Israeli refuseniks will be treated as criminals, says defence minister

[Jefferson23]

Moshe Ya'alon joins political and military leadership in attack on reservists who refuse to serve in Palestinian territories


Peter Beaumont in Jerusalem

The Guardian, Monday 15 September 2014 05.43 EDT

Forty-three Israeli military intelligence reservists who signed a letter refusing to serve in the occupied Palestinian territories have been denounced as criminal by defence minister Moshe Ya'alon, as the country's political and military leadership turned its fire on the refuseniks.

The ferocity of the response was not unexpected by those involved. One signatory told the Guardian before publication that he feared being portrayed as an enemy of the state after the letter was made public.

Among those who have criticised the reservists' actions are Israel's prime minister, the president, opposition leaders and a former intelligence head. In addition, the Israeli military revealed that 200 other members of the unit had signed a counter-letter defending its work.

The reservists' letter had alleged the intelligence unit undertook "all-encompassing" surveillance of the Palestinians – whether involved in terrorism or not – and used information, including on sexual orientation, to blackmail individuals into becoming informants.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/15/israeli-refuseniks-are-criminals-defence-minister


Israeli intelligence agents: 'we routinely targeted innocent Palestinians' - video

Three veterans from one of Israel's most secretive intelligence units speak out about questionable surveillance tactics used against Palestinians. The men, along with 40 other reservists, past and present, have signed a public letter refusing to serve in operations involving the occupied Palestinian territories. They allege the widespread use of monitoring and oppressive tactics against innocent Palestinians.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/sep/12/israeli-intelligence-agents-palestinians-surveillance-video

[Mao Shung]

1. A clear crime in violation of democracy.

When you fight terrorism, the most important constraint should be killing civilians yourself. Otherwise, you have wide latitude, including blackmailing someone over gayness. Better to blackmail 100 people, then to kill one.
Even assuming this is bad policy, anyone believing in democracy and the rule of law would notice that 200 reservists signed a counter letter compared with 43 original signatories. This suggests Israel made a democratic decision to engage in possibly shady tactics to save lives. The minority of 43 needed greater grounds to have engaged in this indisputable crime of publicizing a military secret, rather than complain through the chain of command.
No, every time you break the law in order to stick it to the man is not an act of democracy.

[King_David]

2. Do you have a link to that counter letter of 200?

[Mao Shung]

3. nope. n/t

[DanTex]

11. Hey, KD, so how do you feel about the practice of threatening to out gay civilians in order

to blackmail them to become IDF informants?

I wonder if you have the courage to denounce this war crime?

[King_David]

12. If true it's repugnant

What's even worse though is what they do to gays that are outed in the territories , if gays weren't beaten imprisoned and beaten and put to death by the extreme right wing terrorist Hamas and Israel's neighbors for that matter then outing them wouldn't have any effect .

Fuck the homophobic gay hating degenerate bigoted Hamas .

[DanTex]

13. Hey, look, common ground! Repugnant indeed:

That was the peak of my service within the Israeli army. The period during which I collected information on people who were accused of attacking Israelis, trying to attack Israelis, the desire to harm Israelis, thinking of attacking Israelis, in addition to collecting information on completely innocent people, whose only crime was that they interested the Israeli defence establishment for various reasons. Reasons they have no way of knowing. If you’re homosexual and know someone who knows a wanted person – and we need to know about it – Israel will make your life miserable. If you need emergency medical treatment in Israel, the West Bank or abroad – we searched for you. The state of Israel will allow you to die before we let you leave for treatment without giving information on your wanted cousin. If you interest Unit 8200 as a technological unit, and don’t have anything to do with any hostile activity, you’re an objective.

Any such case, in which you “fish out” an innocent person from whom information might be squeezed, or who could be recruited as a collaborator, was like striking gold for us and for Israel’s entire intelligence community. As such, Palestinians who are not related to or involved in fighting Israel are objectives. Thus, in terms of intelligence (aside from the physical blockade of the Gaza Strip), Gazan citizens are no different from their brethren in the West Bank – despite the “disengagement”, so to speak. During my training course in preparation for my service in this assigned role, we actually learned to memorise and filter different words for “gay”, in Arabic.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/12/israeli-intelligence-unit-testimonies

[King_David]

14. Best thing to get rid of the homophobic bigoted

Fuckers assholes gay hating pigs terrorists in the territories and surround .

The BDS should be against every homophobic bigoted regime in the area that discriminates against gays as well as commen fuckers Putin and Russia and their comerades in Uganda until they change their sick twisted ways.

[Jefferson23]

4. Where do you find the laws supporting blackmail..a Cracker Jack box? n/t

[DanTex]

9. Coercing civilians to become informants is a clear-cut war crime. This is yet another IDF crime.

There is no ambiguity whatsoever.

Art. 31. No physical or moral coercion shall be exercised against protected persons, in particular to obtain information from them or from third parties.

https://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Article.xsp?action=openDocument&documentId=D87EA8F4896F4CE1C12563CD0051BC20

[azurnoir]

5. More

Interviewing six of the letter’s signatories, Yedioth’s Elior Levy wrote (in Hebrew), “According to them, the Israeli public believes that intelligence is gathered only against those involved in terror. They want to publicize the fact that a substantial portion of the targets they follow are innocent people who are not connected in any way to military activity against Israel, and who interest the intelligence branches for other reasons.”

According to “N.” one of the six dissidents interviewed, “At the base they told us that if we turn up some ‘juicy’ detail, this is something important to document. For instance, economic hardship, sexual orientation, a severe illness that they or someone in their family has, or medical treatments they need.”

“N.” continued:

If you’re a homosexual who knows someone who knows a wanted man – Israel will turn your life into a misery. If you need urgent medical treatment in Israel, the West Bank or overseas – we’re on your tail. The State of Israel will let you die before it lets you go for medical treatment without your first giving information about your cousin, the wanted man. Every time we hook an innocent person who can be blackmailed for information, or to conscript him as a collaborator, that’s like gold for us and for the entire Israeli intelligence community. In a training course we actually learned and memorized the different Arabic words for homosexual.

http://972mag.com/against-spy-revelations-israel-doth-protest-too-much/96781/

[Jefferson23]

6. Israeli policy..so progressive, as long as you're not a Palestinian.

Thanks for the post.

[oberliner]

7. That's definitely the message 972mag is trying to get out there

Except for the first part.

[Jefferson23]

8. If you have anything to refute the claims, please post it.

*If you’re a homosexual who knows someone who knows a wanted man – Israel will turn your life into a misery. If you need urgent medical treatment in Israel, the West Bank or overseas – we’re on your tail. The State of Israel will let you die before it lets you go for medical treatment without your first giving information about your cousin, the wanted man. Every time we hook an innocent person who can be blackmailed for information, or to conscript him as a collaborator, that’s like gold for us and for the entire Israeli intelligence community.

If not, suggesting there is more nuance to how Israel conducts itself is merely sanitizing on your part.

[oberliner]

15. Here is a question

Do you think Israel is more or less progressive in regard to gay rights than its neighbors?

Specifically Palestinian citizens of Israel.

[Jefferson23]

17. Yes, but only to a point. They are used and abused by Israel to serve the states political

ambitions..ahead of any concern for their rights.

[DanTex]

10. Are you defending the practice of coercing innocent civilians to become informants?

[oberliner]

16. It was a comment about 972mag

They have a specific agenda that they promote repeatedly.