with some trepidation, a question about anti-antisemitism....

[mike_c]

Let me preface this by saying that I don't want to start an argument and am not posting this to stir shit up. I'm here to ask a question that is troubling me. I also ask the forum administrators' forbearance for asking a question rather than linking a news story-- this forum seemed the best place to ask, but I will move it elsewhere if necessary.

So here we go. There have been lots of accusations of anti-semitism on DU lately and lots of debate about what that term means. I have a rather narrow question that I'd like to ask, and I'd particularly like to hear the perspectives of Jewish Americans and Israelis, but of course the question is open to all DUers.

I have a basic understanding of the term "anti-semitic" and have learned much about it from DUers of all stripes over the years, and of course there has been much debate about whether to extend that term to disapproval of Israeli politics and military operations in Gaza. However, I'd like to know whether Jewish DUers and others consider an atheist's rejection of Judiaism as anti-semitism as well? With the express caveat that our hypothetical atheist (cough *me* cough) rejects Christianity, Islam, Wicca, etc just as vociferously.

So that is my question. Do you consider an atheist's rejection of Judiaism along with other religious practices to be anti-semitic? Let's make it a poll, but please expand upon your clicks with comments, as I'm far more interested in your reasoning than I am a simple yes or no. And if I've offended anyone, please accept my apology in advance, as no offense was intended. Thank you for sharing your perspectives.

5 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes, an atheist's rejection of Judiaism is anti-semitic.
	0 (0%)
	No, an atheist's rejection of Judiaism is not anti-semitic, [i]per se[/i].
	4 (80%)
	Something else, which I expanded upon below.
	0 (0%)
	I spit on your poll.
	1 (20%)
	I like to vote.
	0 (0%)
	1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[intaglio]

1. I am not Jewish but atheist and say your poll is definitely flawed

There are those of Jewish ethnicity who are atheist, can they be anti-Semitic?

[mike_c]

2. I don't think that's a flaw at all...

...although it's an interesting corollary that some might want to discuss. Your point obviously pertains to ethnic Jews who reject Judiaism as a subset of all atheists, though. Thanks for raising it. It wasn't something I'd considered previously.

I'm just an "atheist." Not a Christian athiest, or Jewish atheist, if you understand my meaning. That's the group of atheists I was really talking about. Just atheists who reject Judiaism, regardless of their ethnicity or religious background.

[oberliner]

3. Definitely not

I can't imagine anyone thinking otherwise.

[King_David]

4. Strange question

And not quite sure why anyone would ask it.

The answers clearly no.And it also has nothing to do with IP either.

[mike_c]

7. admittedly....

I wondered whether it might be better in the religion group, but I didn't want it to degenerate into a discussion about atheism. And, since quite a bit of the discussion about the nature of anti-semitism takes place in this forum, it seemed a reasonable place. I understand the sensitivity, and I'm not sure this was a good idea. I was hoping someone would give me something to think about.

[Spider Jerusalem]

5. "Jewish" is not merely a religion.

It denotes ethnicity and culture as well as religion. About half of all Jews worldwide are secular; they're still Jewish. Rejecting religion in general isn't "anti-Semitic". Saying things like "the Jews control the media", "the Jews control the financial industry", "the Jews control Hollywood", "the Jews own Congress", "Jews can't be trusted because they're more loyal to Israel than the USA", IS anti-Semitic. Criticising the policies of the Israeli government is not anti-Semitic; conflating the Israeli government with "the Jews" more generally is anti-Semitic. Criticising Zionism isn't necessarily anti-Semitic; conflating Zionism as an ideology and "the Jews" as a people is.

Basically, anti-Semitism lies in assigning negative characteristics to Jews collectively rather than criticising specific ideas, policies and ideologies. It's not any different in that respect to the tendency among some (especially since 9/11) to conflate Islam with terrorism.

[shaayecanaan]

6. Yes, you are a certified Nazi, if that makes you happy

I am very truly and utterly sorry to tell you this, but outside of small-town America atheism is not even tentatively edgy any more. Nobody cares. It is only because religion is such a dead horse that there are so many people willing to stand around and kick it. Adolescents, in particular. We all went through this phase when we were about twelve or so, but hopefully by around eighteen we get over it. This post-adolescent fixation with "being an atheist" is not going to do you any good. Its not a proper identity, its the absence of one.

And no, nobody associates atheism with anti-semitism. But thank you for the multiple apologies and the suggestions of "trepidation". If you hadn't included those I might have had a stroke.

In conclusion, I hope this brief foray into mildly contentious discussion rocked your little world. I hope it was deliciously titillating, but in only the most marginal sense, like flaying yourself with a piece of lettuce. May you live long and your love of faintly controversial opinions eventually lead you to discover yourself as an MSNBC journalist.

[msongs]

8. there are many groups that are semitic that are neither Israeli OR jewish. nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

9. You really need to drop this.

Anti-Semitic only ever means "anti-Jewish". It never does, never has, and never will mean anything else. This has been explained to you repeatedly. Canada and Mexico are both on the North American continent. "Anti-American" only ever means "anti-US".


Here, let's see what the dictionaries say, shall we?

Here's the OED:

anti-Semitism

(æntɪˈsɛmɪtɪz ( ə ) m)

[f. anti-1 7 + Semitism.]

Theory, action, or practice directed against the Jews. Hence anti-ˈSemite, one who is hostile or opposed to the Jews; anti-Seˈmitic a.

   1881 Athenæum 3 Sept. 305/2 The author, apparently an anti-Semite.    Ibid., Anti-Semitic literature is very prosperous in Germany.    1882 Athenæum 11 Feb. 184/1 In these days of anti-Semitism.    1935 Economist 24 Aug. 366/1 The Nazi Party stalwarts‥have all been leading an anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, anti-Protestant‥crusade.    1941 J. S. Huxley Uniqueness of Man ii. 50 Germanic nationalism on the one hand and anti-Semitism on the other.

Merriam-Webster:

an·ti–Sem·i·tism
noun \ˌan-tē-ˈse-mə-ˌti-zəm, ˌan-ˌtī-\

: hatred of Jewish people
Full Definition of ANTI-SEMITISM
: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group

The Chambers Dictionary:

anti-semite noun someone who is hostile to or prejudiced against Jews. antisemitic adj. antisemitism noun.

The Cambridge Dictionary:

anti-Semitic
adjective /ˌæn.ti.sɪˈmɪ.tɪk/ US /-t̬i.sə-/
› having or showing a strong dislike of Jewish people, or treating them in a cruel and unfair way

See a pattern here? You can say "but other people are Semites" all you want to, it doesn't change the fact that "anti-Semitism" only ever means "anti-Jewish" and never means anything else.

[stone space]

10. Weird poll. Weird place for it. (nt)

[Israeli]

11. Mike ....

I'm a Jewish atheist .

.....got something for you to read :

http://andyboy1.com/2011/11/05/atheists-in-israel-oh-my-god/

The founder of Modern Zionism, Theodor Herzl, was an atheist, as were many of Israel’s “Founding Fathers” including its first Prime Minister, David Ben- Gurion. Indeed it would be true to say that, had it not been for a substantial number of non believing Jews, the State of Israel would not have come into being.

BTW so was Yitzhak Rabin .

A high percentage of Israelis identify themselves as secular, rejecting the practice of the Jewish religion (see Religion in Israel). While some non-believers of Jewish ancestry do not consider themselves Jews, preferring to define themselves solely as atheists, Judaism is arguably the paradigm example of the evolution of a culture and tradition that one can embrace without religious faith

In May 2011, Kaniuk petitioned the Israeli Interior Ministry to change his religion status from “Jewish” to “no religion.” He cited the fact that his child and infant grandson, because they are descended from a mixed marriage, are legally of no religion, and his desire not to belong to a “Jewish Iran” or “what is today called the religion of Israel.” In October 2011, a district court judge approved his petition, meaning that Kaniuk is now considered a Jew by nationality, but not by religion. Hundreds of other Israelis intend to do the same; a new verb, lehitkaniuk (to Kaniuk oneself) was coined http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoram_Kaniuk

Hope you have time to read it all Mike .