Israeli historian wants ‘to cease’ being a Jew

[shira]

A controversial Israeli historian has declared his wish to cease considering himself a Jew, expressing disgust at the “ethnocentricity” which he feels is the prevailing worldview among many Israelis In an opinion piece published in the Guardian on Friday – which is an extract from his new BOOK, How I Stopped Being a Jew — Prof. Shlomo Sand of Tel Aviv University says he has been “assimilated by law into a fictitious ethnos of persecutors and their supporters.”

“I wish to resign and cease considering myself a Jew,” he writes.

Sand explains that Israel is “one of the most racist societies in the western world” due to its strict characterization as a Jewish state. “Racism is present to some degree everywhere, but in Israel it exists deep within the spirit of the laws,” he says. He expresses his disillusionment with Israel dues to its CONTINUED occupation of the Palestinian territories, which he says “is leading us on the road to hell.”

Despite his scathing critique of Israel, Sand acknowledges that he is also deeply tied to the nation. “The language in which I speak, write and dream is overwhelmingly Hebrew,” he says. “When I am far from Israel, I see my street corner in Tel Aviv and look forward to the moment I can return to it…when I visit the teeming Paris bookstores, what comes to my mind is the Hebrew BOOK week organized each year in Israel.” Sand states his belief that the ethnic differences which have divided the world for millennia will become insignificant as the world moves more and more towards globalization. “The cultural distance between my great grandson and me will be as great or greater than that separating me from my own great grandfather,” he hypothesizes.

The Tel Aviv lecturer has long been the subject of controversy. His 2008 book “The Invention of the Jewish People” claimed that the Jews were not a nation expelled from its homeland but a religion of converts spread throughout the world. The Jewish people as an ethnic group, he asserted, was a myth created in Jewish intellectuals in the 19th century. In a 2009 sequel, “The Invention of the Land of Israel,” Sand similarly deconstructs the Jews’ historical right to that land.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-historian-wants-to-cease-being-a-jew/#ixzz3Fq4bg0mp

[oberliner]

1. Looking to sell a new book

He knows how to get attention from certain circles, that's for sure.

Free PR in sources ranging from the Times of Israel to The Guardian.

It's quite a little cottage industry.

[King_David]

2. Go for it,

What with the big fuss and drama?

Who is stopping you?

He sure is obsessed with Jews and Jewish people ,I guess he now will find other topics for his book ?

[Israeli]

3. In his own words ....

http://tlv1.fm/arts-culture/the-tel-aviv-review/2014/10/11/how-shlomo-sand-stopped-being-a-jew/

Also .....

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/10/shlomo-sand-i-wish-to-cease-considering-myself-a-jew

Anyone reading here that wants to understand the Israeli post zionist movement should read everything he has written .

Example :
http://972mag.com/the-fantasized-homeland-review-of-the-invention-of-the-land-of-israel/46048/

oberliner.....

The first book in the trilogy was in the best-seller list in Israel for nineteen weeks ...he has a huge following over here .....whether you guys like it or not .

[King_David]

4. He's a attention seeking drama Queen

If you want to leave the Jews just do it , what's with the big announcement?

Nobody is going to kill him for it or anything. Nobody's gonna even beg him to stay.

Goodbye and good riddance , wtf needs you , is my message to him.

Just go already buddy , cut the drama.

[Israeli]

5. " He's a attention seeking drama Queen " .....

Says who ?

[oberliner]

7. He is trying to sell a book

He is doing the circuit trying to draw attention to himself so that he can sell copies.

He made a pretty good deal of money off his "Invention of the Jewish People" book and it's sequel.

Not that hard to understand.

[King_David]

9. Me I am expressing an opinion on an opinion forum,

He must just go already.. What's with the big song and dance .
If he don't want in with the Jews then what's he want?
He wants every Jew to beg him to stay?
Goodbye good luck and good riddance..

[Jefferson23]

6. Thanks for the information. n/t

[Israeli]

8. You are very welcome as usual Jefferson23....

...but really you should thank shira for bringing Shlomo to your/our attention
We dont push our politics on anyone .
Its a free country and a Democracy is it not ?

Shlomo Sand on Zionism, post-Zionism, and the two-state solution

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/12/shlomo-sand-on-zionism-post-zionism-and-the-two-state-solution

[Carlos Rodrigez]

10. So now Israeli

admits that Israel is a democracy. Seems not so long ago, he claimed otherwise, accusing the country of racism while substantiating this conclusion with no facts.

[King_David]

12. How's it important who introduced this former Jew

To us?

He is an attention seeking Prima Donna.

[Israeli]

13. Takes one ....

.....to know one I guess

( with ref to : " an attention seeking Prima Donna " )

[King_David]

15. Thanks, I'm not insulted,

Water off a ducks back.

I was insulting some dude who is making a big song and dance about leaving the Jews,as if anyone cares.

You were insulting a fellow DUr.

[aranthus]

11. When did he ever think of himself as a Jew and what did that mean to him?

Please read carefully, because I am not arguing that he was never a Jew. His parents were Jewish, so he was born a Jew. From the standpoint of the Jews, including this one, he was a Jew until he renounced, whenever that was. I am asking what he believed that an objective observer would categorize as Jewish. Jewish is a religious based peoplehood. He could self-identify as Jewish if he believed in the religion and/or the peoplehood. From his public writings and speakings he does not appear to have believed in either for a long time. So this new round of breast beating appears to be disingenuous. Maybe he's just trying to sell books. Maybe he's trying to make a larger point. Either way, his not wanting to be a Jew doesn't look like anything that he recently came around to believing.

[Israeli]

14. Why are you asking shira ??

He tells you why here @

http://tlv1.fm/arts-culture/the-tel-aviv-review/2014/10/11/how-shlomo-sand-stopped-being-a-jew/

Listen to him .....its an Israeli radio interview .

Of course you could always buy the book

[aranthus]

16. I wasn't asking Shira

Last edited Mon Oct 13, 2014, 05:57 PM - Edit history (2)

I asked a rhetorical question. Also, I didn't ask "why?" I asked when and what. You diverted. In any event, Professor Sand actually makes my point in the audio you posted. One of the first things out of his mouth is that he never thought he was a Jew. That's his choice. His religion is Leftism, so he doesn't want to be a Jew. He doesn't think that there is a secular Jewish culture so he's not part of that either. So what he's saying here, is nothing new to him. It also is really more about him than Israel. He reminds me of the second child at a Seder.

[Israeli]

17. " He reminds me of the second child at a Seder. " .....

LOL aranthus ..... hidden insults .

He is more like the fith child at a Seder

Ref for our DU non Jews :

http://www.thejewishweek.com/editorial-opinion/opinion/fifth-son-seder

[aranthus]

18. No, you've missed the point.

The fifth child from the article is the one who still thinks of themselves as Jewish, but who doesn't actively participate. The second child is the one who doesn't want to be a part; the one who isn't a Jew at all in their own mind. The second child is there because he has to be. He's there even though he doesn't want to be. That's Professor Sand. No insult intended. Just description.

Just to be clear, since someone is bound to point out that the second child is also referred to as the "wicked child." Sand isn't wicked because he chooses to not be a Jew. He's wicked because he's dishonestly portraying or allowing the portrayal that his choice is recent, and is rooted in things that Israel and/or Jews are or do. That isn't true. His choice to not be a Jew goes way back and is about who he is, not Israel. Also because he's bound to be one of those "Jews against Zionism" trotted out every now and then to provide cover for antisemites.

[Israeli]

19. I thought you were referring to "wicked child." ....

To be honest aranthus you and I will never understand each other or agree on anything ... as far as I am concerned you have missed his point .

To emphasize how far apart we are I give you another Israeli post zionist atheist ...
Uri Avnery :

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1208648191/

In conclusion : ....

" If we, the Israelis, want to consolidate our nation, we have to free ourselves from the myths that belong to another form of existence and re-define our national history. The story about the exodus from Egypt is good as a myth and an allegory - it celebrates the value of freedom - but we must recognize the difference between myth and history, between religion and nation, between a Diaspora and a state, in order to find our place in the region in which we live and develop a normal relationship with the neighboring peoples "

[King_David]

20. I agree with what Avnery wrote there,

But he's pretending that the majority of Jews believe differently . That he is among the elite Jews who" get" it and the rest of us do not "get " it.

It's no great revelation that ". The story about the exodus from Egypt is good as a myth".

What's he think that he's telling us some great truth that none of us "others " believe ?

WTF does this superiority come from?

[Israeli]

22. " WTF does this superiority come from? " .........

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/video/1383529439

[aranthus]

21. You might be surprised.

I think I get Sand's and your point very well. He, you and Avneri would like Israel to become a more civic nation state, rather than an ethnic Jewish nation state. I don't have a problem with that, provided the current Jewish majority agrees. Where we differ is that I think that if the current Jewish majority wishes to maintain Israel as the ethnic state of the Jews, then that's okay too, in the sense that it's morally defensible. So is a Japanese state or a Polish state. A second difference is that I think that the national identity has to be more than mere citizenship because nationhood is a different concept. Citizenship is a legal relation to a state, while nationhood is a cultural affinity. And that culture isn't going to come from nothing. America is probably the most civic nation in the world, but it didn't come from nothing. It came from a combination of English culture, Judeo-Christian values, and Greco-Roman political forms, among others. An Israeli nation is going to have to come from what you have and rework it so that it is available to everyone. And most of what you have is Jewish. It isn't there yet, and I don't think that most Israeli Jews (or Arabs for that matter) are ready for that. Nor do I think that your present neighbors are going to care very much. As long as Israel is not Arab and Muslim, I don't think it will be fully accepted (certainly not by Hamas/Hezbollah/ISIL).

By the way, the quote from Avneri is about making a deeper and broader point, with which I largely agree.

[Israeli]

24. " Will Israel exist in 90 years from now? " ??

with
Meron Benvenisti, Shlomo Sand, Itzhak Livni, Talia Sasson and Uri Avnery

Which speaker do you conect most with aranthus ?

[King_David]

25. Okay so I watched that.

Uri Avneri is a man with a "cause" Who has had a most interesting life.

He's first cause was Zionism. In fact he was a über Zionist.and very much a part of the establishment of the Jewish state.
He voted for unification of Jerusalem and annexation of Jerusalem and Syria.

Then when all am-Yisrael joined his side he wasn't happy because like Professor Sand he loves the spotlight and Likes to have his own unique" cause".

So to be "unique"and remain on the front page of the newspapers ( which are flashed all over yr clip ) he went to Beirut and Gaza to meet Arafat and even Hamas.

To continue to to be in the Spotlight and also so he can be different from all other Jews he started Gush Shalom and started protesting. This made Him nore righteous than all the other Jews.

He's 90+ years old now, and if all of Jews went over to his side and joined Gush Shalom he then would change to a new "cause" and probably become a right wing settler or something. His continued quest for a cause.

He's part of Israel's political elite , always has been and still is.

[Israeli]

26. Not working out too well for you ...

....and shira lately KD ...

ref : http://www.democraticunderground.com/113484220

can I say Moo ??

[King_David]

27. What's that got to do with me? Your post is absurd.

shira's post was hidden. Not mine.

You couldnt address what I posted huh ?

Never mind , what tangent do you want to go on now?

[Mosby]

28. what a shitty hide

another jury fail.

Do you get Israeli's "moo" insult? I have no idea what it's supposed to mean.

[King_David]

29. It's her sense of humor

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=84255

I called her heros "Elite" and Elite is a brand of milk chocolate in Israel , and I buy in the USA too ( BDS alert)
It has a cow on the wrapper = moo