Israeli soldiers are provoking Palestinians to shoot them with live ammo

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/blogs/politics/16508--israeli-soldiers-are-provoking-palestinians-to-shoot-them-with-live-ammo

The Israeli army is using live ammunition against unarmed Palestinian stone-throwers in the Occupied West Bank, deliberately provoking confrontations in order to open fire on protesters.

This is the conclusion of Israeli human rights NGO B'Tselem, in a new press release detailing "a dramatic rise in Israeli security forces' use of live 0.22 inch calibre bullets" in recent months.

According to the NGO, "the firing of this ammunition" by Israeli occupation forces at Palestinian civilians "is an almost weekly occurrence" at "protests and clashes." Most of the injured have been "young Palestinians, including minors", as well as "one Palestinian woman, at least three photographers, and a foreign national" in the last two months.

Disturbingly, B'Tselem says it has documented "several cases" when Israeli soldiers "intentionally engaged with stone-throwers in order to fire 0.22 bullets at them."

Shooting at children is never the answer, but for some monsters they will do anything to protect their corrupt empire.

Some will shoot kids. Some will lie for the shooters. Some will cheer it on and blame the Palestinians.

All of them are disgusting examples of humanity.

[oberliner]

1. "unarmed Palestinian stone-throwers"

Hopefully people see the irony of that phrase.

But I'm glad the aptly named Ben White is on the case.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

2. Does the IDF provoking then shooting kids make you feel all warm inside, ober?

Or is it the fault of somebody else?

[King_David]

3. It would be good to hear what the Palestinians think about these issues

Instead of all these white Western and armchair militants , a lots of whom have actually never even been there .....

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

7. I would expect more from your posts, dave, but I have become used to the constant

exclusionary clubhouse rhetoric.

Everybody at DU has the right to opine, dave, whether you can handle it or not.

[oberliner]

5. Who provoked the Palestinians to throw the rocks that killed Asher and Yonatan Palmer?

I wonder if you would like to comment on that.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

8. Why don't you tell us. Were they the sames ones who provked the IDF to shoot

Muhammad Abu Thahr and Nadim Nuwara?

[shira]

9. You won't get an answer to that. Only deflection. You know that. n/t

[shira]

4. Ben White? Gotta love that POS. He unabashedly supports terror attacks....

....against Israeli (Jewish) civilians, waxing poetic about the bloodshed and sweat of martyrs trying to liberate Palestine.

That could've been a direct quote from a Hamas spokesperson about martyred terrorists trying to defeat and ultimately destroy Israel via genocide.

[oberliner]

6. The wealthy white British guys have all the answers

Who could possibly relate more to the conflict than Ben White?

I can think of no person whose insights would be more valuable.

I mean, he's even written a book about it.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

10. Shira, that could have been written by Menachem Begin during his leadership of ther terrorist group

Irgun. Sure, Palestine would have been changed to Israel and there probably would have been no mention of Palestinians at all. There might have been a small snippit that the British were responsible for dying in any Irgun attack, but that is the quintessential Israeli terrorist perspective.

Now back to Ben White.

What part of his article in the OP is a lie? Please, be specific and cite examples.

[shira]

11. LoL. The quality of your posts is going down by the hour....

I didn't think they could get much worse.

What part of his article in the OP is a lie? Please, be specific and cite examples.

First sentence. How is it possible to be an unarmed rock-thrower?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

12. You didn't read the article, did you.

In one instance, which was documented, the soldiers initiated action to provoke Palestinian youths into throwing stones, so that they could respond with 0.22 fire. In one documented case, soldiers took action designed to provoke youths to throw stones, ultimately enabling the soldiers to respond with gunfire, wounding the youths.

But this is an acknowledgement of yours, and thanks.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=93428

I have a big problem with IDF soldiers shooting at Palestinian adults or children unprovoked. I know there's evidence of that.

So it seems from the article that the Palestinians are being goaded into it by the Israelis. They really shouldn't let their emotions get the best of them, but since you have admitted that the IDF shoots at Palestinians unprovoked then it really is not a stretch to see that they are provoking these actions as well.

What happened to the pretense of rubber bullets anyway? Is the IDF just showing its true nature?

[shira]

13. More BS. You just can't stop, can you?

1. I pointed out a lie from Ben White in the very first sentence. So I answered you and you just ignored it, moved on.

2. I acknowledge individual IDF soldiers doing illegal shit, while OTOH you charge the entire IDF with malicious intent. Talk about broad-brushing. Do you do that WRT any other western military? They all have their bad apples. Doesn't mean every western military is evil.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

14. So, again it appears that you didn't comprehend the article or what B'Tselem has alleged.

In one instance, which was documented, the soldiers initiated action to provoke Palestinian youths into throwing stones, so that they could respond with 0.22 fire. In one documented case, soldiers took action designed to provoke youths to throw stones, ultimately enabling the soldiers to respond with gunfire, wounding the youths.

Are you able to read that now that I have bolded the section, shira?

Provocation. Now I also mentioned that the youths should have been smarter to not fall for it, but why would these soldiers be provoking a fight in the first place in order to use live fire?

[shira]

15. First, where can we find these documented cases proving soldiers provoke youths....

....to throw stones? I want to see evidence of that INTENT.

Find it.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

16. And now are you back to the "Palestinians did it to themselves defense" of Nakba day?

No amount of documentation short of video will please you, and even then you will deny it to the last, but please keep up the pretense of wanting undeniable proof in triplicate.


http://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20150118_use_of_live_ammunition_in_wb

On 9 December, the military commander in the West Bank, Brig. Gen. Tamir Yadai, confirmed that the military had adopted a policy of firing live ammunition at stone-throwers. He stated this in a meeting with settlers from Halamish, who claimed that the decline in security on West Bank roads demonstrates that the military had abandoned them and was compromising their safety. Israeli internet news site NRG published a recording of the meeting, in which Yadai is heard saying (in Hebrew): “I’m won’t say we changed the open-fire regulations, but we’ve taken a slightly [pause] tougher approach with people around here. In places where we used to fire tear-gas or rubber[-coated metal bullets], we now fire Ruger bullets and sometimes live bullets. If I remember the figures correctly, we’re at around 25 people hit here in the last three weeks. That’s a relatively high figure on any scale.” Yadai's statement crowd control weapons had been replaced by live fire raises serious concerns that live ammunition is being fired without appropriate justification. Live fire was already permitted, and indeed used, in cases of mortal danger. It is also extremely worrying to hear the commander of the military forces in the West Bank boasting of a “relatively high figure” of people injured by live bullets, which are supposed to be used only in self-defense in cases of mortal danger, when there is no appropriate alternative, and are certainly not meant to be used for deterrence or punitively.

[shira]

17. Another BS accusation. It doesn't stop.

Where do you get that I'm saying Palestinians did it to themselves?

Find it or Fold.

I showed you dozens of videos about Palestinian child victims of their authority figures, and you denied all of them.

I'm simply asking for proof of soldiers' intent to provoke kids into throwing stones. Anything short of proof of intent is baseless.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

18. Oh, poor you. Anything that is documented is just a lie to you.

I would go with B'Tselem over Gallstone Institute any day. But that is just me.

[shira]

19. Documented where? Let's see it. I want to see proof of soldier's intent....

B'tselem makes the claim.

I want to see where they prove that. I'll accept what they say if they can prove intent.

[azurnoir]

20. Right here from B'tselem

In recent weeks, B’Tselem has documented the use of 0.22 bullets in clashes in various locations in the northern West Bank. In these instances shots were fired contrary to the strict open-fire regulations that, as a rule, prohibit live fire against stone-throwers. The only exception to this rule cited in the regulations is immediate, mortal danger. Moreover, in several cases, the soldiers intentionally engaged with stone-throwers in order to fire 0.22 bullets at them. In one instance, which was documented, the soldiers initiated action to provoke Palestinian youths into throwing stones, so that they could respond with 0.22 fire. In one documented case, soldiers took action designed to provoke youths to throw stones, ultimately enabling the soldiers to respond with gunfire, wounding the youths. In another case, a sniper armed with a Ruger rifle waited for a procession of demonstrators even before any stone was thrown.

The most striking of these incidents occurred in the village of a-Nabi Saleh on 5 December 2014. At the end of the weekly demonstration, a handful of village youths threw stones at soldiers. The military had stationed a sniper armed with a Ruger rifle together with a captain in an open area some distance from the village homes. The youths withdrew to a distance some 140 meters away, beyond the effective range of 0.22 bullets, thereby essentially ending the confrontation. Yet, about half an hour later, the captain and sniper walked some 200 meters into the built-up part of the village, for no apparent reason other than provoking the youths into renewing the stone-throwing, as indeed then transpired. The sniper responded by shooting at a Palestinian youth, who was hit in the thigh. The youth, whose injury was termed light, was taken to hospital in Ramallah. At no point were the troops in mortal danger and in any case, the confrontation was intentionally renewed by the soldiers’ who entered the village, apparently on orders from above.

On 9 December, the military commander in the West Bank, Brig. Gen. Tamir Yadai, confirmed that the military had adopted a policy of firing live ammunition at stone-throwers. He stated this in a meeting with settlers from Halamish, who claimed that the decline in security on West Bank roads demonstrates that the military had abandoned them and was compromising their safety. Israeli internet news site NRG published a recording of the meeting, in which Yadai is heard saying (in Hebrew): “I’m won’t say we changed the open-fire regulations, but we’ve taken a slightly [pause] tougher approach with people around here. In places where we used to fire tear-gas or rubber[-coated metal bullets], we now fire Ruger bullets and sometimes live bullets. If I remember the figures correctly, we’re at around 25 people hit here in the last three weeks. That’s a relatively high figure on any scale.” Yadai's statement crowd control weapons had been replaced by live fire raises serious concerns that live ammunition is being fired without appropriate justification. Live fire was already permitted, and indeed used, in cases of mortal danger. It is also extremely worrying to hear the commander of the military forces in the West Bank boasting of a “relatively high figure” of people injured by live bullets, which are supposed to be used only in self-defense in cases of mortal danger, when there is no appropriate alternative, and are certainly not meant to be used for deterrence or punitively.

http://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20150118_use_of_live_ammunition_in_wb

[shira]

21. Where's the proof of intent to provoke a confrontation?

Yet, about half an hour later, the captain and sniper walked some 200 meters into the built-up part of the village, for no apparent reason other than provoking the youths into renewing the stone-throwing, as indeed then transpired. The sniper responded by shooting at a Palestinian youth, who was hit in the thigh.

Where's the interview with this captain and sniper, to explain what happened? Why would they just up and walk into a a shower of rocks thrown at them? Those rocks have killed other IDF soldiers in the past.

There's no proof of intent.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

22. Just like there was no proof of the Nakba day murders?

[shira]

23. Another deflection. Seems u just can't stop doing that. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

24. Remember, shira, when some were adamant

that the Palestinians shot their own, were acting and hadn't been shot/killed or they were not the same dead kids?

You were on that side, shira, so it's not surprising that you always seem to gravitate to it.

And it is very much relevant to the discussion as it shows your bent.

[shira]

25. Remember, some here adamantly refuse to acknowledge how Palestinian kids....

....are being victimized by authority figures from Hamas, the PA, and UN. Bad, evil types who want to use them as hate-filled child militants. Which is a war crime, BTW.

These characters disingenously claim it's racist to bring any such thing up, as it broad-brushes Palestinians. Even though the ones perpetrating these crimes are Hamas, the PA, and UN (who are not the Palestinian people).

The very same jokers who claim to be pro-P, who care about kids, but only if Israel can somehow be blamed. They yawn when Hamas, the PA and UN are the perpetrators of Evil against these kids.

Sound familiar?