Hamas claims responsibility for three Israeli teens' kidnapping and murder

[shaayecanaan]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676

A senior Hamas official boasted during a conference in Istanbul on Wednesday that the group's military wing was behind the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers in the West Bank in June.

A video captured during the conference shows Salach Al-Aruri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Aruri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.

[Jefferson23]

1. Well, things are getting interesting..that's for sure. n/t

[King_David]

2. Yes a lot has been said about this topic on DU

Most of it heated .

People probably will claim Hamas has been mistranslated or something else and will continue to want Netanyahu to supply proof that it was Hamas , yada yada yada.

[Jefferson23]

3. Bibi had proof he provided before he destroyed personal property and arrested close to 600

Palestinians? You have a link for that, let me know.

[King_David]

4. Hamas did it

Bibi was right about that from the beginning .

[Jefferson23]

5. I didn't think you could give a link for that, since none exists. n/t

[King_David]

6. Here's an interesting thread on this topic

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113477046

I'll look for more to post when I get home.

[Jefferson23]

7. Why bother posting no evidence Bibi provided before he advanced the IDF to destroy homes and

arrest 600 Palestinians? They do this in your city when there is a crime?

If Bibi knew, as you claim, he has a bit of explaining to do.

[King_David]

8. Because it's interesting

I'll find some more interesting past threads on this topic " if Hamas did it or not" a little later.

I recall lots of heated threads when Kerry and Obama said it was Hamas.

When I get home .

[Jefferson23]

9. I didn't expect you to answer the question, and you didn't since he never provided

evidence. That he went ahead and used it as reason to justify collective punishment
is typical of him.

[King_David]

10. Hamas just admitted it.

Hamas did it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113477809

[Jefferson23]

11. I read that, and when you can answer my questions, that would be appreciated.

It appears to me you do not wish to do that.

[King_David]

12. No mistranslation ,

Hamas admitted it .

[Jefferson23]

13. That was not my question, but you knew that. n/t

[leftynyc]

14. It couldn't POSSIBLY be

that Netanyahu had all the evidence he needed - perhaps from a mole or a Gazan who thinks hamas are horrible for them - that gave him the proof and he didn't want to put their lives in danger by revealing the evidence or how he got it? That never occurred to you? hamas has admitted it and you still want to take a swipe at Bibi. Well, that's predictable.

[DanTex]

20. That's an interesting fantasy. I guess whatever it takes to believe that Bibi is an honest man.

And no, "Hamas" didn't "admit" anything that wasn't already known. We already knew who did the kidnapping, that it was people associated with Hamas. The fact that one Hamas member "admitted" that it wasn't in fact an Israeli conspiracy to kidnap their own people doesn't reveal any new information, because nobody believed that anyway.

In the future, evidence might come out that this was a coordinated Hamas operation and the hundreds of people the Bibi arrested were somehow involved. There might even be evidence that Bibi knew this thanks to some informant or maybe a tarot-card reader. But so far there isn't much new.

[leftynyc]

23. Nobody believed it?

Nice try that that's complete bullshit. If you don't think there are moles in hamas and among the Gazans, why do I continually read about people getting murdered for collaboration with the Israeli's? But keep defending hamas, it's adorable.

[DanTex]

24. That it was an Israeli false-flag operation, no, not that I know of. Do you know of anyone?

I guess I should have explained that "nobody believes it" is in the sense that "nobody believes the earth is flat", which doesn't mean that literally zero people believe it, but that nobody serious believes it.

Do you really think it's new information that this wasn't an Israeli false flag? And that it somehow vindicates Bibi?

Yeah, I'm sure there are moles. I'm also sure that Bibi is a lying warmongering maniac. Given that there's still no evidence that this was a coordinated Hamas operation, the secret mole theory is looking pretty unlikely.

[leftynyc]

26. Just think about what you're doing

You're giving more credence to a terrorist organization - a terrorist organization - than to the Israeli government. I detest Bibi but I wont let that fact get int he way of my good sense. You are giving hamas exactly what they want.

[DanTex]

28. That's an absurd charge. Honestly, you sound like Dick Cheney right now.

There's an extremely close parallel here with the war in Iraq. Bush claims that Hussein was tied to 9-11 and that there was a nuclear weapons program, and wants to use this as a pretext for war. But there's no evidence of any of this, and Saddam Hussein denies it. So, does refusing to believe Bush mean I am giving "more credence to Saddam Hussein than to the United States government?" Of course not. It means that I am skeptical of the excuses that warmongering right-wingers give for military aggression.

And the same thing is true here. If Israel wants to go around arresting people on the pretext of a coordinated Hamas plot, I'm going to want to see some evidence, and in this case, there is none. If Hamas says "water is wet" and Bibi says "no, it's dry", am I supposed to believe Bibi just so I'm not "siding with the terrorists"?

[leftynyc]

27. By the way,

There are plenty of Gazans who don't support hamas and know they're horrible for Gaza. Here's what hamas does with those suspected of collaboration:

http://www.aol.com/article/2014/08/22/hamas-kills-11-suspected-informers-for-israel/20950906/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmaing15%7Cdl3%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D518932

I'm guessing plenty more want hamas gone and are too afraid (can't really blame them considering....) to come forward and say it out loud.

[DanTex]

29. Yeah, I don't support Hamas either, if that's what you're implying.

[leftynyc]

30. Not at all

But I do think trying to separate hamas from Gaza is dishonest. They are the elected government. The fact they have killed all their opposition and wont allow new elections should give anyone pause before declaring they have the support of Gazans. Have a election and prove that....and stop killing those in opposition would also be a good place to start.

[FBaggins]

32. You don't seriously believe that, do you?

Back in June, Israel claimed that it was a Hamas operation planned/funded/directed by this very man... and here we have him saying that "It was an operation by your brothers from the al-Qassam Brigades" - the organization that he founded and controlled. He also said why they did it (hoping to exchage them for prisoners).

You can't (honestly) pretend that all he was saying was that it wasn't an Israeli false flag operation.

[DanTex]

33. The "Israeli conspiracy" he was talking about was the false-flag theory.

He said, no, it's not a false flag, it was done by our people. Which everyone already knew. See the links below, independent experts thus far are skeptical of the claim that it was a coordinated operation as opposed to an isolated cell.

[FBaggins]

34. Yet that was not the totality of what he said.

It really can't be spun.

He didn't say that it was done by "our people" (who might have done it on their own)... he said that "The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike" and "The struggle of the masses of our people has expanded to include all the territories that have been occupied, and the highlight oft it was the heroic deed that was carried out by AL-Qassam Brigades - the kidnapping of three settlers in Hebron"

Yes... almost everyone "already knew" this (it's what Israel has been saying from the beginning)... but Hamas' supporters have been denying it. This news doesn't add much to what most of us already knew... it just destroys the shred of a possibility that those supporters were correct.

[DanTex]

35. We already knew who did it. There is no new info here.

We already knew who they were, and that it wasn't a false flag. We still don't know whether it was a coordinated operation involving Hamas leadership which would have justified arresting all those people. And even if evidence later emerges that it was more than just an isolated cell, the fact remains that this evidence wasn't available when Israel went around arresting people en masse.

I will concede that it is still possible that not only will evidence arise that it was more than an isolated cell, but also that Israel had intelligence to this effect that it wasn't able to release to the public. It's a long-shot, but it's not totally impossible. But so far neither of those have happened.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

18. Yet there is no link that Bibi baby-killer had proof.

????? ?????

The burden of proof was on Netanyahu. He never presented it.

[FBaggins]

31. They have no such burden of proof.

Any such proof would necessarily come from intelligence sources that would cease to have value (or cease to breath oxygen) if they were disclosed. The US could insist that such intelligence be shared with our intelligence community perhaps... but they certainly have no obligation to publish it somewhere that internet debaters can reference.

This is pretty ridiculous spin on your part. Less than a month ago a BBC reporter tweeted that a spokesman for Israeli police told him that they thought it was a lone cell (something the spokesman denied ever saying)... and you took that to be an Israeli admission that Hamas wasn't involved in the kidnapping/murder of three teens. Now we have an actual Hamas official saying that they did it... and you're still trying to pretend that there's some doubt?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

36. What wonderful excuses you have.

During the Bush II Administration when they made accusations without proof did you repeat the same party line?

[azurnoir]

37. George W Bush said that Iraq was complicit if not outright responsible for 9/11

Here we had an actual leader saying so, can there be any doubt?


and




just in case

[King_David]

39. What leader ,

This is Hamas admitting to it .

[azurnoir]

40. try reading back please it was a Hamas leader we're told unless you say he isn't? n/t

[King_David]

42. Hamas admitted it ,

Not that there was any doubt . Even before the admission Obama and Kerry fingered Hamas.

[azurnoir]

43. Obama definitively said Hamas kidnapped the 3 Israeli teens? can you link us up on that?

he called it an act of terror he extended his condolences to the families but fingering the perpetrators?

what I've seen is that most who believe it was Hamas believed it from the moment Netanyahu uttered the words not because of anything supposedly said by Obama

[King_David]

44. I don't see any point

Hamas admitted it , it's all a moot point.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

19. The proof is necessary.

If I claim to have murdered somebody it either means that...

1. I am responsible for the murder...

2. I am lying...

3. I am crazy...


That being said, numbers 1-3 does mot justify the police to kill my family and neighbors. They have to build a case against me.

Now if the Israelis had released the information which shows that Hamas us responsible then they should have done so.

Right?

[King_David]

15. Kick

[oberliner]

16. Mitchell Plitnick doesn't buy it

No, Hamas Did Not Take Responsibility For Three Israeli Youths’ Kidnapping And Murder

http://mitchellplitnick.com/2014/08/21/no-hamas-did-not-take-responsibility-for-three-israeli-youths-kidnapping-and-murder/

[brooklynite]

17. Who is Michael Plitnick and why is his analysis relevant?

As far as I can see, there are only two questions open to challenge:

1) Is Saleh al-Arouri a Hamas Official?

2) Did he in fact say: "The popular will was exercised throughout our occupied land, and culminated in the heroic operation by the Qassam Brigades in imprisoning the three settlers in Hebron,"

[DanTex]

21. Here's the relevant part of the article.

There has always been debate over whether the kidnappings were planned by Hamas or done by a rogue unit. The debate hasn’t really been a sensible one; speak to people with knowledge of the politics in Palestine and, in particular, the various armed factions as well as different familial groupings within the political system and resistance movements and you will realize quickly which side of the debate is correct. But such is the state of our media that such people are rarely spoken to, so we live in ignorance.

...

In any case, al-Aruri was front and center cheering the kidnappings/murders in June, and certainly could have been read as being a part of it. But Israeli officials trying, back in June, to link Hamas to the murders told the Israeli media that, while they couldn’t connect al-Aruri to the act “this is what he has been endless(ly) urging and directing the terror cells he funded to do, over the past few years.” So there was already a belief in Israel that al-Aruri was connected.

But, in fact, this big story that has broken today adds nothing to such suspicions. What did al-Aruri say? According to reports, he said: “It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn’t…The al-Qassam’s mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners’ hunger strike.”

Now, let’s examine this. Al-Aruri was addressing a very different point than the one being made by the media. He was talking about the belief, held by many, that Israel staged the kidnapping and murders in order to take the actions they subsequently set out upon. It’s an absurd theory, but I’ve seen it quite a bit in the past months. So, al-Aruri wanted to make it clear that this was a Palestinian act.

In fact, we know that the Qawasmeh clan in Hebron carried out the crime. The Qawasmehs are a powerful clan, and have often taken action not just without authorization from Hamas, with which they are strongly affiliated, but sometimes intentionally to foil or change Hamas’ plans and strategy. You can read more about this here. But the Qawasmehs are connected with Hamas’ military wing, the Izz ad-din al-Qassam Brigades. So, all al-Aruri said was what we already knew: the Qawasmehs carried out the act.

[DanTex]

22. Claim by Saleh al-Arouri is doubted by experts and not supported by other Hamas sources

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/21/hamas-kidnapping-three-israeli-teenagers-saleh-al-arouri-qassam-brigades

Hugh Lovatt, Israel and Palestine coordinator at the European Council on Foreign Relations, said that while al-Arouri was a significant Hamas figure – serving as the group's most prominent representative in Turkey – the former militant could have an ulterior motive for making his claim.

"Given the timing I would be very suspicious about his claim. I still don't believe Hamas as an organisation and its upper echelons sanctioned the kidnappings – something that Israeli intelligence also believes," he said.

Lovatt said that al-Arouri may be trying to claim credit for the actions of others in an attempt to demonstrate his own continued sway in the West Bank and Hamas's ability to hit Israel after failing to secure significant concessions after six weeks of violence in Gaza.

"A second, more remote possibility, is that al-Arouri is telling the truth and that he has operated on his own initiative – a development with very worrying repercussions as it would imply a serious power struggle and splintering within Hamas," he said.

[faisal akbar]

38. exactly

there is no proof, so Hamas must be considered innocent until there is proof.

[oberliner]

41. Maybe other Hamas claims are dubious as well

Similar scrutiny should be applied consistently across the board.

[faisal akbar]

45. overliner misses the point.

The point is that this was not a Hamas claim. This was a claim by one man with possibly ulterior motives. It would be another thing if hamas central verified his claims.

[oberliner]

46. What constitutes a Hamas claim?

Who is and is not authorized to speak on their behalf?

[Israeli]

48. Mashal: Hamas was behind murder of three Israeli teens

In Yahoo News interview, Khaled Mashal admits Hamas militants were behind killing of 3 teens, but says wasn't 'aware of action in advance.'

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4562328,00.html

[Jefferson23]

49. Oh well, at least we now have confirmation as to the legitimacy of Operation Protective Edge.

woohoo Bibi.