Report: Israeli source says Hamas's Mashaal torpedoing long-term truce

[Fozzledick]

Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal has been the central force preventing a long-term truce between Israel and the Palestinians to halt more than a month of hostilities on the Gaza front, Channel 2 quoted an Israeli diplomatic source as saying on Thursday.

The leader of the Palestinian delegation to cease-fire talks, Fatah official Azzam al-Ahmed, announced on Wednesday just before midnight that a 72-hour truce would be extended for five additional days to give the sides more time to work out a long-term agreement.

The Palestinians reportedly had asked for a 72-hour extension of the truce, but Israel had insisted on a five day extension to prevent the cease-fire from ending on the Sabbath.

According to the Israeli official quoted by Channel 2, a long term deal could have already been reached, but Mashaal "was and remains the source of friction that is torpedoing a deal."

Mashaal, who resides abroad in Qatar, is enmeshed in a disagreement with the local Hamas leadership in Gaza, the report added.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Report-Israeli-source-says-Hamass-Mashaal-torpedoing-long-term-truce-371088

[earthside]

1. It is likely the other way around.

Israel is the 'torpedo'.

Egyptian and Palestinian sources said Israel had tentatively agreed to allow some supplies into Gaza and relax curbs on the cross-border movement of people and goods, subject to certain conditions.

A Palestinian demand for a Gaza seaport and reconstruction of an airport destroyed in previous conflicts with Israel has also been a stumbling block, with Israel citing security reasons for opposing their operation.

What is the point of a long-term truce if the people of Gaza are still going to be under colonial control by the central government of Israel?

[Fozzledick]

2. The point of a truce is to end the violence.

What's the point of an agreement if Hamas just uses it to import more weapons?

Once the violence is ended and Hamas disarmed then further opening of the border can be considered, not before.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

3. Ahhh, always a new set of demands...

Tell us, has Netanyahu ever released the evidence he said he had of Hamas involvement in the deaths of the three Israeli settlers...you know the incident that started this whole mess?

[intaglio]

4. Evidence? Bibi don't need no stinking evidence

BTW Have you heard that the Israeli Government has sanctioned B'Tselem, The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories?

Fozzie here posted about it, Apparently B'Tselem have not been following the party line and criticising the Sacred Israeli Government and the IDF.

[King_David]

13. Evidence

Hamas in Gaza funded June kidnap and murder of three teens, Israel says

The state said Wednesday that Hamas operatives in Gaza funded the June kidnapping and murder of three teens in the West Bank, the event that led up to Israel’s four-week Gaza offensive.

The funding aspect was revealed in a reply to a petition against the demolition of the homes of the three men suspected of the kidnapping and murder.

The state named Hussam Qawasmeh as the leader of the cell; the Shin Bet security service had previously suspected that Marwan Qawasmeh and Amer Abu Aisheh were the leaders. Last month, the police’s counterterrorism unit arrested Hussam Qawasmeh at the home of relatives in the Shoafat refugee camp in East Jerusalem.

The state says Hussam Qawasmeh confessed during his Shin Bet interrogation that he had received funding for the abduction and murder from Hamas operatives in Gaza. It says one of the security prisoners released in the 2011 exchange for abducted soldier Gilad Shalit may have helped Qawasmeh with the transfer of funds.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.609167

[intaglio]

15. A statement that was later withdrawn

as you are well aware.

An independent group of 3 individuals who claimed they were assocoated with Hamas on the West Bank carried out the crime. Their names were given up by the Palestinians.

Nice try but - Fail

[King_David]

16. Cite please

[intaglio]

18. From Alternet

Link here

2. Hamas, Rockets and Kidnappings

We hear a lot about how many rockets Hamas fired, but rarely in a proper timeline. Hamas had been strictly observing a cease-fire agreement since it was brokered in 2012, and was even arresting Palestinian militants from rival factions who fired rockets at Israel as recently as last month. Hamas ultimately did resume firing rockets into Israel, but only after the massive crackdown Israel initiated against Hamas in the West Bank (and by some accounts, even after an Israeli airstrike on Gaza).

And it turns out the initial crackdown against Hamas was also without basis. Israeli officials now acknowledge, in direct contradiction to statements by Israel’s prime minister, that Hamas was actually not responsible for the kidnappings of the three Israeli teens after all. And this is not just a realization Israel made over the weekend: Israeli intelligence officers reportedly noted as early as June 30 that there was no evidence implicating Hamas as an organization.

emphasis mine

[King_David]

20. Israeli officials acknowledge ?

That's it ? Really ?


Sorry Hamas did it , the rockets started the need for the operation and as Haaretz editorial stayed : the tunnels gave the operation legitimacy .

[intaglio]

21. To use an old British term

Bollocks - and you know it. Not Hamas just some adventurers. Tunnel justification? Non-existent because the Israelis already knew about these terrifying "Terror Tunnels". Rockets? A response to the Israeli attacks on Palestinians on the West Bank.

None of this excuses Hamas not even the nearly 70 years of Israeli oppression driving their recruitment but for the amount of harm they caused a totally disproportionate assault by a criminal government.

[FBaggins]

17. They were in no sense an independent group

We may or may not learn how high up in Hamas the order originated, but:

They were Hamas members
The operation appears to have been financed and planned by a relatively senior Hamas member
Hamas immediately celebrated the action

[shaayecanaan]

22. Bullshit

The Israeli police have said that the people allegedly involved were "loosely affiliated with Hamas" but were not acting under orders from the leadership:-

But now, Israeli officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas's handiwork after all. (Update: The comments from the Israeli spokesperson in question indicate that the group thought to be responsible, a "lone cell," may not have been under direct orders from Hamas's leadership, but was loosely affiliated with the group. The headline of this post has been changed to reflect that discrepancy. See below for more.)

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html

The "financing" stuff sounds like bullshit as well. They saw some kids walking across the West Bank, they grabbed them and shoved them into a car and then later shot them. Doesnt sound like an operation that required a great deal of fundraising.

[earthside]

8. Self-defense and the right to resist oppression.

The people of Gaza and their elected government have the same right as any other national political entity to acquire weapons to defend themselves and/or to resist oppression.

Israel, as any colonial power, wants to dictate to the people of Gaza how they are to do ... well, in truth and reality, everything.

Besides, in Israel, a several hour or several day truce is to end the violence; a long-term truce is the instrument under which 'long-term' conditions are set for the Palestinian population.

If the Netanyahu government was actually interested in long-term peace, it would end the blockade of Gaza and negotiate in good faith -- Hamas would then probably become politically unviable in Gaza. But, of course, Netanyahu and the right-wingers want to preserve Hamas since they are the 'reason' for the on-going oppression and war against the Palestinians.

[FBaggins]

9. That's wrong in a number of ways

But let's focus on the most obvious:

...end the blockade of Gaza and negotiate in good faith -- Hamas would then probably become politically unviable in Gaza.

You're kidding, right? They aren't "politically viable" now. They haven't held elections since they killed off much of the opposition years ago. Opening the borders while Hamas controls the flow of goods and funds just further cements their power. Giving them what they want hardly damages them. Heck... these are the peple who staged "victory" ralies during the last ceasefire... despite no tangible victory at all (and while rounding up and killing Fatah members)

What makes Hamas "politically unviable in Gaza" is the recognition among the people that Hamas scores their political points over the dead bodies of other Palestinians... kills other Palestinians if they're even suspected of supporting other parties... and Israel is clearly ready and willing to work with other Palestinians and Arabs in other countries.

Unfortunately... it isn't just those three things. It has to be those three things and the ability to remove Hamas from power.

[Fozzledick]

10. That's nonsense - the blockade is a defense against Hamas' terrorist attacks.

There's no reason to consider lifting it while Hamas continues to shoot rockets - doing so would only make matters worse and encourage more violence.

[FBaggins]

5. That hasn't been the problem.

Israel and Egypt have reportedly offered to open the borders and a seaport and airpot... and to not have Israel control them... and to rebuild Gaza (with international aide) without Israeli control of the funds. Palestinians would control all of that.

Hamas still won't make the deal. Because it's Fatah and the PA that would be in charge of making sure that the imports did not re-arm Hamas and of coordinating the reconstruction. Hamas won't accept that.

[azurnoir]

6. Got a link for that? because I haven't read anything of the sort

FBaggins

That hasn't been the problem.

View profile
Israel and Egypt have reportedly offered to open the borders and a seaport and airpot... and to not have Israel control them... and to rebuild Gaza (with international aide) without Israeli control of the funds. Palestinians would control all of that.

Hamas still won't make the deal. Because it's Fatah and the PA that would be in charge of making sure that the imports did not re-arm Hamas and of coordinating the reconstruction. Hamas won't accept that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113477046#post5

[FBaggins]

7. Sure

Security arrangements and trade access to the Gaza Strip are expected to be issues at the core of the indirect talks between Israel and Hamas in Egypt. Egyptian officials are to mediate the talks, with assistance from U.S. diplomats.

Israel aims to ensure Hamas cannot rebuild its rocket arsenal and military capabilities, while Hamas wants the Israeli blockade of goods and people into Gaza lifted. At the center of these deliberations, according to U.S., Israeli and Arab diplomats, is a push to place the Palestinian Authority led by Mahmoud Abbas and Egypt at the heart of efforts to disarm Hamas and open Gaza to economic development.

These diplomats said the Palestinian Authority might be given the task of manning Gaza's border crossings with both Egypt and Israel, which will be needed to smooth the flow of humanitarian aid.

Ending a seven-year Israeli and Egyptian blockade of Gaza is one of Hamas's central demands for any deal. But it was unclear whether Hamas would resist the push to give Mr. Abbas a larger role in Gaza. The Palestinian president is also the head of the Fatah political faction, Hamas's chief rival.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/cease-fire-between-israel-and-hamas-holds-for-second-day-1407330080

[azurnoir]

11. the article is behind a paywall and the snip you posted does not in any way match the claims made

about Israel agreeing to this

[FBaggins]

12. There was no paywall when it was first posted

But now a week has passed. Usually you can Google individual lines from the story and hit a non-paywall version because they still want their work to show up on searches.

does not in any way match the claims made about Israel agreeing to this

You're kidding, right? You think it's Hamas proposing this?

On edit - Here's a more recent report making clear that's it's similar to proposals by Egypt, Jorda, the Saudis, the US and Europe... and the Palestinian authority. Pretty much everyone but Hamas.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/113477068

[shaayecanaan]

23. You made a specific claim that was false

you said that Israel had repeatedly offered to allow the Gazans to open an airport and seaport.

The reference you have cited does not even go close to supporting that claim.

[FBaggins]

25. You might try reading that again

I said "reportedly"... not "repeatedly"... and that's just what the link I gave you said.

You can elect to pick nits about which entry points are includes, but it's clear that they've been offering to open the borders... just under different (but still Palestinian) control. It's Hamas that won't accept this.

[shaayecanaan]

27. It doesn't say that

Your claim was:-

Israel and Egypt have reportedly offered to open the borders and a seaport and airpot

and you say that the following paragraph supports that claim:-

Israel aims to ensure Hamas cannot rebuild its rocket arsenal and military capabilities, while Hamas wants the Israeli blockade of goods and people into Gaza lifted. At the center of these deliberations, according to U.S., Israeli and Arab diplomats, is a push to place the Palestinian Authority led by Mahmoud Abbas and Egypt at the heart of efforts to disarm Hamas and open Gaza to economic development.

There is no support in that paragraph for anything that you assert.

You can elect to pick nits about which entry points are includes,

I dare say that the entry points that they are talking about are the border crossing at Rafah in Egypt and the border crossing at Erez with Israel. Those are the main entry points.

On the other hand, there is absolutely no indication that Israel has offered to allow the opening either of the ports of Gaza or the Yasir Arafat International Airport in Gaza, contrary to your assertion. In fact Israeli officials have made pointed remarks that they are highly unlikely to do so.

Please bear in mind that there are a lot of regulars here on both sides of the divide who follow this issue quite closely and know far more about it than you. If you're going to talk out of your arse, you can expect to see it spanked soundly from time to time.

[leftynyc]

14. It took me 30 seconds

to find a cached version of the wsj story:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB30001424052702304070304580075171960192604

[Purveyor]

28. Say what? Takes me right to the 'pay wall'. 'cached' indeed. eom

[leftynyc]

30. Here's another - I see the entire article

http://online.wsj.com/articles/gaza-airstrike-kills-child-palestinian-officials-say-1407151901

If it doesn't work just type wsj gaza ceasefire august 6 into google, it'll be the first link shown. It's not rocket science.

[azurnoir]

32. took me 3 seconds to find-cached paywall

Israel, Hamas Start Indirect Talks in Cairo
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By
Asa Fitch in Gaza City,
Joshua Mitnick in Tel Aviv and
Rory Jones in Jerusalem
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Updated Aug. 6, 2014 6:34 p.m. ET

A cease-fire in Gaza was holding for a second day Wednesday as indirect talks between Israel and Hamas began in Egypt on a longer-term truce and more comprehensive deal on the Gaza Strip.

Many of Gaza's 1.8 million people ventured into the streets in search of food, medical supplies and other staples, taking advantage of the 72-hour pause in Israeli shelling and airstrikes.

Others who had been living in shelters returned...
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http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB30001424052702304070304580075171960192604

[whosinpower1]

19. Makes little sense actually

Hamas already agreed to the unity government, a technocratic government that Hamas agreed to - in spite of the fact that no Hamas members would be allowed to sit on that government.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n16/nathan-thrall/hamass-chances

snip - The obvious solution is to let the new Palestinian government return to Gaza and reconstruct it. Israel can claim it is weakening Hamas by strengthening its enemies. Hamas can claim it won the recognition of the new government and a significant lifting of the blockade. This solution would of course have been available to Israel, the US, Egypt and the PA in the weeks and months before the war began, before so many lives were shattered.

[FBaggins]

26. Hamas has agreed to "unity" government before...

... and then killed off the members of the other party. Leaving them in sole possession of power in Gaza.

They (reportedly) agreed to a unity government again... but that's doesn't mean that they really agreed to it. For instance, they made clear that even though the so-called unity government was going to accept Israel's right to exist and cease hostilities... Hamas had no intention of doing so. There was talk that the new government was going to accept the "two state solution"... except that every statement that Hamas made about it was to temporarily accept a Palestinian state - they never made a public statement that they would accept an Israeli state.

What you're missing is that the Palestinians are in no sense united on their leadership. There was (and remains) lots of conflict to come - entirely distinct from the conflict with Israel.

[whosinpower1]

29. Did you read the article? Nt

[azurnoir]

33. your comment makes little sense unless of course you mean 2007? n/t

[Fozzledick]

24. If I might interrupt the usual squabbling for a moment...

What I find most interesting in the OP is the implication that Hamas' military faction in Gaza has had enough and is ready to negotiate, it's just the political "leader" ensconced in a luxury hotel in Qatar who wants the war to continue.

Oh well, carry on...

[leftynyc]

31. I noticed the same

It's the clown in Qatar that wants the war to continue. I mean, what does he care? The ones on the ground in Gaza are willing to negotiate.