Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumPalestinians made refugees again!
The brutal Syrian regime’s bloody crackdown on the protesters, who have been taking to street to get rid of the autocratic regime, has not only inflicted unacceptable toll on the Syrian people but has also triggered a new wave of Palestinian refugees.
It is the destiny of those refugees to live in a permanent state of refuge. Palestinian refugees in Syrian are estimated to be 480,000.
With the continued influx of refugees from Syria, Jordan was alerted that the many refugees entering the country from Syria were in fact Palestinians.
It is worth mentioning that Jordan hosts some two millions Palestinians refugees and several hundred displaced. Therefore, receiving a new wave of refugees is a source of concerns in Amman.
But given the delicate demographic balance in Jordan, Jordanians are sensitive toward having new Palestinians refugees. There is a strong political current in Jordan that oppose resettling the Palestinians in Jordan calling for them to be given the opportunity to practice their right of return.
http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article613117.ece
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LeftishBrit
(41,205 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)...advocates writing endless op-eds about the refugees' human rights, citing International Law, demanding UN action?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)it seemed to be oh so lacking here too when this subject was first brought up
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11347784#post19
but if you are oh so concerned for these people perhaps you should lobby for Israel to take some of them in, BTW how many refugees is Jordan expected to take in exactly
shira
(30,109 posts)...whenever Israel or Jews can be blamed. But not when Arabs do far worse to Palestinians. Why is that?
I could ask you about the very recent Flytilla and Global March to Jerusalem, as in why aren't these "humanitarians" flying or marching into Damascus for the rights of those being butchered right now? If they're - to put it into your own words - "oh so concerned".
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)would you like to them killed as well as Syrian nationals and refugees living in Syria?
and secondly the US isn't blocking UNSC action on Syria
shira
(30,109 posts)...to advocate for the thousands of those slaughtered by Assad and his goons. Worse than nothing, actually. They are working with the Assad government (as well as Iran) as they did when coordinating the GM2J (marching into Israel from Syria). I wonder what they saw in Syria while there. Hmm...
The USA blocking UNSC action has zero to do with humanitarian work. These sanctimonious bigots are nothing but frauds for rightwing humanitarianism.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)to walk into what is an indiscriminate war zone? but as to your claims of silencce here is a recent sampling from some of your favorites
Syria: Extrajudicial Executions
http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/04/09/syria-extrajudicial-executions
Written Testimony of Maria McFarland to the Tom Lantos Human Rights Commission on the Human Rights Crisis in Syria
http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/03/28/written-testimony-maria-mcfarland-tom-lantos-human-rights-commission-human-rights-cr
Syria: Local Residents Used as Human Shields
http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/03/25/syria-local-residents-used-human-shields
‘I WANTED TO DIE'
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE24/016/2012/en/708c3f40-538e-46a9-9798-ebae27f56946/mde240162012en.pdf
Syria has systematically tortured detained citizens: AI
http://jurist.org/paperchase/2012/03/syria-has-systematically-tortured-detained-citizensAI.php
Syria: Repression continues despite Annan plan hopes
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/syria-repression-continues-despite-annan-plan-hopes-2012-04-03
shira
(30,109 posts)The GM2J went through Syria (as well as Iran) on the way to Jerusalem last month. They coordinated with Assad. I wonder what they saw in Syria, don't you?
They're all silent WRT Syria.
It's because they're sanctimonious hypocritical bigots practicing rightwing humanitarianism, the same type of humanitarianism that Syria, for example, partakes in at the UN.
Of course, to answer your question, Yes! They should be sending flotillas into Syria and marching there. Besides being vile bigots, they are moral cowards.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)are the people on that march actual humanitarian organizations? or are you just looking to demonize something anything...........
it seems according to you the whole wide world should ignore Israel and all shift to Syria but as you have been shown some can do both
shira
(30,109 posts)They are the pro-Palestinian movement that cries crocodile tears for Palestinians.
They claim they are humanitarians and pro-Palestinian, fighting for Palestinian human rights, etc.
Response to azurnoir (Reply #8)
Ken Burch This message was self-deleted by its author.
Mosby
(16,311 posts)Work something out with the Jordanians so an IDF soldier can give one of the refugees a bloody nose.
Instant worldwide coverage. It will work even better if someone could film it and post it on youtube.
LeftishBrit
(41,205 posts)http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/15/syria-palestinians-latakia-assault
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/report-14-palestinians-shot-dead-in-syrian-refugee-camp-1.366496
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/110721/palestinians-refugees-syria-protests
Historically, the Arab states have got away with relatively little criticism, over treatment of Palestinians as well as some other matters, but they are under much more of a spotlight now. Certainly Syria is, and deservedly so.
shira
(30,109 posts)Google the news for yourself, Syria + Palestinian refugees + Jordan.
Nothing.
This is news not fit for the West.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)in the first place and most of those states are quite unstable themselves one of the more stable ones- Jordan has made over a million Palestinians citizens
LeftishBrit
(41,205 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)in the first place, are you denying the Palestinians in Kuwait and those kicked out of Jordan were refugees from what is now Israel? also Jordan has given many many more Palestinians Jordanian citizenship
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)You have no concern about the well-being of the Palestinians at all-this is just about once again dragging out the "everybody's unfair to Israel" myth.
This story had nothing to do with Israel at all, and it was totally wrong it twist these people's misery to suit your deflectionist agenda.
shira
(30,109 posts)This isn't about my concern for Palestinians.
It's about those who say they are pro-Palestinian when they are little more than bigots who have no problem using Palestinians as political pawns to bash Israel.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)someone wishes to demonize those who support Palestinian statehood
shira
(30,109 posts)They are bigots who couldn't care less about Palestinians or anyone else.
So tell me, would you like to see the pro-Palestinian movement advocate for the rights of Syrian Palestinian refugees?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)that other Arab countries have treated Palestinian refugees. But you don't really care about how Palestinians are treated. You only belabor the issue because you still hold to the delusion that, if only the other Arab countries had treated Palestinian refugees decently, those refugees would gladly have given up on returning to their home(or at least getting acknowledgment that Palestine WAS their ancestral home)and settled for being the "nothing but generic Arabs" you've always pretended they were. At the end of the day, you are still fighting to get the world to accept that there is no such thing as a Palestinian...and that none of the people who do identify as Palestinians have any legitimate grievances with the way the Israeli government has treated them.
Yes, the Arab world should stop penning up Palestinian refugees...but even if they did, Palestinian identity would still exist and would still be just as insistent on recognition as another national movement. They were NEVER going to accept being reduced to choosing between statelessness or exile. And you know it. So stop denying their reality.
shira
(30,109 posts)If Israel were involved, there would be all kinds of advocacy from the usual anti-Israel suspects who purport to care about Palestinians.
So why the silence?
And why doesn't the pro-Palestinian movement advocate for Palestinian refugees to choose whether they want citizenship in their host countries, like other Arabs from throughout the mideast?
The answer is obvious, isn't it?
and the answer is obvious.
shira
(30,109 posts)
Crunchy Frog
(26,587 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)You can't simply assume the worst of people because they disagree with you. And trying to shame people out of expressing sympathy with Palestinians cannot possibly lead to anything positive. It can't produce better political choices, it can't make Israel itself any more secure(since all silencing open debate on this issue does is to encourage the worst choices on both sides)and it can't make life easier for Jews in the Diaspora OR for Palestinians.
Please stop trying to shut people up. Please stop the demonization. It's vulgar and it only makes everything worse.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)A lot of people hadn't heard about this until very recently. I honestly think that has a lot to do with the response that you are attacking. It's absurd to assume that nobody cares about how any OTHER country treats Palestinians. A lot of us do care...it's just that what those other countries do to Palestinians is not an excuse for the status quo in the West Bank and it isn't a reason to let the Israeli government off the hook, which is what you want people to do.
You can't simply assume that it's always for the worst possible reasons...or that those you disagree with are always motivated by the ugliest ideas.
Why do your tactics on all of these issues always have to be about denounciation, demonization, and deflection?
Why is it so important to you to silence debate about the I/P situation. Giving the Israeli government unquestioning support(as the U.S. did from at least 1967 to the Nineties)never led to that government making positive choices or coming up with any real ideas for resolving the conflict...all that treatment EVER did was to encourage the worst choices among Israeli governments of various parties. It led to the settlement project(something even YOU would have to admit by now is completely undefensible), to the militarization of the West Bank, and to the emergence of extremist whackjobs on both sides.
Why should the U.S. and the world feel obligated to go back to an approach that never accomplished anything?
Why should the Israeli governmen be given special dispensation on everything just because of who it claims to represent?
It serves no purpose for you to keep saying "they just hate Jews..they just hate Jews...they just hate Jews" or some euphemistic variant of that meme. Can you at least consider giving that tactic a rest? It's getting old and it doesn't help anybody on either side.
shira
(30,109 posts)...for the rights of Palestinians under Hamas control, or under Lebanese control where they are suffering under genuine apartheid conditions?
Ken, I'm asking very clearly why the pro-Palestinian movement only appears to be interested in Palestinian suffering when Israel can be blamed. That's all, nothing else.
What's your answer?
All you've written is that "they care", but by bringing it up that lets Israel off the hook. So rather than let Israel off the hook, the pro-Palestinian movement will remain silent and ignore Palestinian suffering in Syria, Lebanon, and Gaza. Israel needs to be the focus, first and foremost. The human rights of Palestinians really isn't of concern to the pro-Palestinian movement.
Do I understand you correctly?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)for you apparently or so it seems? if not why do you not do this yourself rather than point the finger at others?
however a Palestinian state would do the same for Palestinians in Lebanon , Syria and other places wouldn't it?
as for Gaza that is a different story elections would help wouldn't they?
shira
(30,109 posts)...against their Arab tormentors.
That, as well as the fact you guys truly don't care about Palestinians, unless Israel can be blamed.
What other reason could it possibly be?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)its something from years back and then you blame the Palestinians why is that, no is blind to what is happening to Palestinian refugees everywhere but whereas you would rather they be made into Lebanese, Syrians or anything else other than Palestinians again why is that?
shira
(30,109 posts)You say no one is blind to what's happening to Palestinian refugees everywhere but that's not true and you know it.
What is the great, sincere, and loving "pro-Palestinian" movement doing about Palestinians suffering in Gaza under Hamas or in Lebanon under apartheid?
Virtually nothing, right?
Why?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)pelsar
(12,283 posts)war produces refugees.....outside of the Palestinians, as far as i know, refugees are basically told, they got the short end of the stick and time to make a new life. And so they do. Whether they give up their identity or not as they adapt to their new country is up to them, but living in limbo is simply not a smart thing to do, not on a personal level and not on a geographical/political level that should be obvious by now.
For the Palestinians as they pass on their official refugee status from generation to generation and get support for it , has only made their lives all the more miserable...and its not going to get any better, as they simply are not returning to israel.
israel exists, some people got screwed by it, some "hit the jackpot" by its creation.....its that simple.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It actually doesn't, and I think it should be brought up more...but, as I see it, that is YOUR intent in constantly hitting that point. You only bring it up because YOU are trying to get the Israeli government off the hook for the Palestinians and the settlements...saying that is very different than saying that bringing it up truly does so.
You need to accept the fact that, even if every displaced Palestinian had been fully integrated in to the countries where they've been penned into the refugee camps, they would STILL want the right to return and still identify as Palestinian rather than "generic Arabs". The two issues should not be intertwined.
I don't personally know what's in the mind of every person who self-identifies as "pro-Palestinian". so don't expect me to explain what all of them think.
It is absurd to keep implying, as you do, that such people are ALWAYS driven by antisemitism...or even primarily so. There are some pro-Palestinian antisemites. There are also pro-Israel antisemites...and pro-Israel Arabophobes. This isn't a debate between saints.
shira
(30,109 posts)It's not about Palestinian human rights, is it? Those Palestinians aren't worth the time or effort. It's about getting Israel, isn't it?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It is a sincere sense of solidarity with those people. Why do you keep acting as if no one could actually feel sympathy with what Palestinians have gone through under the occupation?
It's much more likely that the center-right "pro-Israel" people you see as allies are the real antisemites. Has it ever occurred to you that, probably, a lot of them support Israel out of the hope that their own countries might eventually become voluntarily Judenrein?
That's what Balfour wanted for Britain, after all.
shira
(30,109 posts)You claim there's sincere solidarity with Palestinians suffering greatly under Hamas in Gaza, under apartheid in Lebanon, and now under Syria?
Where is this sincere solidarity?
Those Palestinians are virtually ignored by the "pro-Palestinian" movement.
Why?
======
If you don't have an answer, just say so instead of making up more crap about my views.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)But it's obviously wrong to assume what YOU assume...and it's wrong to argue that this somehow means that the Occupation and the settlements are no big deal.
