Thousands pray in Aqsa for 1st time in months

[Jefferson23]

(MaanImages)

JERUSALEM (Ma'an) -- Thousands of Palestinians were able to conduct Friday prayers for the first time in months in the Al-Aqsa mosque after Israel lifted age restrictions that have kept most worshipers out for months and aggravated tensions across Jerusalem.

The courtyards of the Al-Aqsa mosque were filled with men, women, teenagers, and children as hundreds of families arrived at the mosque for prayer, celebrating their right to worship at the compound after months of frequent restrictions against all but the elderly.

The general director of the Jerusalem endowment, Sheikh Azzam al-Khatib, said that the number of worshipers reached between 35-40,000, despite the fact that Israeli security guards staffing the entrances still held the ID cards of hundreds who entered.

Locals told Ma'an that many worshipers received parking ticket fines of 100-250 shekels ($26-66) as they left the courtyard after prayers.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=739959

[oberliner]

1. "The courtyards of the Al-Aqsa mosque were filled with men, women, teenagers, and children..."

None of them Jews since Jewish people are not allowed to pray at the holiest site in Judaism because it is deemed "offensive" to Muslims for them to do so.

[Jefferson23]

3. Palestinian ingrates, I'm telling ya. Decades of occupation and they have great weather..what

is their problem?

[King_David]

4. Prior to 1967

This part of Jerusalem was never really not "occupied "

[Scootaloo]

5. Technically, occupied since 1917

[shaayecanaan]

6. actually, because it is deemed offensive to Jews for them to do so

[Scootaloo]

7. Jews also don't tend to pray at mosques on fridays n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

8. It must be tough...

That Israel is building a collosal temple within a stones throw of the mosque complex...

That Israel has destroyed how many mosques?...

That Israel gobbled up another people's land...

That Israel kills Palestinians indescriminantly...

That Israel and their bootlicking supporters now feel the need to insert themselves into anothers peoples religion in order to take a very real part of theur worship.

Get over it, ober, the temple has been gone for a long time. Build it elsewhere and act like fucking adults.

[King_David]

9. LOL

Israel and their bootlicking supporters now feel the need to insert themselves into anothers peoples religion in order to take a very real part of theur worship.

Most of us Jews and Muslims are actually involved in this conflict and have family and friends in Israel / Palestine.

But lots of other people "feel the need to insert themselves into anothers peoples"
Struggle.


Agree with you 100%

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

10. Yes, king it must be tough for some

that the perpetrators / supporters of apartheid aren't being cheered on in their quest to take the Al Asqa mosque by force.

It must also be tough for the hyper hipocrites aka supporters of Israel apartheid that others don't mind their own business as Israel repeatedly rapes another culture in its quest to erase them.

But I guess that things are tough all over...

[oberliner]

11. How about just letting Jews pray at the Temple Mount

No setting foot in any mosque.

Does that not seem reasonable?

[azurnoir]

12. How often did Jews pray at Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount during the Ottoman/British period

was it often? is the restriction something new? I'm not speaking of the Kotel and no I'm not asking about the period when Jordan ruled East Jerusalem that history is known and not germane to what I am asking you

[oberliner]

13. No idea

I'm just saying - why not let them pray there now?

I don't see why quiet, respectful prayer, not inside any mosque is so problematic to the point that it needs to be banned.

If it's just a small number of Jews who wish to do so then that seems very easily accommodated.

[azurnoir]

25. Really you don't know? Really?

I think this has been pretty um long standing, the sign says Israel but I'll wager the law predates modern Israel

[King_David]

30. That's the chief rabbinate ... So? Who cares?

Not all Jews believe that.

If it's a free country Jews should not be forbidden to pray in the Temple Mount if they so desire.

It's a Jewish site and not inside any of the 2 mosques on the mount.

[shaayecanaan]

36. Religious Jews who dont care what the Torah says?

Its an interesting concept.

[oberliner]

38. They don't care what an Orthodox Jewish rabbi's interpretation of the Torah is

Welcome to the modern age of Judaism.

[King_David]

45. Most Jews are secular

[shaayecanaan]

48. secular jews with an overriding desire to pray

on the temple mount? an even more interesting concept.

[King_David]

54. And that's your business because?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

59. They're called colonists.

They're very religious when it comes to theft.

[azurnoir]

44. well I understand there is some varience in adherence to Halachic laws

so what do Reform Rabbi's say about this ?

[sabbat hunter]

61. many Muslims consider

all of the temple mount a mosque. I have posted links in other threads about this before. The consider the entire temple mount an open air mosque, and it is often used as such when the Al-Asqa mosque itself is filled.


I do believe that it would be spectacular if the Jordanian Waqf that governs the temple mount and the Israeli government could come up with an agreement to have jews pray there in a small section, with no structures built, similar to arrangements at other shared holy sites (like the tombs of the patriarchs)

But I think there is about much chance of that as there is of me sprouting wings tonight while I sleep and using them to fly to florida.


As for the question, did jews pray on the temple mount during ottoman times or earlier times during Muslim rule. There was a synagogue built on the Temple Mount during the time of the Umayyad dynasty. During the Fatimid the synagogue was rebuilt and used until 1015. There are writings in hebrew from about 1000 years ago on the inside of the now sealed Golden gate that appear to confirm this (along with documents from the various dynasties)
During the Crusader period, Maimonides wrote that he visited the temple mount and prayed there.

When Saladin retook Jerusalem, he allowed Jews to return to Jerusalem and pray on the Temple Mount.

During the 1500- 1800's for the most part Jews were forbidden to pray on the Temple mount by the Ottoman emperors, but there were interludes during that time in which they were allowed.

In particular Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent forbade jews to pray on the Temple Mount, but he did order that a plaza be built at the foot of the wailing wall for jews to pray at and he encouraged jews from Europe to migrate to Jerusalem. Suleiman issued a royal decree saying that jews would forever be allowed to pray at the western wall, but would not be allowed to do so on the Temple Mount itself.

During the late 1500's Jews were again allowed on the Temple Mount, on the south and east sides of it.

It was around this time that leading Rabbi's declared that Jews should not go on the temple mount due to them being ritually impure and not knowing where the holy of holies was located (thought to be in the Dome of the rock, but that is unclear).

After the Crimea war, all religions were allowed again on the temple mount, as that was part of the peace treaty that Great Britain demanded. Sir Moses Montefiore and Baron Edmond de Rothschild two prominent British Jews were known to have visited the site. Orthodox Rabbis again said that jews should not enter it, but many jews, particularly secular ones, ignored that ruling and went any way.
That pretty much stood as the rule of law until Jordan conquered the old city and forced all jews to leave.

After Israel conquered the old city in 1967, initially General Dayan and Rabbi Shlomo Goren said jews would be allowed back on the temple mount. Rabbi Goren even set up an office and a synagogue on the temple Mount. But he was ordered to leave by Gen. Dayan.
The Israeli government then declared that all religions could go up on to the Temple Mount, but that only Muslims were allowed to pray there, in agreement worked out with the Waqf.
The Chief rabbis of Israel declared then (and the vast majority still to this day) say that jews should not even go on to the temple mount due to being ritually impure, and certainly should not pray there.


So there is the history of the Temple Mount. For most of its existence it was used by jews to pray, but it was always considered to be not a place jews should go due to impurity, and muslim sentiments over what the mount represents to them.

[oberliner]

40. Orthodox Judaism has a long ways to go

The Chief Rabbinate don't even recognize converts as Jews.

Thankfully, other observant Jews are much less rigid about that sort of thing.

[azurnoir]

43. My how times change once not long ago these folks like Moshe Feiglin, Yehuda Glick, ect

were referred to as 'nutters' all around by both sides here, now suddenly they're just innocent Jews wishing to pray on the Haram al Sharif/Temple Mount , how does one account for this?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

46. Hipocrisy? A new set of talking points?

[Israeli]

49. The Temple Mount is a powder keg, and arsonists have the upper hand

This is no accidental fire. This was (and still is) an arson job. But who are the suspects?

Jerusalem is up in arms again. As violence spreads from the capital to other parts of Israel, it seems the question isn’t so much whether the country is teetering on the brink of an intifada, but how the upsurge should be characterized.

Some are calling it “the Firecracker Intifada,” in honor of the firecrackers that Palestinian protesters are hurling at the police. Others are going simply with “the third intifada,” though many disagree with that moniker. In any case, the term “Silent Intifada,” previously used to describe the violence in Jerusalem, hardly seems appropriate now.

At the center of this craziness stands the Temple Mount, or Haram al-Sharif, as it is known to Muslims. The Temple Mount is the holiest site for Judaism and the third holiest for Islam. It’s one of the most sensitive religious sites in the world — a massive powder keg, if you will.

Now that this powder keg looks to be on the verge of exploding, note that this was no accidental fire. This was (and still is) an arson job.

The immediate suspects, as many observers have pointed out, are the Israeli right-wing politicians challenging the decades-old status quo on the Temple Mount, over which the Muslim Waqf trust has retained religious control since Israel took over East Jerusalem in 1967. The right-wingers are insisting that Jews be allowed to pray there; they include Knesset members like Likud’s Miri Regev and Moshe Feiglin.

These two, Housing Minister Uri Ariel and others have been key to the incredible resurgence of the Jewish Temple Mount movement in recent years, a resurgence that led to rumors that Israel sought to change the delicate status quo.

Last week Feiglin visited the site yet again, despite warnings by the police. Others like another Likud MK, Tzipi Hotovely, expressed wishes to follow suit despite charges they were fanning the flames.

Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman and Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon admonished them; in an interview with Channel 10, Ya’alon admitted that the current violence had at least been partly stoked by ministers and MKs who defiantly visited the Temple Mount.

If Lieberman and Ya’alon have to tell you you’ve gone too far, you can be pretty sure you’ve gone too far.

It’s not for nothing that Lieberman and Ya’alon, not to mention Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, President Reuven Rivlin and much of Israel’s security apparatus, appear so agitated over the mount these days.

Over the years, maintaining the status quo there by prohibiting Jewish prayer was critical to preventing an all-out religious war. The status quo wasn’t perfect by any means, but it allowed a delicate balance between the national and the religious.

That balance is now eroding fast.

Tension since 1929

The history of the Temple Mount is, of course, fraught with conflict. For many years, extremists — both Jews and Arabs — have battled over, or against the backdrop of, this tempestuous holy site.

In 1929, 133 Jews were killed by Arabs partly motivated by rumors of a planned Jewish takeover of the mount. In 1996, riots broke out there following Netanyahu’s decision to open the Western Wall tunnels — a decision that again led to rumors of an imminent threat to Islamic control of the site. Seventeen Israeli soldiers and more than 100 Palestinians died, and scores were wounded.

In the 1980s, the Jewish underground, a terrorist organization formed by members of the right-wing movement Gush Emunim, almost blew up the mosques on the mount, including the Dome of the Rock. The idea was to further a messianic redemption that would culminate with the construction of a Third Temple.

In September 2000, Ariel Sharon (then opposition leader) made a high-profile visit to the mount. The day after, riots broke out there following Friday prayers, launching the second intifada.

But now, at the outset of what may or may not be a third intifada, something is different. It’s not the violence as much as the way the events are being framed.

For the most part, the movement to regain Jewish control of the Temple Mount has been limited to extremists. Sharon’s 2000 visit, for example, was seen as a dangerous provocation. Until a few years ago, any talk of change at the Temple Mount was a surefire sign of religious madness, the stuff of eccentrics and the certifiably insane.

Not anymore. These days there appears to be a wider acceptance for a Jewish Temple Mount, tracking Israel’s right-wing shift and the erosion of its resistance to messianic rhetoric.

The movement, still a minority movement, has gained mainstream recognition in recent years and won influential supporters in the Knesset. Regev, chairwoman of the Knesset Interior Committee, has chaired no fewer than 15 debates on the subject in the past year alone, hounding police officials for their “cowardly” response to the harassment of Jewish visitors to the mount.

Outlandish no more

Two weeks ago, hours before right-wing activist Yehuda Glick was shot by East Jerusalemite Mutaz Hijazi, Regev reminisced how she initially thought the Temple Mount movement was “outlandish” — before she was ultimately convinced.

Glick, now in recovery, was, as my colleague Anshel Pfeffer has pointed out, key to the mainstreaming of the Temple Mount movement. An affable, red-bearded oddity, Glick — who went on a 53-day hunger strike last year after being barred from the mount — often befriended ideological rivals and depicted his struggle as a pure freedom-of-religion issue. By portraying the issue as a civil-rights debate, he played a key role in the massive PR resurgence of the Temple Mount movement.

Glick’s affability aside, the proliferation of Israeli visits to the mount and the growing conversation about the site — much aided by opportunistic Hamas propaganda — helped increase tensions and led to the formation of local groups like al-Murabitun, self-proclaimed guardians of the site against the rumored “Jewish takeover.” The clashes that followed led to the violence we’re seeing now.

The vast majority of Israelis and Palestinians, of course, don’t want a religious war. Israel’s foremost religious authorities, among them Sephardi Chief Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef, have reiterated their stance against Jewish visits to the mount. The vast majority of Israelis have never visited the place and probably have no intention of doing so. Most Palestinians, meanwhile, have more pressing material concerns.

Unfortunately for those people, it seems there are plenty of arsonists among us. And right now they seem to be enjoying the upper hand.

Source: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.626094

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

21. It's time to move on, ober.

Isreal should build a new temple someplace else and stop trying to take what doesn't belong to it.

It's that simple.

[oberliner]

35. Not talking about Israel - talking about Jews

Jews of any nationality ought to be able to pray there.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

39. Don't get a hernia moving those goal posts.

Any nationality does not have the right to alter a cultural or a house if worship simply because it whines about it.

Like I have said. Grow up.

[oberliner]

41. Jews should be allowed to pray at the Temple Mount

That's the only argument I am making. It is considered a holy site in Judaism and if a Jew wants to pray there (not in any house of worship and not in any way that is disrespecting of anyone else) then they should be allowed to do so.

I'm not understanding why anyone (other than religious fundamentalists) would think otherwise.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

42. Palestinians should be allowed

the right of return.

That is a more real and pertinent situation.

And yet Israeli fundamentalists are the ones pushing to take the Al Asqa grounds to build a temple there.

Really, ober, Israel takes whatever it wants from the Palestinians while waving their private parts at the world. Now the same culprits want to whine to the world that the evil muslims are victimizing them by not letting them pray on Al Asqa mount.

[King_David]

14. The irony of your own words ,

feel the need to insert themselves into anothers peoples

Struggle.


Which is exactly what all the armchair wannabes Palestinian western / Irish / Swedish/ European and USA /and Some on DU "activists" have done for various reasons.

[Jefferson23]

15. Stay out of it, that's the same message Bibi sings...you're not one of us.

Do not second guess me, Obama. Ignore that American tax dollars
helps to fund it too.

Pathetic reasoning.

[King_David]

16. No I don't quite think that's it, at all.

But it has become a theme of yours here.

Explain what you mean.

Those words I quoted were not mine btw.

[Jefferson23]

17. It's not my theme, it's yours..your words, whether you recognize it or not

is not my problem.

[King_David]

18. Actually being an ardent supporter of the Democratic Party, I support Joe Biden's take far more.

Joe Biden: Bibi and I are 'still buddies'

(CNN) -- Vice President Joe Biden stressed Monday that he and Benjamin Netanyahu are "still buddies" during remarks to the Jewish Federations of North America, less than two weeks after a senior Obama administration official was quoted calling the Israeli prime minister "chickens---"

"You better damn well report to Bibi that we're still buddies," Biden said at the top of his remarks, speaking specifically to Israeli ambassador Ron Dermer, who was in the audience. ("Bibi" is a nickname for Netanyahu.)

"I signed a picture for Bibi a long time ago—I have a bad habit of, no one ever doubts I mean what I say, sometimes I say all that I mean, though—and I signed a picture a long time for Bibi," Biden continued. "He's been a friend for over 30 years. I said 'Bibi I don't agree with a damn thing you say but I love you.'"

Joe Biden: 'I'm not changing'

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"My father pointed out to me I did not need to be a Jew to be a Zionist, for I am. Israel is essential for security of Jews worldwide," he said. "And a state of Palestine. Each enjoin security, self-determination, and mutual recognition."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/113487206

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Glad to explain what our party believes when it comes to Israel, I am completely in agreement too .

[Jefferson23]

19. What do you mean, far more? You seem to have about as much understanding of

Obama and his foreign policy as Mitch McConnell.

What makes you believe Biden and Obama are not on the same page about Iran
and Bibi?

[King_David]

20. I do not support Bibi at all,

I agree with all Biden had to say there.

Biden called himself a Zionist. People in this group have called Zionism white supremism ( as thy do in extremist right wing groups )

[Jefferson23]

22. Your response has nothing to do with my question. I have news for you, Biden

supports Obama on Iran, period.

[King_David]

26. I have news for you

You can read ALL about what Biden believed when it comes to Israel and half the people in this group would be completely in sync with those views.

[Jefferson23]

27. Again, that has no relevance to what I asked you..none. I can see why it's difficult

for you to respond directly.

[King_David]

28. .

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

23. It's everbody's business, king.

It's not just pretend royalty to make that descision.

[King_David]

24. Oh according to your post ....

About inserting self into "another peoples"

Nvm

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

29. Yes, I'm glad I could educated you

once again.

The Israelis need to find another place for their temple. It's Al Asqa now.

[King_David]

31. No actually your wrong

And the people involved ie: Jews and Muslims will sort it out without other people inserting themselves in another people's tiff.

It has nothing to do with anyone else on the outside.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

32. Actually abybody that intends to push

their way into another peoples place of worship are inherently questionable in motive.

Your (not you're) mindset would be at home in the old south. "Leave those poor good ole boys alone." It's nobody's business but ours in how we live our lives and where we burn a cross or two.

No. It is everybody's budiness to point out the wrong that others do in the name of colonization.

[Jefferson23]

33. He wants no one involved that screws it up for Israel, like the international courts. n/t

[King_David]

34. It's obvious to all what this is all about and why it's everyone's business

But it's got nothing to do with colonization.

Just about everyones business is The Jewish State . Nobody is interested in anywhere else .

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

37. Oh, what utter and dubious nonsense.

"Stay out of our way. Mind your own budiness. You're not involved."

All those expressions are the refuge of the scounderal.

[King_David]

47. Umm ok

Whatever that means..

Sure

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

52. And its back to "I dunno what that means" dave.

One trick pony.

[Shaktimaan]

50. What temple?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

53. Exactly. It's Al Asqa mount.

[Shaktimaan]

55. Right.

It's also the Temple Mount though.
What I was asking was irt your comment about the Jews "having to build their temple somewhere else."

No one is attempting to build a temple there. They are lobbying for the right to pray there. Arguing that they should be denied access to their religious site because it will eventually lead to them destroying al aqsa and erecting their own temple is terrible reasoning. Not to mention extremely illiberal.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

56. Riigghht...

I mentioned Israelis and not Jews.

Please stop trying to conflate the two.

Bad form that.

[Shaktimaan]

57. My mistake.

So what exactly is an "Israeli temple" in that case?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

58. Yes, your mistake.

Intentional mistake...

[Shaktimaan]

60. Intentional?

More like the only rational assumption. Aside from the fact that no one is trying to build a temple there, you are drawing a meaningless distinction here by differentiating Israeli and Jewish. What you really mean is Israeli Jews, of course.


Unless you can describe what exactly is an "Israeli temple"?

You did say "Israelis" should build "their" temple somewhere else, right? So what is an Israeli temple?

[Jefferson23]

2. Kerry Is Optimistic After Meeting Over Holy Site in Jerusalem

AMMAN, Jordan — Secretary of State John Kerry said on Thursday that Jordan, Israel and the Palestinians were committed to taking “concrete steps” to ease strife over a volatile holy site in the Old City of Jerusalem.

Speaking at a news conference after a summit meeting here with King Abdullah II of Jordan and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel, and after a separate meeting in Amman with President Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian Authority, Mr. Kerry refused to elaborate on the nature of the steps. But he said that Mr. Netanyahu had shown his concern by coming to Jordan and that Mr. Abbas had pledged to prevent incitement to violence and to try to change the climate.

“The proof will not be in the words but in the actions,” Mr. Kerry added.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/14/world/middleeast/kerry-is-optimistic-after-meeting-over-holy-site-in-jerusalem.html?src=un&feedurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjson8.nytimes.com%2Fpages%2Fworld%2Fmiddleeast%2Findex.jsonp

[MFM008]

51. you can pray anywhere to anything

why does it have to be on a SPOT that someone who doesnt know anything, says or doesnt say, something did or did not happen on it. And these are the people the world puts their hopes of peace in.

banghead: :

[oberliner]

62. It's a little strange

When you step back and look at it.