‘NYT’ gives Israelis the opportunity to shoot and explain (why not Hamas?)

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/gives-israelis-opportunity.html

Today the New York Times published a story about the Israeli strike on a United Nations school in Jabaliya, Gaza, that killed 21 last week — “Questions of Weapons and Warnings in Past Barrage on a Gaza Shelter“– that suggests that Israel just maybe committed a war crime for failing to discriminate between a military target and civilians.

Inspection of the damage, a preliminary United Nations review that collected 30 pieces of shrapnel, and interviews with two dozen witnesses indicate that the predawn strikes on Wednesday, July 30, that killed 21 people at the school, in the crowded Jabaliya refugee camp, were likely to have come from heavy artillery not designed for precision use.

The front page article today is decent, though way way overdue and of course the Times gives the Israelis plenty of space to reply–

“In any war, there are malfunctions and mistakes,” General [Gadi] Shamni said. Hamas militants “usually do things in order to attract” Israeli fire, he added, “and hope that some mistake will cause a disaster in order to delegitimize Israel.”

[Fred Sanders]

1. Dead people don't talk, dead children are particularly silent, NYT will not want to give them a

voice, no ad money in it.

[FBaggins]

2. What's to "explain" for Hamas?

When their rockets kill someone in Israel... they celebrate it. When israelis are kidnapped, they may or may not take credit for it... but again, they make clear that they're pleased that it happened. They don't try to "explain" suicide bombers... they honor them.

They don't attempt to "explain" how rockets end up in schools... or get fired from hospitals (etc etc etc).

So who isn't giving them an "opportunity" to "explain" ?

[COLGATE4]

3. Mondoweiss. nt

[King_David]

26. Yes amazingly people still post from this site.

Some people post every single "article "

[frylock]

4. there hasn't been a suicide bombing in Israel since 2008

[FBaggins]

5. There hasn't?

I think you're using wikipedia as an exhaustive list.

Or perhaps you think there's a difference if the explosives are loaded onto a donkey (as occurred last month)... or the bomber escapes and doesn't actually "suicide"? Or suicide bombs used against Israelis outside of Israel... maybe those don't count either?

There was a bus bombed in Tel Aviv about a year and a half ago (11/21/2012) injuring 21 people. Hamas praised the attack... but maybe it doesn't count?

A poll last month in Gaza showed that roughly half the population supported suicide bombings. Do we need to give them a chance to "explain" before we decide that's unacceptable?

[frylock]

6. i was mistaken..

what percentage of Israelis support the current campaign that has resulted in nearly 2000 dead civilians?

[FBaggins]

7. I'd imagine a very high percentage

And I'm sure that some small number of them don't even care.

But the bulk of them (unlike so many here in the group) can distinguish between trying to kill civilians (or not even caring)... vs civilians that Hamas put in harm's way intentionally.

Let's take a not-so-hypothetical -

There's a tunnel running from a given apartment building in Gaza that runs into Israel and the IDF decides to take it out. THey warn the neighborhood to flee... then they call the owner and warn him that the building is going to be destroyed... then they drop a couple "knocking" charges onto the roof (that every single Gaza resident knows means "get out of the way...now!"... and then they blow up the building. Question - When we later learn that there were still civilians in the building because Hamas had insisted that they ignore the warnings...

“To all of our people who have evacuated their homes – return to them immediately and do not leave the house,” said a statement titled “Urgent call to the residents of the Gaza Strip” released by the Hamas Interior Ministry, Ynet reported. “You must follow the directives of the Interior Ministry. This is psychological warfare, random messages to instill panic in people.”

... should we blame the people who obviously went out of their way to avoid the casualties? Or should we blame the "people" (sic) who made them stay - knowing that they would die... all so that they could use their dead bodies as propaganda against the people who wanted them to live?

[frylock]

8. sorry, i'm not buying the human shield propaganda..

people on the ground have stated that is not the case. I'm also inclined to take the word of the UN, that states that they had warned the IDF that the school was being used as a shelter, and even provided coordinates prior to it being bombed.

[FBaggins]

9. It really doesn't matter whether you "buy" it or not.

It is a reality. There is absolutely no question that Hamas puts palestinians in harm's way intentionally.

I don't call them "human shields" because a human shield is someone that is used to keep the enemy from firing at you. Hamas wants the enemy to fire at them because they want the civilian casualties. Civilian casualties are the only PR tool that Hamas has. They want as many of them as they can get.

[frylock]

10. you should tell the reporters on the ground about this reality..

because they're stating otherwise.

[FBaggins]

11. Which reporters would that be?

Not these surely?

International press in Gaza has hardly reported on how Hamas operates in this round of fighting and photos or video of Hamas fighters from recent weeks are rare, the reason for which became apparent this week as several journalists reported being threatened and even expelled from Gaza for reporting the terrorist organization uses civilian sites to attack Israel

Reporters from Italy and the US corroborated the IDF's explanation for explosions near Shifa Hospital and by a playground in Shati on Tuesday, that it was a result of rockets misfired by Gazan terrorists.

However, one altered his report and another waited to leave Gaza because he feared retribution from Hamas.

Italian journalist Gabriele Barbati tweeted a photo on Tuesday as he went through the Erez crossing into Israel.

Barbati then he tweeted the following in Italian and English: "Out of Gaza far from Hamas retaliation: Misfired rocket killed children [yesterday] in Shati. Witness: militants rushed and cleared debris."
.

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Journalists-threatened-by-Hamas-for-reporting-use-of-human-shields-369619

[frylock]

14. Hamas should be using their vast military installations instead

[FBaggins]

15. If they fought within the rules of warfare... this would have been over long ago.

But they know that they can't win that way. They also know that they can't win by terrorism alone...

... they only make political progress when they can do enough damage to force a military response - and then ensure that the military response hits civilians.

We'll all just politely pretend that we didn't notice you desperately changing the subject from claims that they don't do this... to claims that they have no other choice. Shhh.

[frylock]

16. i did no such thing..

laugh it up, though. seems you're really enjoying yourself. but what's not to laugh at, what with all the senseless deaths. har har har.

[FBaggins]

17. To be clear... I wasn't laughing at any deaths (senseless or otherwise)

I was laughing at you.

i did no such thing..

The shift was clear enough. Spin all you like.

[frylock]

18. my point was that there isn't anywhere in Gaza that isn't densely populated..

I'm sorry you were incapable of seeing that. Hamas launches a rocket from a neighborhood, full of "human shields," and then splits. the IDF uses that as an excuse to level the block, and then decries the use of "human shields."

[FBaggins]

19. Sorry if you can't read a map.

That canard has been tried before.. and failed.

There are lots of places in Gaza that you can fire rockets/bullets from that are not hospitals/homes/mosques/schools.

But they know that they can't do any damage to Israel that way.

Hamas launches a rocket from a neighborhood, full of "human shields," and then splits. the IDF uses that as an excuse to level the block, and then decries the use of "human shields."

You don't see that you just admitted it again... do you?

The rules of warfare do not allow Hamas to launch a rocket from a populated neighborhood. It's a war crime specifically because counter-battery fire would endanger civilians. It's the definition of using the population as human shields.

Q.E.D.

[frylock]

20. hamas should be punished for their war crimes, just as Israel should be punished for theirs

[FBaggins]

21. That sounds about right...

...what do you propose?

[frylock]

22. I support Jimmy Carter's plan for peace

[FBaggins]

23. That's nice

Now would you answer the question? What does "making them pay for their war crimes" mean to you?

[frylock]

24. international courts and prosecutions?

[MFM008]

27. oh please

By the time of the most recent attacks there wasn't room to swing a cat with out hitting civilians.' Human shield' is a sad assed excuse for the Likud and IDF and lunatics in the Knesset

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025337158 calling for ethnic cleansing and worse to do their "lawn cutting". IDF Counter fire doesnt endanger innocents it blows them up.
Isreal will never be thought of in the same way as they were, not by me anyway.

[King_David]

25. Thanks to the Wall they are decreased

[bemildred]

12. Google pulls more Gaza-Israel games from Android store

The US-based firm has now removed Rocket Pride by Best Arabic Games, in which players attempt to outmanoeuvre Israel's Iron Dome missile defence system, from its Google Play app store.

It also deleted Iron Dome by Gamytech, which challenged players to "intercept the rockets launched by Hamas".

Other titles that do not name the "enemy" remain online.

Advocacy groups have criticised the emergence of the genre.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-28668325

[bemildred]

13. Italy expels imam for preaching hatred against Jews

ROME — Italian officials on Tuesday (Aug. 5) moved to expel a Moroccan imam who was caught on video inciting violence against Jews during Israel’s military offensive in Gaza.

Interior Minister Angelino Alfano said he had ordered the imam, Raoudi Aldelbar, to be expelled “for seriously disturbing the peace, endangering national security and religious discrimination.”

The imam was filmed during a Friday sermon in a mosque near Venice last month calling for Jews to be killed “one by one,” according to the Washington-based Middle East Media Research Institute, which published the video on its website.

“Oh Allah, count them one by one and kill them all,” the imam allegedly preached during the service at the mosque in the northern city of San Dona di Piave.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/italy-expels-imam-for-preaching-hatred-against-jews/2014/08/05/564cc366-1cd1-11e4-9b6c-12e30cbe86a3_story.html