Qalandiya Checkpoint, March 2014: An obstacle to normal life

[Jefferson23]

Human rights violations under the occupation are not limited to cases of violence, death and destruction. They are also part of the routine life of Palestinian residents, as shaped by Israeli authorities.

Qalandiya Checkpoint is a prominent example of this routine. It separates between Palestinian communities, between neighborhoods artificially severed from each other by the Separation Barrier. Most of the people who cross the checkpoint are residents of East Jerusalem who need to reach other parts of the city for work, school, or basic medical treatment.

In most cases, these residents live only several kilometers away from their destinations, but every day they have to wait for hours in the long lines at the checkpoint, which currently has only three active security screening stations for cars and four for pedestrians – and not all of them operate all the time. When finally reached, the security screening is often a humiliating and lengthy procedure.

‘Amer ‘Aruri, B’Tselem’s field researcher in East Jerusalem, documented the long lines of people waiting at Qalandiya Checkpoint on 19 March 2014.
http://www.btselem.org/photoblog/201404_qalandiya_checkpoint

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[shira]

1. No checkpoints and more suicide bombings is a bigger obstacle to normal life. n/t

[Jefferson23]

2. Yes, Israel's government has always maintained that collective punishment/restrictions

of movement is justified.

Restriction of movement

http://www.btselem.org/topic/freedom_of_movement

[shira]

5. Yes, Israel haters have always been in favor of collective punishment (suicide bombings).....

Last edited Thu Apr 3, 2014, 01:47 PM - Edit history (1)

...against the dastardly Jewish Zionists.

That kind of collective punishment is perfectly acceptable.

[Jefferson23]

13. I am glad you can recognize collective punishment as does B'Tselem..an Israeli HR group against it.

[azurnoir]

3. An effective way of reminding Palestinians you are all to blame for what anyone of you does

and we are willing and able to punish you forever

[shira]

4. So without checkpoints, what do u suggest? Israelis should be willing to be blown up? n/t

[azurnoir]

7. so that's it eh Palestinians are murderers each and everyone of them cradle to grave?

that is what must be believed to justify such tactics as this a never ending state of martial law for the Palestinians

[shira]

8. Again, w/o checkpoints what do u suggest in order to protect Israeli citizens? Well....

...obviously you're suggesting the Israelis should indeed allow bombers into Jewish neighborhoods in order to blow themselves up. I'd believe differently if you suggested something reasonable as an alternative. But you didn't. So what else am I to suspect?

Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

[azurnoir]

9. perhaps a bit of it's famed intellegence info to pin point who may or may not be a 'terrorist'

but that would not be getting the message across would it? At least not in a broad all encompassing way

[shira]

10. Our airport security is obviously collective punishment too. Very humiliating, long lines....

...long waits. And for what?



Don't we here in America have our own famed intelligence to best pinpoint the 'terrorists'?

[azurnoir]

11. well Israel's was enough that the US declined a visa waiver due to it

and look around here, you'll find plenty of complaints against the TSA but then again we don't base our airport security on who belongs to what ethnic/religious group

[shira]

12. So both Israel and the USA require checkpoints for security purposes...

You know, there were no checkpoints or wall/fence prior to Oslo back in the 90's. There was total freedom of access both ways.

While everyone would certainly prefer that situation again, you are pretending there's absolutely no rational reason Israel doesn't allow for unrestricted free access now. Why the pretense?



Tell me, if it were up to you and you were to stop the checkpoints, and more suicide attacks started again, then what? What would you say? What would you do? You're in charge. Israelis are now being collectively punished with more and more attacks due to your anti-checkpoint policy.

Your move.

[azurnoir]

14. if everyone has prefered it the situation would have returned to normal after the 2nd intifada ended

obviously one side benefits greatly form the oppression of Palestinians

[shira]

20. You can't be serious. If even 1 bomber gets through out of every 500 @ the checkpoints.....

...that would result in at least several suicide bombings daily with dozens injured or killed on a daily basis.

I asked you what you would do if you were to take away the checkpoints and suicide bombings started all up again. What would you do in response? Bring them back? Apologize? What, pray tell?

How about an honest answer this time?

[azurnoir]

21. and what if they did not start again?

but of course you must pretend that they will because once agai n you seem to know all about those people Itamar Marcus says so

[shira]

22. Some foiled terror attacks from 2012:

http://www.idfblog.com/2012/05/10/the-2012-terror-attacks-against-israel-you-never-heard-about/

So w/o checkpoints, many people would have died needlessly.

More:
http://www.idfblog.com/2013/05/06/reality-check-the-truth-behind-crossings-in-judea-and-samaria/


Are you under the pretense that no Palestinians since the end of Intifada 2 have tried getting through checkpoints?

[azurnoir]

23. Lol from IDF the first line justifiers BTW the weapons smuggling charge is proof positive of

APARTHEID yes indeed it is because Jewish settlers are supplied with M-16 's but Palestinians carrying a rock are charged with weapons violations

I haven't made any pretenses here

you wish us to ignore the day to day casual brutality exercised by IDF against Palestinians on a regular basis, oh wait that doesn't happen unless IDF reports it-right?

If any of these incidents had been really a danger they would have been shouted from the rooftops long before now

[shira]

27. Ask your friend "Israeli" whether checkpoints are still stopping terror attacks. n/t

[King_David]

16. Unfortunatly history shows

That without these checkpoints there's Passover massacres and bomb massacres and pizza and disco children massacres.

These checkpoints are protective and a great nuisance to those planning on murdering Jews in cold blood.

No choice.

[azurnoir]

17. so this has always happened or is it more like if they do it once

they'll do it again 'cause ya know how those people are?

[Jefferson23]

19. Note the concern for settler violence and the IDF who protect them....sad. n/t

[azurnoir]

24. Nope nor any for the 6000+ Palestinians who have died at Israeli hands

since 9/2000 nor any of the other daily brutalities inflicted on Palestinians

[King_David]

29. Hamas never stopped

So it's not a maybe..

To answer your question :

Yes they definitely would attempt to massacre Jews again... Thankful to those checkpoints and the wall for stopping most of those attempted massacres.

[azurnoir]

30. so your saying punish them all and let??? sort it out?

or is it sorted enough for you?

[King_David]

32. A security checkpoint isn't punishment ,

It's life saving .

And they should remain until no longer necessary.

[azurnoir]

34. 'They' (Palestinians) remain for hours and that is known fact

while settlers are waived through

[shira]

35. While Arab settlers are waived through too, right? n/t

[azurnoir]

41. see above n/t

[King_David]

38. Well the a settlers are a threat on one side of the checkpoint and not the other side .

It makes the checkpoint faster and more efficient and cuts down on wait times.

[azurnoir]

42. They are a threat on either side of the check points n/t

[King_David]

44. This is the problem ,

There needs be a certain amount of knowledge and baseline expertise in this conflicts especially when engaging in discussion.

[azurnoir]

46. extremist settlers are a danger on either side of the Green line or border

are you denying that? If so you're right about needing knowledge

[King_David]

47. The checkpoints

Are doing a fantastic job preventing suicide maniacs commuting mass murder.

There really is no substitute for seeing for oneself in this conflict . A visit to Israel at the time of Tel Aviv Gay Pride is unique - thousands of international visitors so book early if you want a hotel room but be warned you have to be very discreet and go back into the closet if planning on taking in any tourist sites in neighboring Palestine.

[azurnoir]

56. Oh I'm sorry I didn't realize you were speaking of the border at Tel Aviv

how many checkpoints are there at TelAviv's border?

[King_David]

59. As I said it's difficult for those with no ties and those

who have never ever even been to the region to see for themselves . Imagining you understand this conflict is no substitute for seeing for yourself ... No matter how much you identify and support another peoples in their conflict... It doesn't cut actually having visited or lived their like most of us posting on this side of the fence.

We have lived there and so do our families currently live there-- that's howecone we are involved--- on one side of this forum.

[azurnoir]

61. Once again what checkpoints are there at Tel Aviv? you were going on about security checkpoints

so please enlighten us about Tel Aviv's security checkpoints, does one need to pass through them to enter the city, can you provide us with pictures too? Maybe statistics as to how many pass through them daily?

[King_David]

62. LOL

How big do you think the Jewish State is?

You ever been there?

[azurnoir]

64. Once again what security checkpoints exist at the 'borders' of Tel Aviv

and yes I am aware of Israel's size smaller than Jordan or Egypt and larger than Lebanon

[King_David]

65. Ok ...

[sabbat hunter]

6. as an occupying power

Israel has the right and responsibility for these checkpoints to insure the safety of everyone.

Can and should they make it quicker and easier to get thru? Probably.

But the checkpoints are perfectly legal.

[Jefferson23]

18. Freedom of movement– Gaza blockade and West Bank restrictions

The myriad restrictions imposed by the Israeli authorities on the movement of Palestinians amounted to collective punishment of the population of Gaza and the West Bank, in violation of international law.
Over 500 Israeli checkpoints and barriers in the West Bank, as well as the fence/wall, restricted Palestinians’ movement, particularly in East Jerusalem, part of Hebron, the Jordan Valley and areas near settlements.


Palestinians were required to obtain permits from the Israeli authorities while Israelis, including settlers, enjoyed free movement in these areas. There were continued reports of harassment and abuse of Palestinians at checkpoints by Israeli personnel. Movement restrictions also impeded Palestinians’ access to medical care, water and farmland.

As Israel’s military blockade of the Gaza Strip entered its sixth year, its impact on basic infrastructure, including water, sanitation and power supplies continued to be severe. Israel continued to severely limit exports from and imports to Gaza, stifling its economy and driving the perilous underground smuggling trade from Egypt, which continued to claim the lives of those using the tunnels. More people were able to travel through the Rafah border crossing with Egypt than during previous years, despite continuing restrictions, but permits for travel to the West Bank remained rare and difficult to obtain, even for patients requiring urgent medical treatment. In September, Israel’s High Court of Justice affirmed this policy of separating Gaza from the West Bank, rejecting a petition by Gazan women seeking to study at West Bank universities.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2013

[sabbat hunter]

45. amnesty international is wrong on this one

both the blockade and the checkpoints are allowed under international war. As an occupying power Israel has the right to have check points in the WB.
For Gaza,as it is basically a war zone, Israel has the right to impose a blockade under international law.

In 2011, a UN committee concluded in the Palmer Report that the naval blockade is legal.

Note, the legality of the checkpoints in the WB is completely separate from the settlements which are illegal.

Furthermore Israel does not control the Rafah border that Gaza has with Egypt.

[Jefferson23]

50. I have no idea who you are citing as a source, but we will have to agree to disagree.

Where we do agree, more importantly, is that the Palestinians are entitled to a viable state, which
they clearly have rights to under international law. Will the US broker be a fair broker? Imo, not if
they can help it..no. On that point we may disagree as well.

I do appreciate your input in this group and enjoy our exchanges.

[sabbat hunter]

67. The palmer report

http://www.un.org/News/dh/infocus/middle_east/Gaza_Flotilla_Panel_Report.pdf

page 44 note 82 states how the blockade is legal.


I will find the sources on the legality of the blockades later, I have to go look in on my friends cats right now.

[Jefferson23]

69. snip*The Palmer Report did judge the Gaza blockade to be legal

which is contradicted by other investigations, most directly another UN fact-finding mission working under the auspices of the Human Rights Council, which found the blockade to be illegal under international law. Relying on the judgment of the Palmer Report is a curious journalistic decision, since its assessment of the Gaza blockade is so at odds with an array of other legal judgments on the same issue, including the Red Cross.

http://www.fair.org/blog/2012/11/02/nyts-gaza-flotilla-flop/

[sabbat hunter]

70. since the HRC was formed

about 46% of its reports have condemned israel, while making statements against places like sudan "expressing deep concern"

Additionally in 2012 the HRC facilitated a conference that featured Hamas politicians. Sudan, which has been condemned by other human rights groups, is likely to get a seat on the HRC in the near future.

So I take anything the HRC says with a HUGE grain of salt, as they definitely have an anti-Israel bias

[Jefferson23]

71. Israel's government does not recognize any legitimate body of critics..the US being one of them

with our recent human rights report.

As the link I left for you makes clear, there are more legal opinions among them, including the Red Cross.

It is important to have as many groups as possible commit to HR conferences..you hope to have
them agree to abide by and participate and not be an abuser of universal human rights...it is
a positive step to have Hamas attend.

[sabbat hunter]

72. problem is

Hamas is an abuser of human rights. As are countries like Sudan. Yet sudan may get a seat on the HRC despite those widespread abuses.
You don't reward a group like Hamas for something that they MAY do in the future, but ignore what they have done in the past and are continuing to do.


HRC for some reason has a history of anti-israel bias, while ignoring other countries abuses (which include things like torture, massacres, etc)

[Jefferson23]

73. Israel should get a seat..you could say the same about any country that abuses HR's.

So Hamas should be encouraged...not discouraged.

The United States ignores every abuse Israel is responsible for..not sure who they accommodate
like that other than Israel...that is a serious problem for those who do have a seat at the table.

[King_David]

15. These checkpoints are a big nuisance to those planning attacks against Israeli Jews

It's not collective punishment as it's not punishment ... It's preventive .
It saves lives.
It works __ that's why suicide bombs stopped .

[azurnoir]

25. so according to you anyone (Palestinian) who finds the check points a 'nuisance' is planning

to attack Israeli's?

King_David
15. These checkpoints are a big nuisance to those planning attacks against Israeli Jews

View profile
It's not collective punishment as it's not punishment ... It's preventive .
It saves lives.
It works __ that's why suicide bombs stopped .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113461196#post15


and yes it is collective punishment as you the innocent are judged and treated as guilty, unless of course you believe all Palestinians are guilty?

[shira]

26. It's no more collective punishment than any other border control, airport security, etc....

But what's obvious here is that u believe the Israelis should just allow suicide bombings & other terror attacks to resume.

You wouldn't allow Israel to do anything in response.

[azurnoir]

28. Unlike any other border control it is ethnically motivated nationality does not matter

If you are ethnically an Arab whether Palestinian, Jordanian , American or any other country on Earth you are targeted.

As far as the rest you simply make up accusations we're used to it, the last resort when you've got nothing

[shira]

33. Oh bullshit. Arab Israelis are exempt from them. It's all about nationality.

Enough with the sanctimonious faux outrage.

[azurnoir]

36. would those be the same Israeli Arabs you claim reside in setlements such as Itamar

and Tel Rumeida, those Israeli Arabs ?

[shira]

39. You can pretend there are no Israeli Arabs living in settlements. n/t

[azurnoir]

40. and you seem to pretend there are in fact you've claimed thousands are

now are you counting East Jerusalem as a settlement?

[shira]

43. What's fascinating is that you don't consider all the Jewish settlements around Jerusalem....

...beyond the green line, as settlements.

That way you can pretend the 1000's of Arabs - who have chosen to move into those settlements with the Jews there - don't count.

[King_David]

49. Could you make up your mind?

Or tell us where you studied the Middle East to gain your knowledge?


You say in this post :

"If you are ethnically an Arab whether Palestinian, Jordanian "


In this post :

You inform us :

"69. Arab is defined as speakers of the Arabic language not an ethnic group in the common sense n/t"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=60365



Where do you get your info from that it changes day to day ?

[azurnoir]

51. are they all not Arabic speaking?

then what's your point nothing in the 2 conflicts but it was a 'nice' try

[King_David]

52. Try , hit , scored.

It's there to see.

Cheers.

[azurnoir]

53. yep I did score thanks for acknowledging that fact

and your own 'accidental' misinterpretation of my original post by extension

[King_David]

57. Ok no problem ,sure....

Your doing great. , remember this is not an easy conflict to understand and most of us involved were born and brought up thinking it's our homeland and birthright and learning about it all since a young age.

It's not easy for newbies who aren't even involved in the conflict to readily understand it , even those who have adopted the cause as their own for whatever motive.

Some posting here are more "Palestinian than Palestinians"

[azurnoir]

58. so you believe Israel is your homeland do you live there?

oh and about these gems

It's not easy for newbies who aren't even involved in the conflict to readily understand it , even those who have adopted the cause as their own for whatever motive.

as for newbie I'm not quite sure what your talking about, but I'm sure you do. Now about motives you seem to like to mention that sort of thing frequently , but are you able to say exactly what are thinking about motives, or is it a thoughtless comment?

[King_David]

60. I'm Jewish

That's enough to make Israel my homeland 100% .

But in my particular case my grandparents were born in British Mansate Palestine ( as Israel was called before-- look it up )

My brothers , sisters , cousins , aunts , uncles and boyfriends live there...

Fuck Sure it's my homeland .

Why don't I live there currently ?

Who says ?

[azurnoir]

63. I just asked if you currently reside in Israel ? If you do not wish to answer I understand

all you need do is say that

[King_David]

66. I don't answer personal questions for security reasons.

[King_David]

31. No why not let me speak for myself instead of your inventions. Shall we ?

According to me and evidence , Hamas never has given up the dream of massacre of Jews.

Small price to pay to protect the innocents these checkpoints and the wall are....

They must remain until there is 100% no threat.

As a Jew I wouldn't sleep well living next door to a raving Hamas lunatic nor an Islamic Jihad murderer without a wall or checkpoint depressing us.

That's just me as a Jew who would be a target ( let alone a Gay Jew = double hate)

[azurnoir]

37. I asked you questions I made no definitive statements

and it's a small price to pay when you are not paying it

[King_David]

48. Why copy and paste my excellent posts ?

Better exposure?

Seems like an echo .

Nice and thank you

[Mosby]

54. San Ysidro checkpoint - April 2014

Current wait time is 2 hours. 1 hour 15 minutes for pedestrians.

http://traffic.calit2.net/border/border-wait-times.php?type=passenger&sub=standard&port=250401






When are we going to stop this collective punishment and humiliation? How dare Americans stop and search people coming into the country.

[Jefferson23]

55. False equivalent, to say the least. But it is worth a mention that in the US, like Israel's

government, there are assholes in the body politic who expressed their bigotry to
advocate for electric wire on the top of fences on the border.

Touche, Mosby.

[shira]

68. Definite war crime. Apartheid. Collective Punishment. n/t

[Ken Burch]

74. Small point of information: why are there huge boulders in the traffic medium in that first photo?

Are they relics of some ancient structures? Or are they meant to play some sort of a safety role?