Who’s Right and Wrong in the Middle East?

[bemildred]

WITH Israeli troops again invading Gaza and the death toll rising, some of the rhetoric from partisans on each side is oddly parallel. Maybe it’s time to correct a few common misconceptions among the salvos flying back and forth.

This is a struggle between good and evil, right and wrong. We can’t relax, can’t compromise, and we had no choice but to act.

On the contrary, this is a war in which both peoples have a considerable amount of right on their sides. The failure to acknowledge the humanity and legitimate interests of people on the other side has led to cross-demonization. That results in a series of military escalations that leave both peoples worse off.

Israelis are absolutely correct that they have a right not to be hit with rockets by Hamas, not to be kidnapped, not to be subjected to terrorist bombings. And Palestinians are absolutely right that they have a right to a state, a right to run businesses and import goods, a right to live in freedom rather than relegated to second-class citizenship in their own land.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/opinion/sunday/nicholas-kristof-whos-right-and-wrong-in-the-middle-east.html

[The Magistrate]

1. Everybody And Everyone, Sir

Next question....

[Lithos]

4. Agreed

You beat me to the buzzer on this one.

L-

[The Magistrate]

5. Just Happened To Be Putting Off Carving A Miniature Propeller, Sir....

Not a part of the process I enjoy, but necessary in this project.

"Mostly I killed time, and it died hard."

[Lithos]

6. What's the airplane?

I am assuming something interwar?

L-

[The Magistrate]

7. No, This Is a Very Old One, Sir

Check your in-box: I will send you a link to the build log.

[bemildred]

11. He makes your argument Sir:

That’s why we need to de-escalate, starting with a cease-fire that includes an end to Hamas rocket attacks and a withdrawal from Gaza by Israel. For Israel, this is a chance to use diplomacy to achieve what gunpowder won’t: the marginalization of Hamas. Israel might suggest an internationally supervised election in Gaza with the promise that the return of control to the Palestinian Authority would mean an end to the economic embargo.

Here we have a conflict between right and right that has been hijacked by hard-liners on each side who feed each other. It’s not that they are the same, and what I see isn’t equivalence. Yet there is, in some ways, a painful symmetry — and one element is that each side vigorously denies that there is any symmetry at all.

Edit: do think it was wise of him to go backpacking after putting his opinion piece up.

[The Magistrate]

12. And For The Record, My Friend

I would say something I will take as a suggestion from you, since t flows naturally from some recent comments of yours, that the best thing Israel could do for itself at present would be to see to it the Palestine Authority had some real police muscle, and enough money people could graft to their heart's content and still deliver sound public services.

[bemildred]

14. Yes, if they want peace, they will have to suck it up and give the PNA some muscle,

and something to lose. I remember that conversation.

Edit: and forgo their habit of butting in all the time.

[villager]

2. Those parallelisms are routinely, predictably echoed here on DU

...with "the Other" always dehumanized, everyone obediently following their scripts...

[FBaggins]

3. Both are in the wrong...

...but Hamas much more so.

[BillZBubb]

9. Why is that?

Hamas views themselves as freedom fighters hoping to free their homeland from a tyrannical occupier. The only way they can take the fight to the much more powerful enemy is through asymmetric warfare. The only weapons they have to do that are crude rockets. That's what they use.

Hamas is certain the Palestinians will NEVER get their land back from Israel through peaceful means. When the Palestinians were passive, the Israelis built bigger and bigger settlements on the Palestinian's land. In Hamas' view the only way to get their land back is to fight, however long it takes.

If Israel wasn't occupying the West Bank, then yes, Hamas would be in the wrong--totally in the wrong. But as long as Israel occupies the land taken in 1967, Israel is mostly in the wrong.

[sabbat hunter]

21. Wrong

because of a couple of reasons
1) Hamas wants to destroy all of israel and any jews it can. It does not want an Israel, but only a Palestine that is jew free from the river to the sea. Hamas's charter calls for this.
2) Hamas in its 'asymmetrical warfare' aims only at civilian targets. Its goal it to terrorize the civilian population

[azurnoir]

22. so the Israeli soldiers Hamas killed earlier today were civilians, I take it ?

truth be told when it comes to rockets or missiles, they can not be specifically aimed at anything, they are fired indiscriminately and that is the problem or one of them

[sabbat hunter]

26. then hamas should not be

launching the rockets or missiles that are unguided. Hamas launches them in the direction of civilians in an effort to kill/terrorize as many as possible.

They could easily launch them in the direction of military targets, but they choose not to.


And I was not speaking of the hand to hand clashes, but the rockets/missiles that Hamas/IJ, et al launch.

[napi21]

8. Everybody is wrong!

I can't imagine why all the different people who reside in the middle east have fought for so many years and still are not able to reach a peaceful resolution.

They don't have to love each other, they can even hate each other, but reach an agreement on who is going to live where and then leave each other alone.

The people from western europe used to fight like that, and THEY finally realized that all this illing is just crazy.

[BillZBubb]

10. Easier said than done...

The Israelis want to annex the prime parts of the West Bank they seized militarily in 1967. The Palestinians rightfully want that land as their state. There cannot be any agreement on this unless the Israelis relent.

Do you see the Israeli's relinquishing the occupied lands they covet without being forced out?

[napi21]

25. Those comments weren't totally mine. Norm Goldman was talking about this topic on

yesterday's show (friday). He's Jewish himself and said exactly the same thing. He also said Israel has to elect a replacement to Netenyahu (S?) because he's way too right wing for any compromise to take place. The Palestinians need to replace Hamas with some less militant leaders. Yes I CAN see it working out, but the people need to replace those that are now in charge.

[azurnoir]

13. Having read the entire piece he starts off well and correctly enough

both sides do have genuine grievances with the other but then and if not predictably rides the train off the tracks with this

That’s why we need to de-escalate, starting with a cease-fire that includes an end to Hamas rocket attacks and a withdrawal from Gaza by Israel. For Israel, this is a chance to use diplomacy to achieve what gunpowder won’t: the marginalization of Hamas. Israel might suggest an internationally supervised election in Gaza with the promise that the return of control to the Palestinian Authority would mean an end to the economic embargo.

what he fails to mention is that end had largely already been accomplished Hamas had been marginalized that is until Israel without producing a shred of evidence-till this day accused Hamas of kidnapping and killing 3 Israeli teenagers and under the aegis of a search for the boys (it was later revealed they knew they were dead all along) proceeded to institute a program of terrorizing Palestinians in the West Bank via raids on homes in which a deal of destruction and we're told looting by IDF took place, same with what we're told were Hamas run institutions, not to mention the shooting deaths of several Palestinians during this time - all of which cumlatively led to where we are now

what Mr Kristof seems to suggesting is that we go back to square one or June 11 2014

[bemildred]

15. Frankly I'd take that deal if we could get it.

But I agree that is not likely, at least for the time being. Neither side would agree to it. You will forgive me, I hope, if I don't get into the who did what to whom first argument right now.

[azurnoir]

16. of course I will it was solely my own observation

based in small part that from the moment Hamas was mentioned I felt that landing where we are right now was almost inevitable

but fwiw and I agree I take that too June 11, the whole thing could be called a 'long distance run around'

[bemildred]

17. Well, it is true that Bibi worked hard to get his war.

And Hamas was more than happy to oblige, it's been like a gift for them. Hamas seems happy to continue, whereas Bibi I think would like to stop now, but doesn't quite know how. So continued sound and fury, accomplishing nothing.

And yeah, I remember that conversation too.

[LeftishBrit]

18. Good article.

I was going to say, 'at least as regards those in power, no one is right and everyone is wrong'; but this article says it better.

[bemildred]

19. I thought it was a pretty fair effort.

I think the right question is: "How do we get out of this mess?" rather than whose fault it is, and that seems to be somewhat his point.

[azurnoir]

20. Envoy says US will work to get Abbas back ruling Gaza after conflict over

Dan Shapiro: ‘We’ll seek to help moderate Palestinians become stronger in Gaza,’ since they’d run it better than ‘Hamas, a terrorist group’

http://www.timesofisrael.com/envoy-says-us-will-work-to-get-abbas-back-ruling-gaza-after-conflict-over/#ixzz37xTg5DtB

I was actually going to post this earlier today but it went into the usual diplomatic blather so quickly that I decided against it

[bemildred]

23. That idea seems to be in the air the last day or so.

I think outside observers or peacekeepers or something would be good, at least for a while, there is a lot of bad blood and mistrust, and some sort of neutral mediator to enforce "transparency" will be necessary to keep everybody honest. And not the USA, which clearly has a side. Here I am fantasizing.

[bemildred]

24. It is worth remembering that getting Fatah back in control of Gaza and the PNA has been

an Israeli objective for a long time, Bibi could call that a win. The question would be how to get Hamas to go along, unless you assume they will be "crushed" militarily, which I think looks unlikely.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. Good article. This bit in particular is so true...

In fact, we’ve seen this movie before: Israel responded to aggression by invading Lebanon in 1982 and 2006, and Gaza in 2008; each time, hawks cheered. Yet each invasion in retrospect accomplished at best temporary military gains while killing large numbers of innocents; they didn’t solve any problems.

You should have posted it in GD while I/P's allowed in there. I've spotted a few people who need to read it....

[bemildred]

28. I am more than willing to share, Vi.

We could use some of your acerbic wit.