Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumPoll: 68% of Palestinians support rocket fire against Israel
A poll conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research shows that 68% of respondents support Hamas rocket attacks against Israel.
The poll also indicated a decrease in Palestinian public perception that Hamas had emerged the victor in last summer's Operation Protective Edge, with only 51% of respondents claiming that Hamas had won, compared to 66% who said the same three months ago.
When asked if they were satisfied with the achievements of last summer's events in Gaza, 62% of the Palestinians polled said they were not, and 56% said they supported moving Hamas' armed struggle into Judea and Samaria.
Slightly more than half (51%) of respondents said they supported a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, compared to 49% who opposed that idea. Armed struggle was the option of choice for 37% of respondents, down from 42% who supported an armed struggle as of three months ago.
The number of respondents who said they would opt for peace negotiations and non-violent resistance were nearly the same (29% and 30%, respectively), while 48% said they supported an armed intifada [popular uprising]. Three months ago, 56% of Palestinians polled said they were in favor of an intifada.
http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=24439
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Despite that, a majority of 68% supports the launching of rockets from the Gaza Strip at Israel if the siege and blockade are not ended.
complete poll finds at link
http://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/603
Mosby
(16,319 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)A majority of 51% supports the two-state solution and 48% oppose it. But the public is more divided over the most effective means of ending occupation and building a Palestinian state living to side by side with Israel: 37% believe that armed confrontation is the most effective means; 29% believe negotiation is the best means, and 30% believe that popular non-violent resistance is the most effective route to statehood.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)They were better off before Oslo. All negotiations have gotten them is a rebranded occupation with another layer or two of corruption and brutality.
Popular non-violent resistance and diplomatically isolating Israel are their only hope really.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Can you really mean that?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)https://www.oxfam.org/en/pressroom/pressreleases/2013-09-13/20-years-missed-opportunity-has-undermined-progress-israel
Oslo was an act of submission, not independence. Arafat and his Tunisian mafia in the PA made themselves rich while working as Israel's local security agency.
The Palestinians are poorer, their land literally carved up by the tentacles of the Israeli apartheid state, and their dream of an independent state dead, dead, dead.
Yes, much worse off.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And in every single case through history, the oppressor does not care. That's why they're oppressing, obviously.
The condemnation of liberation movements for resorting to violence or armed struggle is almost invariably superficial, hypocritical, judgmental, and unfair, and tends to strongly represent another example of the generalized phenomena of "blaming the victim." The violence of the situation, the pre-existing oppression suffered by those who eventually strike back, is conveniently ignored. The violence of the oppressed is a form of defensive counterviolence to the violence of conquest and oppression. In no armed national liberation movement I know of in history has this not been the case.
- Jeffrey Sluka
Nobody wants violence. but if it's all you have, then it's what you'll use.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)be the ones to whom such non-violent resistance should be addressed.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Seriously, to what end? do you imagine "The West's" only reluctance on Palestine is that some of the factions engage in violence? I hope not because that's a painfully naive outlook.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)being open and oozing.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)What does addressing nonviolent protest to "the rest of the world" do, exactly?
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)The example everyone puts forth is usually Gandhi, but he achieved much less than what is commonly credited to him. The British empire was pretty necrotic by that time and the Brits pulled out of India more or less in keeping with their having pulled out of everywhere else. The partition of India and Pakistan was conducted with very little participation by Gandhi or anyone associated with him.
MLK is a better example, but the fact is that LBJ reversed his decision to delay the passage of civil rights legislation two days after Malcolm X raised the spectre of a violent uprising, in what was the most consequential speech of his career. To be honest more of the credit for the advances in the mid sixties should be sheeted home to him.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)The British considered Gandhi an asset, seeing him as someone who stymied real efforts to change though his preaching.
It was also apparent that the British were making
use of him, or thought they were making use of him. Strictly speaking, as
a Nationalist, he was an enemy, but since in every crisis he would exert
himself to prevent violence--which, from the British point of view,
meant preventing any effective action whatever--he could be regarded as
"our man". In private this was sometimes cynically admitted. The attitude
of the Indian millionaires was similar. Gandhi called upon them to
repent, and naturally they preferred him to the Socialists and Communists
who, given the chance, would actually have taken their money away. How
reliable such calculations are in the long run is doubtful; as Gandhi
himself says, "in the end deceivers deceive only themselves"; but at any
rate the gentleness with which he was nearly always handled was due
partly to the feeling that he was useful. The British Conservatives only
became really angry with him when, as in 1942, he was in effect turning
his non-violence against a different conqueror.
- George Orwell, Reflections of Gandhi
And yes, both men had millions of angry people standing behind them with knives and clubs, whether they personally approved or not. The British could not afford to "handle" their foreign colony, so they divided it and backed off
(the division of unified British territories, and the unification of divided ones is telling - the British never intended to be away for long; they were going to get their finances together, and come back to "save" these territories from the strife the British themselves had caused. it wasn't until 1956 that the US and USSR kindly informed the British that their empire was over, did the plan get abandoned - leaving all those newly independent nations to deal with the carnage the British had left them with - including Israel and Palestine.)
Martin Luther King, on hte other hand, was an actual activist, a firebrand who would light people up and get them moving. And that movement was not under his control, once the fire was lit; most American blacks refrained from violence not because of King, but because they're like any other person in the world, and violence is usually a last resort anyway. But then you have, yes, Malcom X, and Stokely Carmichael who understood liberation will not come from asking nicely - if the oppressor were swayed by pleas for liberty, surely it would have happened.
In the end, both King and Gandhi were just figureheads on warships. Both men, whether they approved or not (one must assume they did not) were standing in front of a larger body of angry people very willing to assert their liberty by any means necessary.
The British, unable to afford such a conflict, skedaddled. The Americans, similarly unwilling (though with a different perspective, as it wasn't happening in a colony) acquiesced - by as small amount as possible.
The Israelis are no more swayed by clasped hands and pleading than Morocco, Turkey, or Russia are. Feither from the people they stand on nor the rest of the world.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)that he had made that speech precisely to frighten whites into supporting King. A bit like the Communists who knew they had no shot at revolution but frightened the rich into supporting FDR.
This is not to suggest that the Palestinians would not benefit from such a figure or that they shouldn't become much better at understanding and manipulating western opinion, as they can and should do both of those things.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Mosby
(16,319 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)What did Iraq ever do to America?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Wouldnt the occupied West Bank be a more accurate term?
Anyway, if this poll about the opinions of Palestinians is actually somewhat accurate, it actually shows that the Palestinians have a much more peaceful mindset. I can imagine that there was a majority of Israelis that supported operation Protective Edge, which was much more an attack on civilians and their society than than rockets fired from Gaza ever could be.
I think both forms of aggression are wrong, but lets put things into perspective.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Shooting rockets at civilians is peaceful?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Those that support Israels rampage in Gaza are supporting the greater evil.
shenmue
(38,506 posts)You wouldn't say that if it were your house.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I can get you more examples. There's no shortage.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)If they were the only ones killing civilians in this conflict, they would be the only bad guy. The problem is that only a small fraction of the killings were done by Hamas. Actually, its the IDF that kills thousands of civilians and flattens whole neighbourhoods. Its difficult to see any equivalence between Hamas and the IDF, because one is so much the bigger killer.
There are some very depressing pictures in this thread that proves my point. Some granny in Sderot having unexpected demolition work done to her kitchen just cant compare.
One of the reasons why Im not pro-Israel is because I refuse to condemn the bad things done by one side and completely overlook the bad things done by the other.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)justify the slaughter of 500 children confined to a prison...... and pretend it means nothing.
What percentage of Israelis polled support killing 500 children using long range artillery and fighter jet dropped bombs?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)A good insight into where you are coming from though certainly.
Response to oberliner (Reply #10)
Post removed
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)a link:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-22310544
from the article:
The Israeli military says it is to stop using artillery shells with white phosphorus to create smokescreens on the battlefield.
It says shells will be replaced with types based completely on gas, which will create the same effect.
Rights groups condemned Israel's use of white phosphorus during the Gaza conflict because of its severely harmful effects on civilians.
International law restricts the use of white phosphorus during war.
The Israelis admitted to using it. This is not a Palestinian claim that can be dismissed by apologists.
also from the article:
"A protocol to the 1980 Convention on Conventional Weapons bans the use of white phosphorus as an incendiary weapon against civilian populations or in air attacks against enemy forces in civilian areas."
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Lemme guess, you saw this story on Facebook, like every other rightwing website you've linked to.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Then we can see what kind of political parties most of them would vote for.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)"Hopefully" has been going on for Palestinians for 50 years...Israel's you support is pretty clear, take over land bit by bit then make it impossible to have a Palestine.
As Obama says, time to put the pretending to an end. No more pretending.
500 children slaughtered by any nation with impunity and over powering force is criminal, and it will not be forgotten, as much as some hopefully think it will be.
All the Palestinians are saying is "let my people go".
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)It's a footnote in the Israeli political perspective, but it is the primary feature of the Palestinian one.
Good example of the dynamic between master and slave; the master just assumes the slaves are a feature of nature, not really worth notice. The slaves however, their lives revolve around their lack of liberty and rulership by the master.
MFM008
(19,816 posts)is going to guarantee continued conflict. Israel has done nothing since last summer and now Palestinians have no hope, especially after this election. We still don't know how any charges against Netenyahu and his government from the ICC will play out. Nothing but bad news ahead.