Palestinian family forced to demolish own house in Jerusalem

[Jefferson23]

JERUSALEM (Ma'an) -- A Palestinian family has begun to demolish part of a building it owns in East Jerusalem to avoid paying fines after the Israeli municipality issued a demolition order, the owner said Tuesday.

Walid al-Ubeidi told Ma'an that due to the size of his family, he expanded the building from three to four floors in 2002, and to five floors in 2004-2005.

He tried to obtain building permits from the municipality for both expansions, but to no avail, al-Ubeidi said.

An Israeli court recently ordered the family to demolish the fifth floor and seal the fourth floor by Sept. 25, or else face paying huge fees for the municipality to bulldoze it.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=729377

[oberliner]

1. Another BS headline from Ma'an

They are getting more brazen with this sort of thing these days.

[Carlos Rodrigez]

2. Oh, yeah

more brazen every day because in every other country one can violate zoning laws and add on new floors, without permits and with impugnity. And surely, if a Jew ignored zoning laws, Israel would let it slide.

[DanTex]

4. How so?

[oberliner]

27. The house isn't being demolished

And they aren't being forced to do anything.

[azurnoir]

3. Known fact - Israel rarely allows Arabs to buildanything even additions onto their own homes

Israel rarely grants Palestinians permits to build in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, although 550,000 Jewish settlers are frequently given building permits and allowed to expand their homes and properties.

Only 14 percent of East Jerusalem land is zoned for Palestinian residential construction, while one-third of Palestinian land has been confiscated since 1967 to build illegal Jewish-only settlements, the Association for Civil Rights in Israel says.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=729377

[Carlos Rodrigez]

6. Ma'an??

Have you get a news agency besides Ma'an that claims Israel discriminates?

Ma'an is biased. See http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/the_ma_an_network_promoting_understanding_or_a_radical_palestinian_agenda_

It feels like Palestinians are defending parking tickets upon political grounds, such as that the entire country was stolen, so they can park anywhere they want.

[bravenak]

15. Biased? Did you say biased?

But i thought you said we wont find 'unbiased sources'.

“Then give us a non biased non Israeli source.” - bravenak. That is asking to prove a negative. There can be an article that calls Israeli zoning law biased, but you won’t get an article declaring it unbiased, just as you won’t get an article calling Miami zoning law unbiased.

What's up with that?? Why you running around calling everything biased, when you fully admit that there is nothing unbiased? Is this a game you play? You know what we call what you are doing?

So i guess you are saying NGO monitor is biased. Since there is no way they can be unbiased, according to you. I will agree with you that the NGO must be biased too. Since everybody else is.

(Post under discussion)

13. To answer bravenak

“Then give us a non biased non Israeli source.” - bravenak. That is asking to prove a negative. There can be an article that calls Israeli zoning law biased, but you won’t get an article declaring it unbiased, just as you won’t get an article calling Miami zoning law unbiased.
“Convicted of by their own courts.” –bravenak. That Israeli courts have called Israel out is evidence that, in those instances where Israel is biased, we can rely upon the democratic process (which gives Arabs a vote) to call Israel out. With the courts not having declared Israel’s zoning biased, you have substantial evidence it is not. There is less abuse in democracies than in non-democracies, which is why you don’t find any Arab self criticism altogether.
“I was appalled to see one of their own very popular Knesset members calling for a 'final solution.” -bravenak. Characterizing Israel by its most extreme view is like characterizing the USA by the Klan. All it shows is that in a democracy, there is free speech.
“I wonder how long they think that (Israel’s denials) will keep working. . . . My generation is not fooled. . . .. I just keep sitting here watching all the name calling, lies, obfuscation, and thievery and think to myself, 'How Bold!' But I may just be ahead of my time.” - bravenak. I am always amused by the opinion that “this can’t go on much longer.” Just like the comment “a Palestinian explosion is about to happen.” These views have been regurgitated since 1948, and each time made accompanied with the confidence “this time things are different.” And yet year in year out, nothing changes. Israel’s propaganda tactics are the same. There hasn’t been much change in explosions, or at least not an abrupt change.
“Israel has gone from the underdog to the brutal oppressor.” - bravenak. Again. They been saying that since 1980, when the first intifada happened.
“with the browning of America, we won’t want to continue helping a State kill children that look so much like ours. . . . Israel does not reach out to all demographics.” - bravenak. This theory is unsupported, with no citation for the novel theory that brown America supports Israel less than white America.
Small, liberal groups are always inclined to criticize the man, that is the Western, stronger power. But these sources are inherently less reliable than mainstream newspapers, which have not been cited for this latest claim of zoning discrimination. The very rules of this web site say to rely more on the NY Times than fringe groups. See http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134287 (stating “Vanity websites are generally not as credible as the New York Times, the Washington Post or the UK Guardian and are likely to be locked. A good rule of thumb is to ask yourself is the author readily identifiable and likely to be cited by the mainline world press or encountered in an alternate format (mass-published book, academic journal, newspaper article, radio or TV show).”)

[Jefferson23]

5. More on East Jerusalem

Background
Legal status
Separation Barrier in Jerusalem
Settler enclaves
Family unification and child registration
Revocation of residency
Revocation of social rights
Planning, building and expropriation of land
Neglect of infrastructure and services
Data on revocation of residency
Data on demolition of houses built without permits
Data on land expropriation
Data on building starts

http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem/legal_status

[Carlos Rodrigez]

7. btselem??

Btselem is biased too. See http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/b_tselem

[bravenak]

8. Then give us a non biased non israeli source.

I'll be waiting.... I guarantee that if you find one, and they subsequently call Israel out for abuses, they will go on the biased list.

Israel loves making accusations of bias and war crimes, but they always ignore their own biases and war crimes. Like their human shield accusation that they themselves were guilty of. Convicted of by their own courts even. And bias..

I will politely remind you that Israel is very biased against Arabs and Blacks. I was appalled to see one of their own very popular Knesset members calling for a 'final solution' to the Palestinian problem. I was also appaled at the go home Nigg@@ rallys held on the streets of Israel, also attended by a member of the Knesset, who spoke out against those Blacks living in Israel.
(You can google it, comes up instantly)

I always find it amusing that Israel's defenders never call out Israel for ther actions, they just name call the people who do point out Israel's crimes. I wonder how long they think that will keep working..... My generation is not fooled.. Our kids will not be fooled... We know colonialism, many of us are the descendants of the colonized murdered brown people America concentrated into reservations, just like Israel is pushing Palestinians into small swatches of land and fencing them in.
(Manifest destiny)

Israel has gone from the underdog to the brutal oppressor in the last 40 years. One day, after it finishes taking all the land it can, the bill will come due. And we the people of the United States, will not be able to cover the moral debt. Besides that, with the browning of America, we wont want to continue helping a State kill children that look so much like ours.
(Demographic changes are weakening ties, Israel does not reach out to all demographics and are losing support)

I just keep sitting here watching all the name calling, lies, obfuscation, and thievery and think to myself, 'How Bold!' But I may just be ahead of my time.
(Don't ever second guess me again, give me money and bombs now!)

So go ahead. Accuse all human rights orgs, anybody who complains about dead children, most of europe, the UN, South America, Amnesty International, Liberals, and anybody who isn't buying what Israel is selling, of bias. It helps draw more people to your side and helps us forget about all of the dead babies the IDF murdered. Oh, and don't forget to call us antisemite or something lovely. That way we will be afraid to say anything for fear of that label.
( yes, please continue on this path, it never works)

Biased, my foot!! I wonder what you think about Israeli only settlements in Palestine. I wonder if you have no problem with that Jim Crow type bias. Do you? Por que no tienes problemas con bias cuando 'the biased' es Israel?? Pienso que eso es una problema. Israel tiene manos sucios.

(I'm a five minority pile up. A real one tho.

[Jefferson23]

9. I do appreciate this post, +1. n/t

[bravenak]

12. Thanks, Jefferson.nt

[DanTex]

10. Good post.

Tienes razon. Este forum esta lleno de trolles que no hacen nada mas que repetir propaganda de la extrema derecha.

BTW the person you're responding to is likely the same as this guy.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=81996
Links to NGOMonitor or other right-wing Israeli groups are pretty common here.

[bravenak]

11. I have noticed a certain 'fullness' of rightwingery in the group.

But then again, Israel is far right, so... There it is.

I figured that Zombies would be running around here after the summertime 'lawn mowing'. Didn't expect them to be so oblivious to the emptiness of their own arguments. Sad really. All that money spent on an 'explanation force', and it is not working very well. Sometimes i think that the pro Israel people are actually anti Israel posters since what they do has the effect of making me disgusted. And they call me extreme left like it's a bad thing.

[Carlos Rodrigez]

13. To answer bravenak

“Then give us a non biased non Israeli source.” - bravenak. That is asking to prove a negative. There can be an article that calls Israeli zoning law biased, but you won’t get an article declaring it unbiased, just as you won’t get an article calling Miami zoning law unbiased.
“Convicted of by their own courts.” –bravenak. That Israeli courts have called Israel out is evidence that, in those instances where Israel is biased, we can rely upon the democratic process (which gives Arabs a vote) to call Israel out. With the courts not having declared Israel’s zoning biased, you have substantial evidence it is not. There is less abuse in democracies than in non-democracies, which is why you don’t find any Arab self criticism altogether.
“I was appalled to see one of their own very popular Knesset members calling for a 'final solution.” -bravenak. Characterizing Israel by its most extreme view is like characterizing the USA by the Klan. All it shows is that in a democracy, there is free speech.
“I wonder how long they think that (Israel’s denials) will keep working. . . . My generation is not fooled. . . .. I just keep sitting here watching all the name calling, lies, obfuscation, and thievery and think to myself, 'How Bold!' But I may just be ahead of my time.” - bravenak. I am always amused by the opinion that “this can’t go on much longer.” Just like the comment “a Palestinian explosion is about to happen.” These views have been regurgitated since 1948, and each time made accompanied with the confidence “this time things are different.” And yet year in year out, nothing changes. Israel’s propaganda tactics are the same. There hasn’t been much change in explosions, or at least not an abrupt change.
“Israel has gone from the underdog to the brutal oppressor.” - bravenak. Again. They been saying that since 1980, when the first intifada happened.
“with the browning of America, we won’t want to continue helping a State kill children that look so much like ours. . . . Israel does not reach out to all demographics.” - bravenak. This theory is unsupported, with no citation for the novel theory that brown America supports Israel less than white America.
Small, liberal groups are always inclined to criticize the man, that is the Western, stronger power. But these sources are inherently less reliable than mainstream newspapers, which have not been cited for this latest claim of zoning discrimination. The very rules of this web site say to rely more on the NY Times than fringe groups. See http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134287 (stating “Vanity websites are generally not as credible as the New York Times, the Washington Post or the UK Guardian and are likely to be locked. A good rule of thumb is to ask yourself is the author readily identifiable and likely to be cited by the mainline world press or encountered in an alternate format (mass-published book, academic journal, newspaper article, radio or TV show).”)


“I wonder what you think about Israeli only settlements in Palestine. I wonder if you have no problem with that Jim Crow type bias.” - bravenak. The separation policy is evenly applied. So while Arabs cannot always visit Jewish holy sites and settle in Jewish settlements, Jews cannot do the same with Islamic and Arab places. The courts have declared this legal given the likelihood of saving lives.
In fact, the 9th Circuit court of appeals in California just ruled that it was legal for a high school principal to force students to take off their shirts with an American flag on a holiday celebrating Mexico. Their reasoning was that violence was likely. I wonder if you realize that under International law, and even under Palestinians law, there is no “Palestine.” See http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/184624#.VCJCPPm9x8E
Abbas has, for now, not yet declared a country. To even speak of “Palestine” is in defiance of Palestinian law, as promulgated by the Palestinian Authority.

[bravenak]

14. Could you maybe use paragraphs and reply to the intended poster?

Similar divides fall along racial and ethnic lines: While 47 percent of whites see Hamas as the instigator and 14 percent blame Israelis, 35 percent of Hispanics side with the Palestinian group on this issue, versus 20 percent with Israel. And blacks were split on the question, with 27 percent faulting the Israelis and 25 percent faulting the Palestinians.

According to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, these minority groups – like Millennials writ large – are much less likely to belong to pro-Israel evangelical denominations.

“I think to a certain extent that the African-American and Latino difference we now see is again due to white Evangelicals being more supportive of Israel,” Mr. Tyson says.

Politics also plays a significant role in one’s views, according to the report: Seventy percent of conservative Republicans blame the conflict on Hamas, versus 6 percent who place the blame on Israel. Liberal Democrats, by contrast, are split, with 30 percent falling into each category.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2014/0729/Americans-still-support-Israel-but-views-vary-by-age-and-race-poll-finds


So, yes... White Americans are much more supportive. And so are republicans. Israel has the support of 'classic America', palestine has the support of 'future America'. I'll get back to you soon with the rest of my reply.


As for millennial.. You know, the ones having and raising children right now, we were not born until the First Intifada. All of our lives Israel has been stealing land and killing Arabs. They have never been the underdogs in our time. And Israel has not even attempted to connect with us. Their bad. They think that as long as they have our parents on thei side they have us. But they don't.
http://www.salon.com/2014/08/01/millennials_are_so_over_israel_a_new_generation_is_outraged_over_gaza_demands_change/


And they will not survive without us. They have gone extreme rightwing. We are on the left.


And we don't rely on the NYT like generations of old. We rely on the internet and social media. Israel has lost the social media/PR war entirely. Take a look.http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2014/07/23/when_you_ve_lost_jon_stewart_you_ve_lost_middle_america.html

BTW, those settlements are NOT in Israel. It is Illegal under international law for Israel to SETTLE ANY land acquired in war. You cannot take land in war. Because of Hitler. Remember that? Any land not Israel's at the time of founding or given to them as a part of an agreement is not theirs. It belongs to the people who lived there at the time it was stolen. The settlements are illegal and the cause of more violence. Oops, and they just bombed Palestine and stole some more.

So keep on trucking on with your explanations. They are terrible.

[Carlos Rodrigez]

17. bravenak's misunderstandings.

1. The CSM article relies upon “a new poll from Pew Research.” One poll should not be the basis of a long term trend.

In any event, the CSM article also says:

“While younger Americans are much more critical of Israeli policy, the pollsters at Pew are unsure if Millennials will shift their politics as they grow older – or if this generation represents the first wave of increased skepticism among Americans toward Israel. The following could bode well for pro-Israel advocates: According to a 2010 census by the Association of Statisticians of American Religious Bodies, evangelicalism grew by 12 percent in the previous decade. . . . Other groups, however, such as the Institute for National Security Studies based in Israel, argue that US Latinos’ views toward Israel are more supportive than might be expected – given their average youth and widespread Democratic affiliation.

The recent Pew poll comes on the heels of a related survey conducted by the research group earlier in July, which calculated that American sympathy for Israel has grown modestly in the past few decades.

According to that poll, 51 percent of Americans now sympathize more with Israel than with the Palestinians, up from 45 percent in 1978.”

At any given time, the youth want to stick it to the man more than adults do. This might give the impression that future America will be more liberal. But what ends up happening is, after the young get old, they get more conservative.

I don’t think anyone argues that this country has gotten more liberal in the last 20 years. Instead there has been fluctuations, but no trend.

So if the youth of today is pro-Palestine, there is no guarantee the adult of tomorrow will be. By the way, polls say the Republicans will gain ground in the next election.


2. The Salon editorial just gives a prediction, which its author will be the first to admit is only slightly more likely to occur than not occur.


3. The John Stewart article is not serious journalism, unless you really believe that John Stewart will determine public opinion. Of course Stewart sides with the underdog. That is what liberals do, especially Jewish ones who feel it selfish to sympathize with the Jewish side.


4. “It is Illegal under international law for Israel to SETTLE ANY land acquired in war.” Now this is a whole other discussion. International law is unclear. One thousand jurists (judges) say they are legal. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/170582#.VCJeWfm9x8E The foreign minister of Australia agrees. http://www.timesofisrael.com/australia-fm-dont-call-settlements-illegal-under-international-law/ The USA has never taken a position on the issue, and deliberately calls the settlements unhelpful, but never illegal.

[bravenak]

18. Oh, Carlos...

I understand perfectly well. You are missing my point on purpose.

You are trying to make the settldments justified. They can never be justified. They will always be illigitimate. Thats why Israel supporters gnash their teeth with cries of "Deligitimisation!!".

The nation is not right wing as Israel by any standard. And, yes, we are becoming bluer. Thats why we have gerrymandering.


John Stewart is a mainstream liberal. People that ignore his popularity are usually republicans.

The polls said Mitt Romney won too.


Are you a republican? Just asking, since you seem to have a conservative viewpoint.

[Israeli]

19. Does the New York Times count ?

ref : Then give us a non biased non israeli source.


" I just keep sitting here watching all the name calling, lies, obfuscation, and thievery and think to myself, 'How Bold!' But I may just be ahead of my time.
(Don't ever second guess me again, give me money and bombs now!)

So go ahead. Accuse all human rights orgs, anybody who complains about dead children, most of europe, the UN, South America, Amnesty International, Liberals, and anybody who isn't buying what Israel is selling, of bias. It helps draw more people to your side and helps us forget about all of the dead babies the IDF murdered. Oh, and don't forget to call us antisemite or something lovely. That way we will be afraid to say anything for fear of that label.
( yes, please continue on this path, it never works) "


Its not working bravenak ...and I very much doubt that it is drawing more people to their side ....see :

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/23/us/rabbis-find-talk-of-israel-and-gaza-a-sure-way-to-draw-congregants-wrath.html?_r=1

[bravenak]

20. Good article, thanks.

Carlos doesn't see how counterproductive the arguments are. But he does approve of the NYT. I hope all is well with you.

[Carlos Rodrigez]

21. Damn it. I lost this debate because of the NYT.

I have no answer to that NYT article that Israeli cites. I mean you know what they say. However go the Jewish, Reconstructionalist, gay voters who go to temple in Montreal . . . so go all America.

[bravenak]

22. Ok.

I think this was supposed to be a funny. Like how Fox and Friends is "funny". Boy oh boy, do they make themselves laugh ever so much.

You lose the debate by not being good at it. Justifying settlements. And then you sorta did the, " oh you're young, you'll support it when you're older" sort of thing. Then you promoted republican views and said they'll win the next election to bolster your claims that everybody (usa) pretty much supports Israel. You derided jon stewart, poo poo'd polls you didn't like. You ignore proof of the age\racial\political party divide. Then you ran around calling everything biased, even though you say there is nothing "unbiased", which makes you whining about bias pointless. And you refuse to answer my questions I wrote in spanish Mr. rodriguez.

I am enjoying this, ever so.

[Israeli]

23. all is well bravenak....

its Rosh Hashanah here and I really need to get off line and finish cooking etc ...see you in the New Year

[bravenak]

24. Yay!! Eat some for me!!

See you next year!

[Israeli]

16. NGO Monitor is not biased ?

B´Tselem is Israeli Left Carlos Rodrigez ...did you not read what you posted ?

NGO Monitor is Israeli Right .

So I take it you to are biased .....towards our Right wing .

[Israeli]

25. Thanks so much for responding Carlos....

Happy New Year to you to .

[Carlos Rodrigez]

26. You too, guys.

Happy New Year.