Tibi: Shame on Arab world for ignoring massacre of Palestinians at Syria refugee camp

[oberliner]

The Islamic State's violent takeover of the Yarmouk Palestinian refugee camp in Syria is a mark of Cain on the foreheads of the international community and the Arab world specifically, MK Ahmed Tibi (Joint List) said Monday.

"What's happening in the Yarmouk camp is a crime against humanity," Tibi said. "Over a thousand Palestinians were killed."

The Yarmouk camp, on the outskirts of Damascus, was once home to over 100,000 residents, but now has only 18,000 according to the UN Relief and Works Agency. It was under siege by the Syrian government for over two years, and was a battleground before that, devastated by street fighting, air attacks and shelling.

Islamic State has taken over 90 percent of Yarmouk, according to a Syrian human rights group, though the Syrian army surrounds the area, which is a few kilometers from Syrian President Bashar Assad's palace.

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Tibi-Shame-on-Arab-world-for-ignoring-massacre-of-Palestinians-at-Syria-refugee-camp-396312

[shaayecanaan]

1. poor bastards

Listening to the crocodile tears in the Israeli media must be the bitterest pill of all.

[oberliner]

4. Seems like they have much bigger problems to worry about than Israeli media coverage.

Pretty sure that is far from the bitterest pill of all.

[still_one]

52. and is that the reason it should not be condemned? I don't think so

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

2. Well, there is a solution. Let the Palestinians return to

the lands that Israel ethnically cleansed them of.

[oberliner]

3. Good point

Israel does a much better job of protecting the lives of its Palestinian population than Syria does, that's for sure.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

5. And yet Israel does everything in its power to keep

the Palestinians as refugees: not letting them return home.

Also to say that Israel is better than Syria amounts to a poorly thought out joke.

[oberliner]

6. State Of Syrian Refugee Camp Under ISIS Attack Is 'Beyond Inhumane,' UN Official Says

Chris Gunness, a spokesman for the U.N. agency that supports Palestinian refugees known as UNRWA, told The Associated Press in Barcelona late Sunday that the agency has not been able to send any food or convoys into the camp since the fighting started.

"That means that there is no food, there is no water and there is very little medicine," he said. "The situation in the camp is beyond inhumane. People are holed up in their houses, there is fighting going on in the streets. There are reports of ... bombardments. This has to stop and civilians must be evacuated."

He said 93 people have been evacuated from the camp so far.

The United Nations says around 18,000 civilians, including a large number of children, are trapped in Yarmouk. The camp has been under government siege for nearly two years, leading to starvation and illnesses. The camp also has witnessed several rounds of ferocious and deadly fighting between government forces and anti-Assad militants.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/06/yarmouk-camp-isis_n_7009888.html

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

7. Which does nothing to refute my earlier reply.

These refugee camps exist since Israel refuses the Palestinians to return to the areas that they were ethnically cleansed from...namely in Israel.

So Israel has something in common with Syria, and it doesn't have to do with their location on a map.

[oberliner]

9. Not intended to refute anything

I just know you are interested in/concerned about the situation facing the Palestinians in Yarmouk right now so I wanted to share the updated information.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

10. And I am sure that you would agree that

ROR would alleviate this crisis.

Allowing the refugees to make aliyah to their place of origin would be a smart policy...especially for those that value human rights.

[King_David]

26. Lucky the Palestnians have such great leaders in the usa whom have never even been to Israel nor

Palestine but the leaders are there.( in the USA and even 1 or 2 here in our group on DU)

LOL

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

30. Whatever that means, dave.

[hack89]

8. Those that left in 1948 should be allowed to return.

it is a small enough group that it shouldn't cause many problems.

[bravenak]

11. Them and their descendants.

Makes no sense at all to say that the descendants should be barred from entry from the land of their origen. Their parents will need their help if still alive. It would be stupid for them to trust Israel to care for their elderly parents. Ror for all refugees and their descendants, otherwise I see a one state solution coming with the Arab vote surpassing the Jewish vote in the near future. Since Netanyahu said there will never be a Palestinian state on his watch, it is time for a better plan. I feel like its 'Deal or No Deal' time right now. If there is 'no deal', one state solution it is.

[hack89]

12. RoR is a one state solution and the end of Israel

that is why it won't happen.

Compensation for lost land is the appropriate solution with the refugees settling in the West Bank and Gaza.

[bravenak]

13. If Israel took something that does not belong to them...

They must give it back or be considered Illegitimate, criminal, theives. Just like Us. If giving back what you took ends your existance, then there were many many issues. Israel is not winning over the world to it's side. It has lost the new generation of Americans (the only nation still supporting them), millenials, and we are not likely to support that apartheid state when we come to power. In about 15-20 years, we will be making the rules. That should be scary enough to cause them to re-assess what they are willing to do. Israel has formed an alliance with the rightwing of America. They desipse the left and all we stand for.
You say it won't happen, I say you're right. They will never GIVE back anything. It will be taken from them. They can do it the easy way, fast and quick, rip the bandaid off style, or they can do it slow, with increasing unpopularity leading to us to abstain from votes at the UN on matters of sanctions against them. We supported apartheid in SA too, America did. We failed there and will fail again.

What people seem to forget is that we have better ways of communicating and disseminating information than we did even ten years ago. That is how Israel is loing. Hasbara does not work when you have google. Lie do not help when you have fact checkers. Land thefts are obvious on maps. And Israel keeps bombing the shit out of civilians. No nation has a right to exist. Even Rome fell and one day the US will to.
Can't just settle people in a land that is still being stolen acre by acre. Soon there will be nothing left to call Palestine. Israel is working to a one stat solution already. Israel may stick around, but soon it will be majority Arab.

[hack89]

14. Who is going to take it from them?

who is going to invade Israel, remove the Israelis living on the land, and resettle the Palestinians?

[bravenak]

15. They are going to take it from themselves and start sharing.

There will be sanctions and that will snowball. Netanyahu is working very hard at making sure democrats think twice about supporting Israel blindly. How long did you think the blind support of Israel would last? Europe is holding back because of America. We veto every resolution against Israel. They don't have a bunch of friends, you know?
I have no idea why you think that means anybody will be removing anybody. I never said anything resembling that.
I did say that they will have a one state solution and be outnumbered by Arab of Palestinian Origin. Those nice people may even vote to rename the nation if they so please. There will never be a pakestine on Netanyahu's watch or and right wing PM's watch, and Israel is rightwing. The rest of the world is not going to wait forever and there is not enough land left for a Palestinian state as it is.
May as well just face facts.

I find it strange that people think things will continue the same forever. Our world is changing faster than ever.

[hack89]

16. Because we know what a phenomenal success BDS is.

Why do you think that after ISIS and Iran reorder the balance of power in the Middle East that Israel will be the odd man out? Have you ever considered as the conflagration grows that that the Palestinians (who mean nothing to the Arab nations) become more irrelevant as Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt turn to the strongest military in the region? You are right - things never remain the same. Your mistake is thinking that support in the ME for the Palestinians is a given. The Arab countries will betray the Palestinians in a heartbeat to ensure their survival.

There will be no one state solution or even a two state solution. The present three state solution will be the status quo for the foreseeable future.

[bravenak]

17. BDS worked in SA.

It took decades to work. I give it about ten more years to work in this situation.
As far as why do I think Israel will be the odd man out? Simple. Israel cannot get along with it's neighbors, cannot get along with it's allies, and is quickly shedding friends. That's why. Unpopularity.

When you hate everybody around you, they hate you back.

BDS is still at the beginning. It is changing minds. One person at a time. 20 years ago there would never have been votes on college campuses talking about Boycotting Israel. We are their main friend and only real support in the international stage. Our kids, our future leaders, are just not that into Israel. In my age group, not into Israel. It's not until you get into the early 50's that support shoots up. Israel has neglected to forge ties with human beings of this generation. Those kids will not protect Israel and send them bombs and billions. Israel needs protection from us, bombs and billions to survive. The majority of the people who are pro BDS are younger, college educated and in their prime. In twenty years they will still be here. Israel's staunchest supporters will not be still alive in 20 years. That is why BDS is going to work splendidly. There is no time frame. It goes on until it works. If it worked in SA, it will work in Israel. Everybody needs money and millenials will have plenty. We are the next biggest generation after boomers.

[hack89]

18. The notion that Israel can be forced to destroy itself is ludicrous.

I understand that is what you want but it is very unlikely to happen.

[bravenak]

19. Israel is trying to destroy itself imo.

[hack89]

20. Time will tell I guess. nt

[guillaumeb]

22. like your responses to this post

especially the demographic one, that the younger generation is not as uncritically supportive of Israel. That is also a factor facing the GOP in the US. The Tea Partiers may have money and loud voices, but 10-20 years from now most of them will be compost.

No empire can last, neither the Roman one, the British one, not the US or the Israeli one. Just terrible how the victims of that empire must suffer until the empire dies.

[bravenak]

23. Thank you.

I am patiently waiting for the day the humanity wakes up and realizes that war and death and pain should not be doled out to each other. I don't like Empires. The things they do wrong are too many to count.

[Smithryee]

90. BDS for Israel started in 2005.

10 years later, it still achieved nothing.

[bravenak]

91. Took over 20 years in SA. Much more.

[azurnoir]

92. it took over 40 for BDSagainst South Africa to take hold things are moving faster now however

who knows what can change in oh say 7 minutes

[King_David]

97. 40 years ? Source please

[azurnoir]

99. I didn't say years did I? :) however it started in 1959 and ended in 1991 or 1992

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Apartheid_Movement

[King_David]

102. Quite the stretch that

And how confident you said it.

[azurnoir]

104. it took over 30 years though didn't it

but in the end it worked

[Smithryee]

78. It belongs to the state of Israel.

There are historical and Biblical reference to the borders of Israel.

Was Palestine around in the biblical times

[bravenak]

79. The bible has no standing in international law.

You are speaking to an Atheist. I do not use the bible as historical research material to use in secular discussions.
The only territory that belongs to Israel is what she was given by the UN.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

24. All Palestinians should be allowed to make Aliyah.

They should be allowed to come home to the lands that their descendants were ethnically cleansed from.

[hack89]

25. How do you plan to evict the Israelis living there?

violently I would assume? A little tit for tat ethnic cleansing?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

31. So you agree that Israelis took Palestinian property then.

No, I would suggest that the ICC gets to rule on land theft and show the Israelis how the rule of law works.

[King_David]

27. What's your understand my of the word "Aliyah"

Because it obviously and clearly doesn't mean what you think it does.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

32. The Palestinian diaspora will have their own Aliyah, dave.

Perhaps when they do it will wipe that arrogant smirk off the face of hasbaristas everywhere.

[King_David]

34. What does "Aliyah" mean to you?

From your strange response I'm thinking you actually don't know.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

40. Why don't you tell everybody what Aliyah means to you...

...of how the diaspora gets to come home.

[King_David]

45. Ha ha ha

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

46. Go ahead, Dave. Nobody is holding you back.

[Little Tich]

44. I think that every person should be allowed to live in their ancestral homeland.

When it comes to the land between the river and the sea with many names, this should be applied to both Jews and Palestinians, I think.

I really don't see how that would cause a problem to Israel, which has in the past shown it's well capable of handling large-scale immigration.

[hack89]

48. It would be the end of Israel

do you really think the Palestinians want to be Israelis?

[Little Tich]

54. What's wrong with becoming Israeli?

If you immigrate to Israel, you become an Israeli?

Perhaps they would rather that Israel wasn't a Jewish State?

[hack89]

55. I am sure they would want it to be an Islamic state

there are no Arab secular states. No democracies for that matter. Like I said, the end of Israel.

[Little Tich]

57. There seem to be irreconcilable differences in our fundamental world views.

You are wrong, of course.

[hack89]

58. Naturally. Nt

[King_David]

49. You said Zionism was Racism

I think that statement alone disqualifies you from any further substantive discussion on this topic at all.

[bravenak]

51. You get to make all the decisions, eh, your Grace?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

59. LOL! He's written as much to me as well.

One should not make proclamations that they have no way of enforcing.

Enfarcing perhaps...

[bravenak]

61. Enfarcing.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

63. It's tough being a king without a kingdom.

But seriously folks...

One poster here is practically bragging that Israel will not give anything back then states that the they have not stolen anything while others either blow smoke up our ass, play victim or pass non-binding vapor edicts to their imaginary subjects.

Something sure isn't right with them.

[bravenak]

65. A clown with a crown.

[King_David]

70. I get to express my opinion,

Which carries ore weight with myself than anyone else posting in this thread , with one exception.

[bravenak]

72. Absolutely, Your Grace.

[Little Tich]

53. I did no such thing.

I did say that Zionism is a racist ideology, which is quite different. I will clarify that all nationalist ideologies are racist, simply because they are about exclusion of the “other”. The fact that I singled out Zionism was simply because I answered a post about Zionism.

Do you think people of jewish descent should be able to live in their ancestral homeland?
Do you think people of Palestinian descent should be able to live in their ancestral homeland?

Is there actually any difference?

[King_David]

68. Ok well there you have it.

[Little Tich]

80. Your input is appreciated.

It’s important that the I/P forum displays a wide range of views, including those that we disagree with.

I’ll look forward to disagreeing with you in the future.

[hack89]

33. It is pretty obvious why they won't let them return

Israel is not going to commit national suicide, regardless of how much that would please you.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

36. So theft of Palestinian land is one thing, but giving it back is another and altogether forbidden...

[hack89]

39. Not forbidden- just impractical

Israel is not going to disappear to please your sense of right and wrong. They will just have to live with your disapproval.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

41. Well, you're big enough at least to admit Israeli theft of Palestinian land and property.

Just not big enought to admit it needs to be returned.

Also, your fantasies of what I want to see happen to Israel are farcical...but keep on dreaming.

[hack89]

50. I made no such admission

bad things happen when you are on the losing side of a war of annihilation.

Do you think Israel is a legitimate state? Should the UN have created Israel?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

60. Israel has stolen land that does not belong to it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113499003#post33

hack89
33. It is pretty obvious why they won't let them return

Israel is not going to commit national suicide, regardless of how much that would please you.

To not let them return implies that they have a right denied.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113499003#post14

hack89
14. Who is going to take it from them?

who is going to invade Israel, remove the Israelis living on the land, and resettle the Palestinians?

Your own words betray you. Resettle? That would imply that they lived there before where now Israelis reside. Theft.

[hack89]

64. I never said they didn't live there before

I am just pointing out they will never live there again.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

66. You just described theft and ethnic cleansing while bragging about it.

Sick.

[hack89]

67. No. I described being on the wrong side of a war of annihilation. Nt

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

69. The world doesn't share your counterfeit history. Theft is theft; no matter

how moral the thieves pretend to be.

[hack89]

73. Right. Got it. Nt

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

74. That's right. You do. Sucks sticking up for theft doesn't it?

[hack89]

75. Not really

a little education, an appreciation of nuance and a non-cartoonish view of history makes it clear why my point of view is not uncommon.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

76. Give my regards to the Empire.

[hack89]

77. No problem. Nt

[King_David]

83. The world has never ever condoned anything the Jewish State has done

But Hack is right, nobody will ever enforce RoR, it never will happen into Israel and it will be up to Palestine to absorb new refugees into their new state when it occurs.

In the end when sanity prevails there probably will be land swaps and the new state of Palestine will have to get used to not getting everything they want or deserve including a truncated EJ.

It is what it is...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

84. "It is what it is..."

What it is IS theft, ethnic cleansing and apartheid.

And yes, I can understand how the world wouldn't condone that. I can also understand how some want to play the poor aggressive victim.

If the tables were turned on Israel and yhe Palestinians cracking the bull whip what would you be saying then?

[King_David]

85. It is what it is as I said

And RoR is not an option and in the end it will be settled with lots of disappointment on the Palestinian side because it's no longer 1948 when they lost the war which failed to exterminate the Jews as planned.

When things settle and sanity prevails if there's ever a 2 state solution big disappointment on both sides but in all likelihood more on the Palestinian side because a lot will not be reversed.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

86. Seemingly that is your expert view in colonization and ethnic cleansing...

It's too bad that the world sees it differently.

[shira]

89. Nope. What it is is the result of a nasty war waged against the Jews....

There's a reason why there is no such thing as Right of Return for any other refugees worldwide, and there were tens of millions worldwide during the 1940's.

The reason is simple. It's to avoid more ethnic strife and conflict.

Israel has offered the Palestinians their own state several times, with compensation for refugees. The Palestinian side refused, obviously believing that the situation now is preferable to them having their own state & compensation.

============

And once again, it's not apartheid. No western nation sees it that way. No major Human Rights NGO's see it that way. The only nations peddling that idiocy are totalitarian & fascist states run by ruthless dictators who are proven Jew haters.

============

If you want total injustice & real ethnic cleansing, there were just as many Jews tossed out of neighboring Arab countries. They lost more (in theft) than Palestinians did. And none of them started a war against their host nation.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

95. I'm not really sure why you would stand for the Israeli pogroms

against the Palestinian people.

Rather I would expect you would understand the plight the Palestinans as they have suffered at the hands of the Israelis in the same way that European Jews suffered.

So I am puzzled how you can rationalize, colonialism, human rights abuses and apartheid.

[shira]

98. You're attempting to compare Israeli self-defense....

...against those committed to the mass murder of her citizens to what happened in Europe against Jews.

That's utterly vile.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

100. No, I am rightly comparing Israeli atrocities towards the Palestinians in the same way

That Europeans treated Jews poorly.

Namely, the colonization of Palestinian lands by conspiring illegal Israeli settlers, the destruction of Palestinian property, the theft of Palestinian land and the human rights abuses that he Palestinians have had to suffer is similar to the way that the Cossacks pogroms, Spanish Inquisition and general European persecutions were inflicted on the Jews.

[shira]

101. And the missing context is that from the start, Jews have been threatened.....

....and attacked by Palestinians constantly. This was happening well before 1948. Ever heard of the Grand Mufti Husseini and his alliance with Nazi Germany? That's before Israel was recognized as a state.

You're equating Israeli self-defense against those committed to the mass murder of Jews to what the Jews have historically suffered.

Except that Jews were never committed to the mass murder of Cossacks, Spaniards, and Europeans. They never once acted upon any such commitment.

The Cossacks, Spaniards, and Europeans oppressed and mass murdered Jews completely due to bigotry and malice. They could never in a million years claim self-defense.

There is no comparison.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

103. No, silly, what I am equating is the horrible state of racism, bigotry, hatred, illegal colonization

Land theft, destruction of property, denial of freedom of movement, denial of basic human rights, assault, murder...apartheid...and the Jews have experienced all of those things. What I find curious is why would Israel decide to treat a racial group in the same way that Jews have been treated over the centuries.

The Palestinians are truly the victims of the victims.

[Smithryee]

94. Question about Jerusalem

Would you support it as neither belonging to Israel or Palestine, but the world - as in an international zone?

[King_David]

96. I think it's going to be Israel

Can't see any way around that.

[Little Tich]

42. Why doesn’t Israel allow Palestinian refugees into the WB and Gaza?

The PA made a request, but Israel refused.

Why?

[guillaumeb]

21. Palestinians being killed in refugee camps could not happen

if the Israelis had not driven them out from 1946 through today. Absent the forced migration of Palestinians fleeing Israeli terror, the Palestinians would not be scattered around the world.
And speaking about crimes against humanity, what about Sabra and Shatila? What about the war crimes of Ariel Sharon? Or are war crimes only what the Palestinians do?

http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/content/sabra-and-shatilla

[King_David]

28. In 1946 there were no Israelis ...

Just Jews.


You do know the history here ?

Sabra and Shatilla massacre were perpetrated by Christian Lebanese Militia not Jews.

You do know this?



( what about .. What about ?

What's next ? USS Liberty and Deir Yasin ?)


What's next ? LOL

[guillaumeb]

29. Can you laugh about Deir Yassin?

Ariel Sharon allowed the massacre to happen. Easily researched. I can supply links if you wish.

In 1946, the Jewish terror gangs were massacring Palestinians. Many members of Irgun and Stern later became quite prominent Israeli politicians. Again, easily researched. I have no problem linking the actions taken before the formal establishment of the Israeli state with actions taken after the establishment of the Israeli state because it was often the same people who perpetrated the same atrocities.

[King_David]

35. Maybe easily researched

Then that's what you should of said , instead of all the inaccuracy in your post.

So the actual perpetrators of Sabra and Shatilla massacre are not as culpable as Sriel Sharon.... ? LOL

[guillaumeb]

37. Equally culpable, in my opinion

Also in my opinion, and an opinion shared by others, Sharon allowed the Maronite Christians to massacre the Palestinian refugees.
There is more here:
http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/content/sabra-and-shatilla

Given that the Palestinians were made refugees by Israeli terror, and given that Ariel Sharon allowed the Phalangists to massacre the Palestinians, assigning degrees of blame is difficult.



Would you agree with this?

[King_David]

43. Jewish Voices for peace on their website describe how important it is to be a "Jewish" voice for..

Cover against charges of antisemitism.
They also describe on the same page how you don't have to be Jewish to join .

Most probably are not Jewish.

JVP are neither Jewish nor Credible and speak for no one but themselves....thankfully. I would never comment on something that bogus group states.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

62. Another empty proclamation by the king.

Dave, you don't speak for JVP inasmuch as you don't speak for anybody here except for yourself...and I wonder at that from time to time.

[King_David]

71. I most definitely do not speak for JVP

I don't wan anything to do with that faux group.

[King_David]

47. What about the Macabees ?

Boy they we're anything but progressive Jews.

And Moses he was a first apartheid occupier.

And don't get me started on Dreyfus and Herzl.

[oberliner]

38. The response to this thread brings shame on the DU world as well

Maybe time for some quiet reflection.

[cali]

93. it's pretty disconcerting

[Little Tich]

56. I think Tibi is barking up the wrong tree.

Pictures of Yarmouk are all over the news. The world is definitely taking notice.

[oberliner]

81. The neighborhood has been under siege by regime forces for nearly two years

The neighborhood has been under siege by regime forces for nearly two years but its people have been exploited by all sides – the regime, the confusing array of rebel groups, Palestinian factions and the international community.

UNRWA, the U.N.’s Palestinian refugee agency, has described the humanitarian situation in Yarmouk as being “beyond inhumane,” after ISIS militants and their bid to control the area sparked the latest flare-up of violence last week.

This means that for several years, the key players – among them the U.N. – allowed a merely “inhumane” situation to continue, since no threat of punishment faced those who engaged in massive human rights violations.

The collective punishment of civilians, and a siege that prevents them from escaping or receiving humanitarian assistance – all took place without generating the kind of urgency that the U.N. showed when, for example, it sanctioned military intervention in Kosovo to prevent a civilian tragedy.

While the ultimate fate of Yarmouk remains unknown, the long-standing situation of premeditated murder against its residents has become clear for all the world to see.

https://www.dailystar.com.lb/Opinion/Editorial/2015/Apr-07/293507-uncontested-murder.ashx

[Little Tich]

82. I barely knew the camp existed.

Well, it’s on the news now. Better two years later than never, I guess.

Perhaps Tibi is right, then. After all, he was there.

[azurnoir]

87. True that and you should should indeed be commended for the concern shown for Palestinians

in Syria

[oberliner]

88. As you should as well

You seem to be one of the very few who have expressed even a modicum of concern or interest in what is happening in Yarmouk. I very much respect you for that.