of the Left".

[NCLefty]

46. Good to know.

[Vanje]

50. Like! nt

[ForgoTheConsequence]

52. Give me a break

He freely uses the word faggot in his songs. When he apologizes I'll take him seriously.

“Too many faggot niggas clocking my spending/Exercising your gay-like minds like Richard Simmons”

[ForgoTheConsequence]

53. More?

“’…cause faggots hate when you getting money like athletes”

It goes on. Apologize for your homophobic lyrics and give up some of the money you've made putting down gays and maybe I'll care what you have to say.