Israel’s ground invasion is Hamas’ fault

[King_David]

The Government of the state of Israel has declared in the clearest possible manner that the purpose of the ground incursion which began last night and continues today, is first of all to deal with the “ homicide tunnels” which the Terrorist Army Hamas, has burrowed beneath the borders of, and well into the pre 1967 territory of the state of Israel. The only people who could possibly think of this area as being “ occupied territory” are the same ones who think of Tel Aviv as “ Occupied territory” , or for that matter any square inch of land in this part of the world ,where Israel has the effrontery to declare it’s sovereignty under international law.

In other words, contrary to the perception of some, that the core reason behind this conflict is Israel’s occupation of lands conquered in the defensive war of 1967, Hamas could not, and does not, give a tinker’s damn about “ Occupied territory” . This is so because Hamas regards ANY territory on which there is a sovereignJewish state as, “ Occupied territory”.

Moreover, Hamas believes that any such Jewish state has no right to exist.

Indeed, Hamas believes it is duty bound, by both religious and political ideology, to destroy such a state, on its road to establishing the kind of Caliphate which ISIS is in the process of making a reality. According to both of their ideologies and religious beliefs, everything from the Persian Gulf to Spain, is, by virtue of once having been ruled by Moslems , “ Occupied territory”, which they mean to liberate, by any means possible.

Starting with Israel, of course.

Jews are, and seem always to have been the canaries in the mine. Europe may have thought Hitler would content himself with murdering Jews. To their sorrow they found out otherwise. Churchill referred to such thinking as the vain hope of being the last in the room to be eaten by the tiger


http://www.jewishjournal.com/opinion/article/israels_ground_invasion_is_hamass_fault

[intaglio]

1. So Hamas is to blame for all the ills

Including the Nakba and the refusal of Israel to honour UN General Assembly Resolution 194.

From Alternet "The Heart of the Problem With Israel: The Mass Expulsion of the Palestinian People"

I know you will parrot the official line that "they brought it on themselves" but the expulsion of 700,000 Palestinians happened and was as unjust as the expulsion of the Jews from Jerusalem by Hadrian. That much smaller Roman atrocity has resulted in nearly 1900 of suffering and was justified by the same logic now applied by the Israelis.

[Shaktimaan]

2. No.

They are to blame for the ground invasion. Not "all ills." But the Nakba is hardly the cause of this current situation. To draw such a convoluted conclusion, especially if clarified by a call for an Arab right of return, is essentially saying that the existence of Israel is the core problem and cause of the whole conflict, and therefore any violence that springs from it.

And that article was absurd. Just chock full of false equivalence arguments. See:

In some circles, particularly among “progressive” Zionists, the terrible injustice done to the Palestinians is acknowledged, but as awful as the Nakba was, they say, it was what had to be done to create and ensure the security of the Jewish state. (The most recent proponent of this position is Israeli writer Avi Shavit.) It was a terrible price that had to be paid, he and others concede. To be clear, the price was paid by the Palestinians—that is, the killing and expulsion of Palestinians for the sake of Jewish safety. And quite simply, the only way you can think that – that you can excuse the Nakba– is to believe that Jewish lives matter more than Palestinian lives.

A more accurate interpretation would be the belief that millions of Jewish lives matter more than the displacement of 700,000 Arabs.

Especially when we consider that Israel consists of only .2% of the Arab world; the remaining 99.8% remains Arab... land Jews have been ethically cleansed from all but entirely. In contrast 20% of Israel's citizens are non-Jews.

[intaglio]

3. Equivalence arguments

Especially when we consider that Israel consists of only .2% of the Arab world; the remaining 99.8% remains Arab... land Jews have been ethically cleansed from all but entirely. In contrast 20% of Israel's citizens are non-Jews.

If you cannot see your own bigotry then I think there is no hope for you.

[Shaktimaan]

5. Maybe so...

But I'd still love to hear why you found that statement to be so bigoted.

[cali]

10. oh nonsense. Hamas is partially responsible. Israel is even more responsible.

and how on earth can you judge the importance of the Nakba to those who suffered from it? Absurd. You cannot and you should not.

Israel is screwing itself long term with its current actions in Gaza, it's harsh occupation, it's continuous theft of land, it's oppression and humiliation of Palestinians. Would Hamas even have come to power had Israel not done these things?

I suggest reading this:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2014/07/israel_launches_ground_assault_on_gaza_the_israeli_government_no_longer.html

and read the Avishai piece in the New Yorker that the above article references.

[Loudly]

6. Didn't Pakistan get its start essentially the same way?

Even as dysfunctional and treacherous as they are, they seem to be doing okay.

The jihadists hold a grudge of course. That's kind of their thing.

[intaglio]

8. Well apart from the problem that you are wrong about the history of Pakistan

Why do you think that an equivalence with what you term a "dysfunctional and treacherous" nation applies to Israel? Israel functions pretty well as long as you are a Zionist Israeli.

As to the holding of grudges: I'm pretty sure that the 69 years since the ending of the Shoah is not enough to expunge the ill feeling stemming from that crime so why should the 66 years since the Nakba and the far less time since other Israeli atrocities against the Palestinians expunge the grievance the Palestinians feel?

[Loudly]

11. "Dysfunctional and treacherous" would refer to the PLO/PLA/Fatah & Hamas.

NOT Israel.

And although Hamas was fairly successful at winning hearts and minds for political gain by delivering needed services, it has done so for the ulterior and decidedly unwholesome purpose of Israel's destruction.

Do you think I'm wrong about the history of Pakistan because its population "chose" to flee and abandon their property in India?

In the case of both Pakistan and Palestine, it seems like fleeing and being driven out is a distinction without a difference.

After a quick refresher, I'm going to stand by the comparison as an apt one.

Pakistan moved forward, though, in a manner much more accepting of reality. In contrast to Palestine, which keeps grinding up and serving the same old hash to its people, whom the world wants to help if they would just chill.

[intaglio]

12. Read what you wrote

I knew you were defending a beloved country but had put in an unintended and apt double entendre

As to the rest of your nonsense, well go talk to a Pakistani Islamic and a Hindu Indian. The split in the Raj was mutually, if rancorously, agreed, it was not imposed by one party or the other. The both the Mughal Emperors and Raj imposed an oppressive administrative unity on the petty states that made up the governed areas of the Subcontinent, although some of those states did maintain their rulers. The transportation of the millions at partition; Hindus from Pakistan and East Pakistan (now Bangladesh), and Muslims from India, was also mutually agreed. Contrast that with the Nakba and the refusal of Israel to follow Resolution 194.

[azurnoir]

4. where to begin here

I find the reliance of a nuclear armed nation on the 'devil made us do it' type excuses to explain its actions as opposed to taking responsibility for what are clearly their choices of action somewhat discomforting

that said this OP comes from the same publication that raced within an hour or two of the body of Mohammed Abu Khdeir being to put out there that not only was this an honor killing but that Arabs had already been arrested for it

Arabs from Shuafat claim the boy was kidnapped by Jews in a revenge attack, and certain Israeli elements rushed to lay suspicion on Jews for the act.

The area were the kidnapping happened has security cameras installed, and police are reviewing the footage.

There are unconfirmed reports that police have arrested a number of Arab suspects who were found driving in a car matching the description of the kidnapping vehicle, with suspicious items in the car.

Hadas Shteif of Galei Tzahal reports there was a failed attempt last week to kidnap the boy’s 7 year old brother, and this appears to be a fight between clans, and related to family “honor”

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/body-of-arab-boy-found-in-jerusalem-forest/2014/07/02/

[bemildred]

9. If they resist violently, it means they need to be put down.

If they resist peacefully, it means they need to be oppressed violently until they resist violently.
If they don't resist, it means it's OK to exploit and ignore them and continue expropriating their property and livlihoods.

[shira]

13. What Hamas is doing isn't violent resistance. It's attempted murder....

...of both Israelis and their own citizens who they want killed for cynical PR purposes. It's due to extreme radical hatred. There is absolutely nothing reasonable Israel can do to appease Hamas.

To explain away or minimize what Hamas is doing is perverse. There is absolutely nothing noble or just in what they are doing. No one should be justifying their crimes against humanity. What they are doing is ANTI-Palestinian, as it does nothing to help or defend Palestinians.

[bemildred]

15. Violent resistance generally is attempted murder. What do you think it is? nt

[shira]

14. We'll begin with your argument that Israel isn't forced into anything....

As if they haven't given Hamas a way out with a ceasefire.

You believe Israel's civilians should just take it, run into and out of bomb shelters forever, and wait for Iron Dome to eventually fail (it's not perfect). Casualties will mount at a slow pace & collective punishment from rockets everywhere in Israel will continue...

Not.An.Option.

No other nation would take it. Neither will Israel.